Confused about Pluto

unique_astrology said:

[deleted quote of attacking comment - Moderator]

Pluto on the Desc. does not always indicate death any more nor less than all of what you had to dig for but in this case it was an appropriate aspect.

From Robert Hand's "Planets In Transit" on the significance of transiting Pluto:

"You can always see its effects very clearly - ranging from machines breaking down and needing repair to full scale destruction and death."

From a prior posting by me elsewhere:

Even with such exactness of planetary placements in relationship with the angles or other planets in a chart there is no exact prediction of what will come to pass. If anybody believes otherwise, I have a life span of almost 70 years, a timed birth chart, and have lived through the conjunctions, sextiles, squares, trines, and oppostions of all of the outer planets to all of my natal planets and angles and would enjoy their interpretations detailing the experiences of any 1 of those transits. A ballpark of positive or negative, easy or difficult, is all that may be forecast without intuition or a 'sixth sense' playing a role. How could it be otherwise when you have but 2 luminaries and 8 planets with which to describe the countless experiences which occur every moment in the world?

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AstroLogical said:

On a couple occasions, once in the 70's and again in the 80's, I provided some highly accurate chart readings (according to the Natives), only to find out later the basis for the chart calculations given to me were quite wrong.
So, what's that all about?
Something else is going on here on other levels of consciousness. This art/science of astrology is not only just a matter of matter—examining physical objects out there in space and insisting they fit into a scheme of study. It also has to do with our interconnectivity to each other and the universe we "observe."
....
So if Pluto "speaks to you," listen and analyze it's message.
Is it relevant or not to your overall observation?
If Pluto flips you off, ignore it and use whatever tools are comfortable for you.
The energy lost in debating this Traditional vs. Modernist issue could power a small community

Love you all... in some way or another.
A*L

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waybread said:

Are you familiar with this book: Geoffrey Cornelius, The Moment of Astrology? He gives examples of the "wrong chart" yielding a correct interpretation, and has a bunch to say about what makes a horoscope radical. (This doesn't mean leftist-- more like able to yield correct information.)

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Dirius said:

The answer to that according to traditional perspective, is that planetary transits are not what define the moments on your life.

First of all:

a) A planet in "transit" according to traditional views, wasn't the regular and constant movement of the planets through your chart.

It was something bound exclusevly to the solar return chart, which in turn is bound to the Profection technique, which determines the Chronocractor (lord of time) for a given period of time.

The concept of a planet transiting the chart, was only taking into consideration when analyzing the solar return chart. For example, if in a given year, on a solar return you had lets say Virgo rising, with mercury placed in the 1st house near the ascendant, that "transit" of mercury would be relevant (obviously the real technique is much more complex than this).

b) The profection technique determines the Chronocractor, which is in a way the reagent planet of the profected sign, for a specific period of time.

For example, when profecting your ascendant into Pisces, the lord of time becomes Jupiter for said given period of time, thus the state of Jupiter in your chart, the transits of jupiter during that year's solar return, and the general "benefic" nature of Jupiter are what modules the period of time in question.

Profections can be done so for years, months, even days.

I've actually tested this a bit, and been testing it since I first learned of them. It is to be honest, one of the most relevant and usefull techniques in astrology for your daily life.

--------------

Thus, in the traditional perspective, it is not daily planetary transits that affect your daily life, but chronocractors.

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I would only add that for a Pisces profected ascendant Venus is also of interest

As for transits, the chronocrator technique reveals exactly why so often transits pass without producing expected events

It is remarkable that any 'transit of pluto' is given so much credence in natal astrology and seems preferred to the seven visible planets
when in fact one orbit of pluto around the sun takes 248 years

waybread said:

So far we haven't talked about Pluto in mundane astrology, but I have to wonder whether the long-term Uranus-Pluto square is afoot with the rise of Islamic terrorist groups around the globe. (No, I'm not a religious bigot-- I don't think the Muslims whose lives have been devastated by these groups or peaceable Muslims around the world are in any way associated with the terrorists.)

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waybread said:

So far we haven't talked about Pluto in mundane astrology,


but I have to wonder whether the long-term Uranus-Pluto square is afoot with the rise of Islamic terrorist groups around the globe.

