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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 04-26-2014, 06:17 PM
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Twins

I posted this in the Traditional forum because this poses an especially significant problem for Traditional astrology.

So more traditional forms of astrology are more focused on predicting concrete events using a birth chart. Ok.

How exactly would that work for twins? Twins born at the same time (or nearly the same time) with charts that are nearly identical. Planets are in the same houses, in the same degrees, in the same dignities, in the same aspects. Directions will trigger events at almost exactly the same time, transits will work at the same time, profections will be exactly the same.

I'm not talking about those cases where twins are about 10 minutes apart. I'm talking about when the difference is between 1-4 minutes...where the chart barely changes.

If astrology is able to predict concrete events, then the lives of twins should see identical (or at least) similar events happening at similar times throughout both of their lives. Experience has shown that this is not true. Twins often lead very different lives, have different personalities (though the temperaments in the chart are the same).

So can someone explain to me how the twin issue works? Because if astrology can predict concrete events then why are twins are able to lead entirely different lives despite having nearly identical charts?

I've seen this argument brought up over and over again, but all I've seen is people fail to actually address it.

This can apply to people who are not twins as well. The day you were born in your hospital, there are likely to have been at least one or two other babies born in that same hospital within 4 minutes of you. That means that there are people with an almost identical chart as yourself....but they're not you and their life experiences are likely not the same as yours.

What do you think?


Last edited by sworm09; 04-26-2014 at 06:19 PM.
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Unread 04-26-2014, 06:32 PM
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Re: Twins

Wow, it's really weird you are posting this question because I was thinking of posting the same question yesterday.

My twin sister and I are born 11/14/70. I was born 3:04pm and she was born 3:06pm (my mom had a c-section)

She was married at 23 years old, has 2 children and a happy life. I am 43 and still wondering if I will ever get married and see my chances of having a child slipping away.

(I posted my birthchart with birth time yesterday if anyone could tell me what they see I would be very thankful). I was previously told Venus is conjunct sun and this is a good time to start a relationship but I did not have the birth time.

Also I met a man last March that I really like and we have become great friends that I hope will move into more and was hoping my chart would say whether or not there is a chance of that.

Last edited by courtcam01; 04-26-2014 at 08:22 PM.
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Unread 04-27-2014, 03:08 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Twins

Making extensive use of the finer subdivisions (duodenaries, terms, monomoiria) and extensive use of dodekatemorion ramifications, will indicate differences, often of a significant nature (much as jyotish uses higher varga charts, such as the D60 and D120, and amsa's, for such purposes)-and this is without having recourse to the more speculative techniques such as pre-natal epoch (or the more esoteric field in Vedic of swara shastra)

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-27-2014 at 04:56 AM.
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Unread 04-27-2014, 04:45 AM
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Re: Twins

A very brief example of the application of one of the principles I mentioned, above, is from the birth charts of AW member Courtcam01 and her sister, seperated by a just 2 minutes of time:
-ascending degree for our AW member = 23Aries50
-for her sister = 24Aries41
Now-looking at ascending-degree ruler (monomoiria dispositor of the ascending degree), our AW member has Venus as ascending degree ruler and her sister has Mercury: note that, while both planets are in signs of their detriment in the birth charts, our AW member ascending degree ruler, Venus, is retrograde and, while conjunct Jupiter, this Venus/Jupiter conjunction is in opposition to Saturn (a planet characterized by its delaying qualities) On the other hand, her sister's ascending degree ruler, Mercury, suffers no such affliction (I shall not discuss its conjunction with Neptune here, since this is not allowed in the Traditional forum)
...so we see in this brief example of the application of just one of the special considerations for closely time/place connected charts I mentioned in my previous post, how subtle but significant potential differences can be brought out even when the birth time difference is a mere 2 minutes.
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Unread 04-27-2014, 08:32 PM
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Re: Twins

Thank you sworm09 for asking this question and thank you dr. farr for sharing your knowledge. It was very informative to say the least.
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Unread 04-28-2014, 03:26 AM
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Re: Twins

