Car Deal

A friend of mine is selling his car and after initial meeting with potential buyer (I was there too) he asked the quesion: "Is he going to buy my car?" They both seemed very interested in completing the deal so I expected to see an "easy chart" only to come up with this confusing (at least for me) chart. This happend 8 days ago (04. 10. 2013. 23:25) and the matter still can go either way. So far they made some sort of verbal agreement but nothing concrete, like buyer showing up with his money.
I must say that chart very accurately describes the "real life" situation, except I am not sure of the final outcome.

There are three important questions concerning this chart:

1. Is it safe to be judged, ASC Lord is combust?
2. Is it possible to have positive outcome when ASC Lord is combust?
3. Can planet on the ASC perfect the matter?

First of all, The Lord of ASC (Moon) is in terrible state. She is in applying combustion within one degree.

In p. 300 of CA Lilly says:

"The Lord of the ASC out of his essential dignities, cadent etc shows the querent is out of all hope in his business"

"Beware in all Judgments, when the Significator of the question is either Combust, or in Opposition to the Sun, he will then signifie nothing of the matter, no good, nor be able to bring anything to perfection. "

John Frawley says that ASC Lord combust may represent a person in state of panic and confusion, and also whoever and whatever is signified by combust planet cannot either see or be seen.

This accurately describes the querent who lost his job six months ago and pressed by incoming bills is trying to get some money fast.

Moon is also on VINDEMIATRIX (the famous widow-maker). It is associated with divorce, separation and overstretching. With Moon: Worry, many disappointments, loss through law or writings and theft, bad health, failure in business. (Robson)

I'm not sure if it is of any significance in this question (except "failure in business" part) but it is pretty much an evil star so it cannot be good omen.

Moon in opposition with Uranus?! I don't know what to say about this or is it best just to ignore it?

Lord 2 (the car) is represented by Sun in Libra. Sun is in it's FALL, showing that car is not in good shape. When they went to mechanic he found a problem with the car, minor one but still some 200 euros is needed for repairment.
Sun is also Lord 3, the price (profit from the car) which is droping, the Querent is lowering the price.

Buyer and his money are represented by Saturn in Scorpio (Lord 7 and Lord 8). He likes the car (Sun in Saturn's exaltation) but he is in Moon's FALL, not good for the deal.

There is no aspect between buyer and the querent which could show closing of the deal.

Fortuna is querent's treasure or could show the thing asked about. Fortuna in 1st could mean the car stays with him.

So far, a big NO.

But, what about Jupiter? Jupiter conjuncts ASC and he is extra strong in he's exaltation. There is going to be a trine between Jupiter and Saturn (Jupiter will be retrograde at the time), but also a case of prohibition, Mercury conjuncts Saturn first. If Jupiter represents the querent that could mean the closing of the deal. Mercury is maybe showing trouble with the mechanic. Jupiter and Saturn are in mutual reception by triplicity. Also, Jupiter is in Saturn's detriment.

Situation is not resolved yet, so it is a good chart for practise. I will know the outcome when it happens and I will post it.

That is a good analysis of the chart. Jupiter seems to be the one hope that the deal will go through: The trine aspect, mutual reception, exaltation and angular position. Do let us know what happens.

Culpeper said:

That is a good analysis of the chart. Jupiter seems to be the one hope that the deal will go through: The trine aspect, mutual reception, exaltation and angular position. Do let us know what happens.

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It does look like there is a problem with the car, but let us look at the potential buyer, Saturn, who is in feminine sign, quadrant and degree, as well as a void degree...meaning Saturn is doing something against his nature, and void means perhaps not well thought out. In this case, Saturn is completely out of sect as it is a night chart...and this actually works in the favor of the querent. Venus, the ruler of the sign in which the "car" is posited, is in joy and in agreement with Saturn, though separating.

My newbie take is that yes, the buyer will purchase the car, though perhaps for less than the asking price, and the buyer will do so for an unusual reason. Here in the States, it might be for gambling/racing purposes...as in to use for a demolition derby, or some other strange reason.

I am not too sure if I get the house right. Got no idea what I am doing just have a go to practice. I assume Asc is your friend, and 7th is the buyer.