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Monk said:

It must be noted that i follow mundane astrology,
so can be rusty with birth charts,
but i love Robert Hand, and always follow his links to mundane astrology,
as an overall astrologer i find him the best, for fixed stars i follow Bernadette Brady!

With the Ingress Charts above, i find the Washington Chart fascinating regarding the Ukrainian Crises,
tap on chart on previous link thread section to make larger.

Robert Hand uses Pluto in mundane astrology,
and JupiterAsc will be interested in the parans regarding Washington DC , as Jupiter and Alnilam, Belt of Orion are rising at location at 12:53:06.

Obviously different ways to value mundane astrology,
but Robert Hand wouldn't have come by insight by not using Pluto!

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JUPITERASC said:

One orbit of the sun by pluto requires 248 years approximately

therefore

no human being can experience a pluto return in one lifetime

thus the dwarf planet has nothing to add to natal astrology
since the seven classical planets already provide answers

and even for MUNDANE ASTROLOGICAL DELINEATION the seven classical planets provide more than sufficient data

pluto is only one object of many similar objects in the Kuiper Belt
many more similar objects are being discovered daily
so if dwarf planet pluto is relevant then so are all the other dwarf planets
yet no one is creating a furore and demanding that all dwarf planets form part of natal chart delineation

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i.e.
seven classical planets provide sufficient insight

waybread said:

(No, I'm not a religious bigot
-- I don't think the Muslims whose lives have been devastated by these groups
or peaceable Muslims around the world
are in any way associated with the terrorists.)

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waybread said:

On mundane astrology, see: http://www.amazon.ca/Mundane-Astrology-The-Nations-States/dp/1933303115 . Unique_astrology is our resident expert.

I will get back on my mystery chart in a day or so if I don't hear from Konrad (or any other takers) by then.

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waybread said:

On mundane astrology, see: http://www.amazon.ca/Mundane-Astrology-The-Nations-States/dp/1933303115 . Unique_astrology is our resident expert.

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On MUNDANE ASTROLOGY


ASTROLOGY OF THE WORLD I & II

BobZemco said:

Astrology was created to know the Fate of Kings & Kingdoms,
and then evolved to the Fate of Nations & Men ---
Astrology is all about predicting...
it is a predictive model that uses predictive methods

Here you go.........


Grand Conjunction 1702
21 May 1702
4:01:37 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York
074°W00'37"
40°N42'26"

Great Mutation (Earth) 1802
17 Jul 1802
5:52:26 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York

Great Malefic 1976
12 May 1976
9:51:13 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York

Great Conjunction 2000
28 May 2000
11:07:39 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York

2001 Aries Ingress
20 Mar 2001
8:35:26 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York

....Insert Your Natal Chart Here.....

That is where your place is in the hierarchy of charts.

RSVP

Read, Study & Vigilantly Practice


Just some house-cleaning....this chart....

Great Malefic 2004
25 May 2004
1:20 AM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York

....is now the operating Malefic Chart until....

Great Malefic 2034
26 Jun 2034
5:33:42 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York

....and then this will become operative....

Great Mutation (Air) & Great Conjunction 2020
21 Dec 2020
1:24:22 PM
+4:56:02
Federal Hall, New York


Note:
Relocate the chart(s) to your country
and for maximum accuracy, use the "foundation point"

eg:

Romania = Alba Iulia, not Bucharesti;
Japan = Kyoto, not Tokyo;
Spain = Toledo, not Madrid
etc etc etc

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waybread said:

I will get back on my mystery chart in a day or so
if I don't hear from Konrad
(or any other takers) by then.

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Monk said:

I follow a direct line, usaully i'm not interested in birth charts, only mundane astrology,
i comment as i'm looking for reasons for my mundane comments regarding this,
obviously i am very interested in JupiterAsc comments,
please note my area of learning was before scientists de-valued Pluto, many comments seem to be the death! Very Pluto obsessed!

My own observations is perhaps Pluto may be at issue with this thread,
i tread a straight line with parans, when i issue a thread i don't go much beyond,
however i find it disturbing that that JupiterAsc will quote Robert Hand as nothing much,
but will quote him as influencial on another thread,
i don't do that with parans?