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
A very brief example of the application of one of the principles I mentioned, above, is from the birth charts of AW member Courtcam01 and her sister, seperated by a just 2 minutes of time:
-ascending degree for our AW member = 23Aries50
-for her sister = 24Aries41
Now-looking at ascending-degree ruler (monomoiria dispositor of the ascending degree), our AW member has Venus as ascending degree ruler and her sister has Mercury: note that, while both planets are in signs of their detriment in the birth charts, our AW member ascending degree ruler, Venus, is retrograde and, while conjunct Jupiter, this Venus/Jupiter conjunction is in opposition to Saturn (a planet characterized by its delaying qualities) On the other hand, her sister's ascending degree ruler, Mercury, suffers no such affliction (I shall not discuss its conjunction with Neptune here, since this is not allowed in the Traditional forum)
...so we see in this brief example of the application of just one of the special considerations for closely time/place connected charts I mentioned in my previous post, how subtle but significant potential differences can be brought out even when the birth time difference is a mere 2 minutes.
dr.farr, knocking it out of the park as always. This is exactly what I was looking for.

So from this example, I can assume that unless twins are born at the exact same time, their charts won't be the same. This would explain the differences, yet similarities in both of the twins charts. Most twins are born at about 4 minutes apart, which should give them different degrees on the Ascendant.
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Unread 04-28-2014, 03:30 AM
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Re: Twins

Right: even down to 1 minute, there will be subtle chart differences found by application of the various techniques I mentioned: UNDER 1 minute, then recourse to Vedic D120 analysis, or to swara considerations, would have to be done.
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Unread 04-28-2014, 11:47 PM
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Re: Twins

Here are the charts of twins born about a minute apart with the same ascending degree.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Birney,_Peter

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Birney,_Mollie
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Unread 04-29-2014, 12:30 AM
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Re: Twins

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Here are the charts of twins born about a minute apart with the same ascending degree.

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Birney,_Peter

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Birney,_Mollie
Ok, so I'd expect predictive techniques to show the same events at the same time in the same order.
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Unread 04-29-2014, 03:25 AM
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Re: Twins

However, such an assumption would be unwarranted: eg,
1) the ascendant Pauline dodek would be 26 minutes, different, in the twins charts referenced above, giving 2 +degrees Aries for one (monomoiria ruler = Venus) and 3 degrees Aries for the other (monomoiria ruler = Mercury)
2) in case of the SAME ascending degree in twins' birthcharts, one would look at the monomoiria ruler of the DODEK PLACE of the ascending degrees (rather than when there is a difference of 1 or more degrees of the ascending degrees, in which case the monomoiria ruler of the ascending degrees, rather than that of the DODEK, would be used, as I did in the example of Courtcam01, in an earlier posting)
3) same with the use of the MC, relative to its monomoiria degree ruler: in the reference charts the MC Pauline dodek would be different, in the 2 charts, so the MC monomoiria rulers of the MC would be different for each of the twins.

(while the above methods are from the Traditional Western stream, I will just mention here in passing that Vedic astrology would have no problem in differentiating charts even to less than 1 minute seperation in time, using D120 charts, and amsa sub-sub-sub time divisions)

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Unread 04-29-2014, 12:51 PM
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Re: Twins

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Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post
Ok, so I'd expect predictive techniques to show the same events at the same time in the same order.
Why? You are assuming the truth of two basic errors here: firstly, that the astrology we practice is infallible in allowing us to model reality. Secondly, that our own reactions to happenings do not somehow influence how a Mars profection will manifest. If we know our car is going to be crushed by a tree, we can remove all other valuables from it thus negating a lot of the harmful aspect of the Mars profection. I used to be a complete determinist, but it does appear that we can work a little with the hand we are dealt, most especially if we try to understand the forces that are assigned management of our lives and work with them instead of against them. You also have to consider that the Mercury and Sun combination rising together will not manifest in only one way. It will probably share certain characteristics but it need not be exactly the same to still be considered relevant. Lastly, they are of different genders, and like it or not, they will have a different experience of life due to that.
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Unread 04-29-2014, 02:47 PM
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Re: Twins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Why? You are assuming the truth of two basic errors here: firstly, that the astrology we practice is infallible in allowing us to model reality. Secondly, that our own reactions to happenings do not somehow influence how a Mars profection will manifest. If we know our car is going to be crushed by a tree, we can remove all other valuables from it thus negating a lot of the harmful aspect of the Mars profection. I used to be a complete determinist, but it does appear that we can work a little with the hand we are dealt, most especially if we try to understand the forces that are assigned management of our lives and work with them instead of against them. You also have to consider that the Mercury and Sun combination rising together will not manifest in only one way. It will probably share certain characteristics but it need not be exactly the same to still be considered relevant. Lastly, they are of different genders, and like it or not, they will have a different experience of life due to that.
Those are errors from your perspective. Basically you're spitting in the face of every deterministic astrologer. Traditional astrology (mostly the kind that is able to predict events), by its very nature is deterministic.