1st house Jupiter in Cancer tight enough with Part of Fortune. While the anti POF is on the buyer side, he may pay too much for this car. Moon in Libra, combusted by Sun but does it really matter if we consider the final dispositor? Not sure. Moon in Libra in 4th house>Venus>Mars>Sun>Venus>Mars, it seem both Venus and Mars are walking together here. 2nd and 5th are positive houses, but Venus is the dipositor of Mars the car yer, maybe the car isn't in very good condition.

7th Capricorn Saturn in Scorpio, Mars in Leo, Sun in Libra, Venus in Scorpio so Mars is the final dispositor in the 2nd house. This car is the Buyter's interest. Saturn rules the 8th house, Mars the possession will be his. So I think he will buy.

tsmall said:

It does look like there is a problem with the car, but let us look at the potential buyer, Saturn, who is in feminine sign, quadrant and degree, as well as a void degree...meaning Saturn is doing something against his nature, and void means perhaps not well thought out. In this case, Saturn is completely out of sect as it is a night chart...and this actually works in the favor of the querent. Venus, the ruler of the sign in which the "car" is posited, is in joy and in agreement with Saturn, though separating.

My newbie take is that yes, the buyer will purchase the car, though perhaps for less than the asking price, and the buyer will do so for an unusual reason. Here in the States, it might be for gambling/racing purposes...as in to use for a demolition derby, or some other strange reason.

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That is excellent analysis. The buyer is a young person who is getting married next year, as he told so, and it's a sports car, so he's doing something completely inappropriate considering his situation.
And if I may add, Saturn being in succedent house and passive fixed sign is showing why it takes so much time for him to make up his mind, but once he makes a decision he won't change it.

This is a straight buyer/seller chart. Seller is the 1st house. Buyer is the 7th house. The price is the 10th and the goods are the 4th.

It should be remembered that the 2nd house is given to moveable objects. While a car is certainly moveable, you cannot lift it - which is what the definition means. The 2nd house is for small objects, the 4th house is for big objects.

So, Mercury is for the car - which is appropriate - and Saturn is the buyer. Both are conjunct the North Node and Mercury applies to a conjunction with Saturn. Testimony then that the car is sold to the buyer.

But.... Mercury is peregrine, Saturn is peregrine, the Moon (the seller) is peregrine and combust. The 10th house (the price) is ruled by Jupiter and Jupiter is exalted on the ascendant. This is Jupiter in excess - the price is too high. Note too that the Moon is square to Jupiter, so this exalted Jupiter is not good for the seller.

The Part of Fortune is on the ascendant, but it always is when the Moon is combust, so it is difficult to know what that means. What is true is that both lights are square to the PoF and that is not good.

My feeling is that there is insufficient energy in this chart to bring about the perfection promised by Mercury applying to Saturn.

Thank you for explaining that Harold. I will practice more and remember what you mentioned here.

First of all, thank you for your detailed analysis Harold!

Harold said:

It should be remembered that the 2nd house is given to moveable objects. While a car is certainly moveable, you cannot lift it - which is what the definition means. The 2nd house is for small objects, the 4th house is for big objects.

So, Mercury is for the car - which is appropriate - and Saturn is the buyer. Both are conjunct the North Node and Mercury applies to a conjunction with Saturn. Testimony then that the car is sold to the buyer.

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I follow Frawley on this, but I'm always open to learn and improve!

2nd house ...It shows the querent's movable possessions. If it cannot be moved (e.g. your house or land) or if it is animate, it cannot truly be possessed. If it's yours, inanimate and can be moved, it belongs here. So your car is shown by your 2nd house: it's yours and can be moved. It is not 3rd: remember the distinction between the thing itself and the function of that thing...
4th house ...Your immovable possessions: houses and property. Your holiday home in Spain is still 4th house: it is your property that happens to be abroad; there is nothing 9th house about it. Your orchard and all that grows in it - including that potted plant in your living room...

So, he speaks about MOVABLE possessions, not LIFTABLE. The thing can be moved without being lifted.

I have to say, I judged this chart as a NO. But course of the events might prove me wrong. This is why this chart is so interesting to me, I want to learn on my mistakes...