Forget about Pluto, i'm an astronomer
and will deal with pluto influence
but deny regarding my birth chart regarding fixed star influence, thanks to JupiterAsc,
obviously we will never agree, perhaps i look at Pluto Influence,
perhaps i don't, i look to answers!

But i don't look to promote Robert Hand by JupiterAsc,
by 18th Post approx. below, but then say he is rubbish by link here,
i follow direct symbolism by paran.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80290

I'm very interested in JupiterAsc thoughts, however i can see other reasons for my observations about parans regarding my birth chart not related to Pluto,
perhaps others need attack my observations regarding parans, Olympic Parans may help, i'm just trying to get to the truth!

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Hi Monk 'finding the truth' re: confusion about Robert Hand

on that thread you linked to I state at the 18th post

JUPITERASC said:

Kepler is now an online College
its chairman
is the well-respected and world-renowned astrologer Robert Hand

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Kaiousei no Senshi said:

A lot of talk about Kepler here, but no one has really stated outright that Kepler did not give degrees in astrology. What it was accredited to do was offer Associate of Arts, Bachelor of Arts and a Master of Arts in Eastern and Western Traditions: The History, Philosophy and Transmission of Astrology.

That is certainly nothing to scoff at, we could all use some additional lessons in the history, philosophy, and transmission of astrology. However, Kepler was never handing out degrees in horary or natal astrology or whatever. That would never have gotten accredited by a state board because astrology is popularly thought of as a pseudoscience.

I'm not completely sure what the ultimate issue was that removed Kepler's accreditation. Chris Brennan (who attended and graduated) mentioned a change in Washington State law and Lehman's (who taught) speech at that same graduation implies that it was because of the college's association with astrology.

That all being said, Kepler is much more free to actually teach astrological technique now that it does certifications. There's also ISAR's and NCGR's certifications for the modern psychological bent, and there is the School of Traditional Astrology run by Deb Houlding and Chris Brennan has his course in Hellenistic astrology. So there are definitely options.

But those don't necessarily make you a professional astrologer.

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waybread said:

Wow-- sorry about Konrad.

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unique_astrology said:

.....From Robert Hand's "Planets In Transit" on the significance of transiting Pluto:

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waybread said:

.....
Ok, Konrad, Dirius, and any other takers.

I from my files the chart of a man with Pluto conjunct MC. The birth time would be rated AA: from a hospital record, not rounded. This is someone of my acquaintance, university-educated, self-employed but ambitious to start his own firm.

What sorts of sports and films does he like, and why? How does he cope with adversity? Within his profession, what sort of work does he specialize in/or at least, has had the most experience in?

Please explain the methods through which you answered the questions.
I will judiciously supply additional information upon request.

Over to you, guys.

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waybread said:

OK, mystery chart revealed: posted on p. 7, from 1/31/15.

This man is self-employed/i.e., owner of a very small firm specializing in commercial design. I think the Virgo in him comes out in the finely detailed work that he produces. I get the artistic part from that Venus in Libra.

Much of his work has been with retail renovations and re-branding some established retail images, such as some big names in the fast-food industry with outlets in shopping malls: here is Pluto's energy of "old into new." He is currently working on a children's museum: old (museum) into new (children.)

Where Pluto also comes in is that he played football and rugby in high school, and rugby through his university years. The part that he liked was playing defense and getting into a tackle-pile of very large muddy guys-- the expression "out from under" comes to mind.

He is also an expert skier, but I read that more as Mars-Sagittarius rising.

I might mention that despite Virgo's supposed quest for purity, this man had several jobs as a part-time bouncer in bars in the university town where he lived for some years. The bouncers aren't there to drink-- as you know-- just to handle problem patrons, who can get pretty gross.

Similarly, with films, he likes the battle of the good underdog against the massed forces of evil, notably in the Tolkien and Hobbit series. If you've seen these movies, the bad guys are exemplars of the negative Plutonian archetype, on a colossal scale.

Coping with adversity has two sides, so far as I can tell. The Virgo who gets fussed if things aren't perfect; but also a real, "When the going gets tough, the tough get going" spirit that typifies the sports and film preferences.

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