As soon as you say that things will manifest as trends, or as types, then all ability to predict events is gone. Only trends can be predicted.

So basically, you're saying that astrology can only predicts types of events, not actual events. That sounds a little more reasonable.
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Unread 04-29-2014, 03:05 PM
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Re: Twins

Quote:
Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post
Those are errors from your perspective. Basically you're spitting in the face of every deterministic astrologer. Traditional astrology (mostly the kind that is able to predict events), by its very nature is deterministic.

As soon as you say that things will manifest as trends, or as types, then all ability to predict events is gone. Only trends can be predicted.
Firstly, it would be best to leave emotive language out of the discussion. Spitting on people is not something I partake in generally.

You should also be aware that general labels such as "Traditional Astrology" are pretty much useless to try and define even a section of ancient astrology, never mind the tradition as a whole.

If you want to apply a broad label to ancient astrology, you really must consider astrological magic as part of it which actually aims to help alleviate problem areas in one's chart and is no less old or effective than the practice of horoscopic astrology itself. Also notable is the extensive Indian tradition of gemstones, mantras and other devotional methods of asking for help.


Quote:
So basically, you're saying that astrology can only predicts types of events, not actual events. That sounds a little more reasonable.
It is interesting that you let your train of thought spill out onto the page there, but yes, your conclusion is exactly what I am saying. I have no idea why this is. As I said, I used to believe in complete fate but experience of astrology and making real predictions led me to reevaluate that. I still believe that our lives are as they are, and there is little that can be done, but I don't believe horoscopic astrology is infallible in interpreting it. From our perception, we have some room to maneuver. From God's, we are as we are.
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Unread 04-29-2014, 05:19 PM
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Re: Twins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Firstly, it would be best to leave emotive language out of the discussion. Spitting on people is not something I partake in generally.

You should also be aware that general labels such as "Traditional Astrology" are pretty much useless to try and define even a section of ancient astrology, never mind the tradition as a whole.

If you want to apply a broad label to ancient astrology, you really must consider astrological magic as part of it which actually aims to help alleviate problem areas in one's chart and is no less old or effective than the practice of horoscopic astrology itself. Also notable is the extensive Indian tradition of gemstones, mantras and other devotional methods of asking for help.




It is interesting that you let your train of thought spill out onto the page there, but yes, your conclusion is exactly what I am saying. I have no idea why this is. As I said, I used to believe in complete fate but experience of astrology and making real predictions led me to reevaluate that. I still believe that our lives are as they are, and there is little that can be done, but I don't believe horoscopic astrology is infallible in interpreting it. From our perception, we have some room to maneuver. From God's, we are as we are.
Ok, saying that you were "spitting in the face of more deterministic astrologers" is a figure of speech. Not to be taken literally. A metaphor. No need to take it personally or get offended by it.

Also the final line isn't MY train of thought, it's OUR train of thought, as you agree with me. That train of thought wasn't even a secret that had to be "spilled"....that's EXACTLY what I'm trying to determine. The premise of this thread was basically that either 1) Events can be predicted from the nativity, thus twins that share nearly identical natal charts should experience the same events or 2) Specific events can't be predicted from the natal chart, but the tone of events and the life in general can.

I can admit that using the term Traditional astrology is general, but in this context it's rather irrelevant, I even specified that I was talking about tradition schools which focused on predicting events.