I had a little trouble keeping the chart in view but have it now. In this chart the querent is Cancer/Moon. The potential buyer is Capricorn/Saturn. The car is the 4th house. I use whole sign houses mostly so the 4th here is Libra/Venus. The 10th house is Aries/Mars which is the price of the car. The 2nd house Leo/Sun is the querent's money. The 8th house/Mercury is the buyer's money. Mercury is the triplicity ruler of Aquarius as Saturn cannot be used twice as a significator. Sales charts can be complicated.

Venus as significator of the car is in detriment in the 5th house. The car is not in the best condition and has some issues. Saturn the buyer will think that the asking price is too high and wants it lower. This is indicated by the money significators. The Sun has strength in the 4th house but is in its fall. The seller wants a high price but will have to take less in the end. The buyer's money significator has essential dignity of triplicity and term and has some leverage of the seller and wants a lower price.

The biggest difficulty seen in this chart is a lack of any applying aspects between significators. Especially since Venus/car is separating from Saturn/buyer. I have found that no matter how auspicious the chart if the significators are separating, the deal will not go through.

Culpeper said:

I had a little trouble keeping the chart in view but have it now. In this chart the querent is Cancer/Moon. The potential buyer is Capricorn/Saturn. The car is the 4th house. I use whole sign houses mostly so the 4th here is Libra/Venus. The 10th house is Aries/Mars which is the price of the car. The 2nd house Leo/Sun is the querent's money. The 8th house/Mercury is the buyer's money. Mercury is the triplicity ruler of Aquarius as Saturn cannot be used twice as a significator. Sales charts can be complicated.

Venus as significator of the car is in detriment in the 5th house. The car is not in the best condition and has some issues. Saturn the buyer will think that the asking price is too high and wants it lower. This is indicated by the money significators. The Sun has strength in the 4th house but is in its fall. The seller wants a high price but will have to take less in the end. The buyer's money significator has essential dignity of triplicity and term and has some leverage of the seller and wants a lower price.

The biggest difficulty seen in this chart is a lack of any applying aspects between significators. Especially since Venus/car is separating from Saturn/buyer. I have found that no matter how auspicious the chart if the significators are separating, the deal will not go through.

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Thank you Culpeper for this chart analysis.

I have noticed that many of senior members with outstanding knowledge and experience are using whole sign houses when it comes to horary. Obviously, they have a good reason to do so. Do you recommend it as the house system that gave you the best results throughout your practice?

Cap said:

If it cannot be moved (e.g. your house or land) or if it is animate, it cannot truly be possessed.

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All I can say is that this was said by someone who has never paid his mortgage off and who - despite having lived in the same house for twenty five years - can walk in the front door feeling for the first time that his house, finally, truly belongs to him.

I have to say, I judged this chart as a NO.

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Well. I do too. That is the art of astrology. There is one true answer, but many ways to get there.

Culpeper said:

I had a little trouble keeping the chart in view but have it now. In this chart the querent is Cancer/Moon. The potential buyer is Capricorn/Saturn. The car is the 4th house. I use whole sign houses mostly so the 4th here is Libra/Venus. The 10th house is Aries/Mars which is the price of the car. The 2nd house Leo/Sun is the querent's money. The 8th house/Mercury is the buyer's money. Mercury is the triplicity ruler of Aquarius as Saturn cannot be used twice as a significator. Sales charts can be complicated.

Venus as significator of the car is in detriment in the 5th house. The car is not in the best condition and has some issues. Saturn the buyer will think that the asking price is too high and wants it lower. This is indicated by the money significators. The Sun has strength in the 4th house but is in its fall. The seller wants a high price but will have to take less in the end. The buyer's money significator has essential dignity of triplicity and term and has some leverage of the seller and wants a lower price.

The biggest difficulty seen in this chart is a lack of any applying aspects between significators. Especially since Venus/car is separating from Saturn/buyer. I have found that no matter how auspicious the chart if the significators are separating, the deal will not go through.