I'm not challenging you in my comments, just asking direct questions. I find that sometimes people focus too much on waxing on and on (and I'm not accusing you of this) rather than actually answering the question directly. Don't think I'm attacking you.

Last edited by sworm09; 04-29-2014 at 05:28 PM.
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Unread 04-29-2014, 05:49 PM
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Re: Twins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Lastly, they are of different genders, and like it or not, they will have a different experience of life due to that.
I would imagine that fraternal twins would also have different conception charts, as the eggs would have been fertilized independently of one another.
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Unread 04-29-2014, 11:08 PM
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Re: Twins

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post

I would imagine that fraternal twins
would also have different conception charts,
as the eggs would have been fertilized independently of one another
.
Exactly..... that is the crux of the matter....

Astrologers of days gone by,
were of necessity talented mathematicians

and easily constructed not only natal charts
but also conception charts

which were calculated using methods considered complex by today's computer-dependent world

Quote:
Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post
Ok, saying that you were "spitting in the face of more deterministic astrologers" is a figure of speech. Not to be taken literally.
A metaphor.
No need to take it personally or get offended by it.......

........Don't think I'm attacking you.
HOWEVER

an exceedingly graphic figure of speech was chosen

that provides a clear mental image

that is unpleasan
t


An alternative, non-accusatory metaphor
could have avoided

the not unexpected reaction of revulsion


Although the intention
may NOT have been to cause offense

NEVERTHELESS

QUOTE



'.....Spitting upon another person,

especially onto the face,


is a universal sign of anger,

hatred, disrespect or contempt.


It can represent a "symbolical regurgitation"


or

an act of intentional contamination
.......'
source: Wikipedia



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Unread 04-30-2014, 12:28 AM
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Re: Twins

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
However, such an assumption would be unwarranted: eg,
1) the ascendant Pauline dodek would be 26 minutes, different, in the twins charts referenced above, giving 2 +degrees Aries for one (monomoiria ruler = Venus) and 3 degrees Aries for the other (monomoiria ruler = Mercury)
2) in case of the SAME ascending degree in twins' birthcharts, one would look at the monomoiria ruler of the DODEK PLACE of the ascending degrees (rather than when there is a difference of 1 or more degrees of the ascending degrees, in which case the monomoiria ruler of the ascending degrees, rather than that of the DODEK, would be used, as I did in the example of Courtcam01, in an earlier posting)
3) same with the use of the MC, relative to its monomoiria degree ruler: in the reference charts the MC Pauline dodek would be different, in the 2 charts, so the MC monomoiria rulers of the MC would be different for each of the twins.

(while the above methods are from the Traditional Western stream, I will just mention here in passing that Vedic astrology would have no problem in differentiating charts even to less than 1 minute seperation in time, using D120 charts, and amsa sub-sub-sub time divisions)


Genius, as usual, dr. farr. Thank you! I haven't time to test it, but I believe you did explain it very well.
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Unread 04-30-2014, 12:55 AM
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Re: Twins

Quote:
Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post
I posted this in the Traditional forum because this poses an especially significant problem for Traditional astrology.

So more traditional forms of astrology are more focused on predicting concrete events using a birth chart. Ok.

How exactly would that work for twins?
Twins born at the same time
(or nearly the same time)
with charts that are nearly identical.

Planets are in the same houses....
.
By the way, for twins, planets are not necessarily in the same houses

IF

one of the twins is born as the ascendant sign changes

then

Whole Sign House system shows that the twins have their planets in different houses
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Unread 04-30-2014, 03:48 AM
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Re: Twins

I am not sure whether this will be accepted on a traditional astrology site, but the ancients did use duad charts so perhaps it will.

I have found that duad charts clearly describe the differences in twins and have written about it here: http://aliceportman.com/duads-duad-c...between-twins/

The work has been published in the FAA journal and presented at the Sydney Astrological Research Society with very good feedback.