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Culpepper, I had the chart in view but was more focused on the potential buyer, and that Jupiter is seriously a factor to consider. I know that in horary charts we always want to look for an applying aspect between the significators. I value your input. If you have a chart where a planet who seems unrelated to the question is doing something significant, do you diseregard that planet, or do you look to figure out why?

Jupiter will hang out in Cancer for about a year. But in queries, Jupiter adhering to the ASC, when the ASC is in a cardinal sign, ought to have significance?

(Following is not in accordance with standard horary practice and uses whole sign hoiuse format)

Dragon's Tail in the 11th whole sign house of the seller (querent) does not bode well for the seller realizing what he hopes for. Other than this, from the Ankara horary perspective, there are mixed indications, so I would not be able to venture a conclusion either way*...

Using the non-horary Walis Magic 8 Ball divination, buyer = "other person" = 7th house = Capricorn = Saturn = a "no" answer, according to the 8 Ball...


(* I would take the car as signified by the 2nd house, since the car is a personal and moveable possession; querent's concern over the car is shown by combusted conjunction of querent's significator Moon with car significator Sun; notice the Sun is in its sign of Fall; although I rarely bring outers into horary, I also notice that both significators Moon and Sun are in partile opposition to Uranus, characterized by all kinds of sudden development and unexpected happenings-not a favorable indication for querent vis a vis the sale of the car)

CONCLUSION

My friend informed me today that he sold the car. He told me that the buyer, after considering other options, accepted the asking price.

So,

1. ASC Lord is combust, is this chart safe to be judged (radical)?

Personally, I don't believe in considerations before judgement. Universe doesn't stop working. But that's matter of opinion.

2. Is it possible to have positive outcome when ASC Lord is combust?

Obviously YES. Lilly's theory goes down the toilet.

3. Can planet on ASC perfect the matter?

Well, I don't see any other possible explanation. Jupiter on ASC represents the querent.

I'd like to thank you all for participating.

Special thanks for tsmall and poyi who got it right.

Thanks for the feed back. As I usually say Jupiter saves the day.

tsmall: A benefic very good condition and aspect may bring a positive result even though it is not one of the significators.

Just as the exalted Jupiter in the ascendant of the US government shutdown chart continues to save the US from financial detriment due the shutdown, so too here does exalted Jupiter in the ascendant bring success to the querent, probably further enhanced by the conjunction of Jupiter with the Part of Fortune, there in that first house.
Using the Ankara horary, I noticed these + testimonies (as well as querent significator Moon flowing to buyer significator Saturn, always a + indication in the Ankara methodology) but the positives were too mixed with other - testimonies (a couple of which latter I mentioned in my earlier post) for me to be able to prognosticate either way.

Thank you, very much, for posting the outcome. So often we don't get to see the answer.

Cap said:

CONCLUSION


Well, I don't see any other possible explanation. Jupiter on ASC represents the querent.

tsmall and poyi who got it right.

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No, Moon still represents the querent. What I think we missed (at least I did) is that the chart does not stand still. Moon represents the querent, Moon represents the querent's state of mind (and next aspect of the Moon will tell us the querent's hopes and wishes, as in what the querent is looking to achieve) and Moon represents the timing of the chart.

Jupiter rules the MC. And the Moon moves in the chart. Nothing stays static.

tsmall said:

No, Moon still represents the querent. What I think we missed (at least I did) is that the chart does not stand still. Moon represents the querent, Moon represents the querent's state of mind (and next aspect of the Moon will tell us the querent's hopes and wishes, as in what the querent is looking to achieve) and Moon represents the timing of the chart.

Jupiter rules the MC. And the Moon moves in the chart. Nothing stays static.

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What I meant to say is that Jupiter is the querent's co-significator along with the Moon because of it's tight conjunction with ASC. Then can bring positive outcome.

Other possibility (what I missed) is translation of light. and later but that would imply involvement of the 3rd party which wasn't the case. What bothers me in this theory is double case of prohibition: first, and also

In any case, Moon is weak and doesn't have the power to pull it of. On the other hand, Jupiter is very strong and does have the power to act.

It's also interesting that Jupiter conjuncts Arabic part of success at 19CAN17

Thank you very much for this good exercise and providing us feedback for learning! Horary with outcome from querent actually really fun!