Alice
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Unread 04-30-2014, 03:56 AM
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Re: Twins

Right! Duads (I refer to them as duodenaries) are among the differentiating techniques I mentioned in an earlier post to this thread. Remember too that in our earliest extant book on Western astrology ("Astronomica", c14 AD) Manilius mentions the importance of duads, and further divides each duad into 5 equal sub-sections (of 30 minutes each), allocating a planetary ruler (Jupiter, Saturn, Mercury, Venus, Mars) to each duodenary sub-section: thus Manilius used the duodenary subdivisions as "terms" (each sign then having a total of 60 such subdivisions, which is highly reminiscent of the D60 varga-ie divisional- chart used since ancient times in Vedic astrology, which among other applications, is one of the 2 types of charts-along with the D120 chart-anciently used in deifferentiating close-birth-time charts)

(PS Alice Portman's linked article will provide much insight into the application of the duodenary-duad-principle for close-birth-time charts)

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-30-2014 at 03:59 AM.
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Unread 04-30-2014, 07:03 AM
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Re: Twins

Tsmall and JupiterASC, I'm not entirely sure of the validity of conception charts since we have no way of determining their accuracy. I'd prefer to work with what we do know.

Dr. Farr, really how accurate can we consider the ancient's view of sub-divisions when some of the ancient's calculations of planetary positions and rising degrees were sometimes degrees off from modern computed values?

Sworm, I don't really see much to comment on in your post. I'm not offended, I would just prefer to keep thoughts of personality out of the discussion. It is a waste of time even mentioning it. If I don't respond in future, then you'll know why.
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Unread 04-30-2014, 07:17 AM
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Re: Twins

Well, I think it does matter. We all begin with a philosophical viewpoint in using our astrology, but eventually the predictive-accuracy of our techniques moulds our usage of them. I don't think the ancients were any less subject to this idea than we are as Valens' number of time-lord techniques suggests.

I see the value in dodekatemoira both practically and philosophicallly but further dividing that division seems a little too precise for people who couldn't accurately determine where the planets were on the Ecliptic in the first place.

Since you make extensive use of the monomoira, for instance, how much value do you place on them? If the ASC degree has a different monomoira lord, how much difference does that actually make to the delineation? Personally, I see the different dignities as not producing varying degrees of strength to a planet but producing different things for the planet, different contexts. How does monomoira fit in there?

Also, I am reminded of a story I heard Robert Hand talk about where he used dodekatemoira to determine which one of a set of triplets either died or had health complications soon after birth. I have never been able to find his reasoning. Has anyone else?
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Unread 04-30-2014, 07:29 AM
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Re: Twins

If the birth time is reliably accurate, I consider monomoiria of the ascending degree in context of the following hierarchy:
-dispositor of the ascendant sign 1st
-dispositor of the decan of the ascendant sign 2nd
-dispositor of the duodenary of the ascendant sign 3rd
-monomoiria of the ascending degree 4th
...as far as emphasis is concerned upon the over-all horoscope of the relevant planets involved; when the first 3 elements of the hierarchy are the same for twins, then the 4th element becomes an important differentiating variable allowing differing ramification trends to be estimated over time, for the life of 1 vs the life of the other (assuming a different ascending degree-or dodekatemorion of the ascending degree-if the ascending degree is exactly the same for both twin charts)
Also, as I have posted elsewhere, I long ago substituted monomoira for terms (bounds), following Paulus Alexandrianus in regarding monomoiria as essential dignities.

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-30-2014 at 08:08 AM.
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Unread 04-30-2014, 07:36 AM
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Re: Twins

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
(PS I do not think as little of the astrological capabilities of the ancients, as the previous poster seems to, but perhaps that is due to my high estimation of the esoteric knowledge and insights, of these oldtime practitioners-at least, of some of them!)
I see it is hard to have any sort of debate here without people foisting silly, and hardly thought-out, opinions onto you and your views. Thanks anyway, Dr. Farr.

Last edited by Konrad; 04-30-2014 at 07:51 AM. Reason: Adding quote to clarify context
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Unread 04-30-2014, 07:42 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
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Re: Twins

Remember that everything I have to say (on this thread or anywhere else on AW) represents my own understandings and opinions (and experiences) ONLY, and that I do not claim any degree of authority for any of my statements-nothing more, than merely how I see things, and certainly, with no intent whatsoever to convince any other person, of any thing!
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