Twins

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Alice McDermott

I am not sure whether this will be accepted on a traditional astrology site, but the ancients did use duad charts so perhaps it will.

I have found that duad charts clearly describe the differences in twins and have written about it here: http://aliceportman.com/duads-duad-c...between-twins/

The work has been published in the FAA journal and presented at the Sydney Astrological Research Society with very good feedback.

Alice

DUADS = DWADS = DWADACHAMSHA = DODEKATEMORIA

i.e.

ALL of the above = 1/12 DIVISION of a zodiacal sign

and are well-established as an ancient as well as Traditional astrological technique


QUOTE

'….The use of dodekatemoria in Babylonian texts
is relatively well attested....' source: Francesca Rochberg http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=v...rology&f=false



ANCIENT HELLENISTIC AND PERSIAN ASTROLOGY IN PRACTICE http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/?p=807 details a simple method of roughly calculating 'Twelfth Parts' without the use of astrological software

QUOTE

'....Of course, you can calculate twelfth-parts with pen and paper.
It’s simple enough and I discussed how it’s done in the first post on the twelfth-parts.
Here I want to highlight some quick and dirty techniques for approximately knowing just where the twelfth-part of any position is
even when software is not handy and without much thought or math.
Below are my tips. For these tips the numbers that I give are where the twelfth-part sign starts,
so always think in 2.5 degree segments, remember that 10 goes from 10°00′ to 12°30′ of that sign......'


There is also
FREE TRADITIONAL ASTROLOGY SOFTWARE MORINUS https://sites.google.com/site/tradmorinus/morinus
that calculates the 'Twelfth Parts'
displaying them on the chart wheel


Ancient Astrology software programs http://www.babylonianastrology.com/i...emart&Itemid=1 available from Rumen Kolev
These calculate the 'Twelfth Parts' and much more as well

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by Konrad

Tsmall and JupiterASC, I'm not entirely sure of the validity of conception charts since we have no way of determining their accuracy. I'd prefer to work with what we do know.

That's fine. I often question conception charts myself. It was just a thought that occured to me about how two people born at the same time in the same place with the same ascending degree could have different things happen to them. This in addition to your call-out that they are of different genders. My question for you then would be how you, personally, would be able to predict for each of the natives?

Originally Posted by Konrad

Dr. Farr, really how accurate can we consider the ancient's view of sub-divisions when some of the ancient's calculations of planetary positions and rising degrees were sometimes degrees off from modern computed values?

Perhaps they were sometimes off from modern computed values, but that doesn't mean the knowledge didn't exist to do it correctly. I imagine if we had to do all our charts and computations by hand we'd possibly end up with a few math errors ourselves. Lilly was apparently quite successful with rough calculations in some charts (just like today we "roughly" know as astrologers where the planets are at any give time, even if we don't sit down and actually calculate the exact degree and minute.) Proof that what they did have worked well when done correctly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle

Just because a few practitioners occasionally made errors isn't conclusive proof that nobody knew anything and so sub-divisions can't be trusted.

Originally Posted by Konrad

I see it is hard to have any sort of debate here without people foisting silly, and hardly thought-out, opinions onto you and your views. Thanks anyway, Dr. Farr.

So much for preferring to keep thoughts of personality out of the discussion. It appears it isn't debate you are after, but agreement with your own ideas or theories. I realize that you visit our forum infrequently, so you may not be aware that dr. farr's theories are far from "hardly thought-out." I don't always agree with all of them, but that is beause I listen to all of them and then go look for myself. He (dr. farr) has been studying astrology longer than I've been alive, or thereabouts. Want to know what's really amazing? He proposes ideas and then encourages people to go learn for themselves. And dr. farr is notorius for actually considering what other people bring to the table. He's not a "my way or the highway" kind of guy. A little respect goes a long way.

[Konrad]

Originally Posted by tsmall

That's fine. I often question conception charts myself. It was just a thought that occured to me about how two people born at the same time in the same place with the same ascending degree could have different things happen to them. This in addition to your call-out that they are of different genders. My question for you then would be how you, personally, would be able to predict for each of the natives?

The same way I do now: I would talk with them about what I see and give some indication as to what I see in the context of their lives.

Perhaps they were sometimes off from modern computed values, but that doesn't mean the knowledge didn't exist to do it correctly. I imagine if we had to do all our charts and computations by hand we'd possibly end up with a few math errors ourselves. Lilly was apparently quite successful with rough calculations in some charts (just like today we "roughly" know as astrologers where the planets are at any give time, even if we don't sit down and actually calculate the exact degree and minute.) Proof that what they did have worked well when done correctly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle

Just because a few practitioners occasionally made errors isn't conclusive proof that nobody knew anything and so sub-divisions can't be trusted.

I never said that they knew nothing. It wasn't errors in calculation by the astrologers, but the fact their tables were not accurate to the degree in the case of a lot of the planets, especially the Moon. This makes sub-dividing a degree pretty useless. Hell the later Persian and Arab astrologers were mixing Sidereal and Tropical tables and using Aries ingresses with a Sidereal measurement.

So much for preferring to keep thoughts of personality out of the discussion. It appears it isn't debate you are after, but agreement with your own ideas or theories. I realize that you visit our forum infrequently, so you may not be aware that dr. farr's theories are far from "hardly thought-out." I don't always agree with all of them, but that is beause I listen to all of them and then go look for myself. He (dr. farr) has been studying astrology longer than I've been alive, or thereabouts. Want to know what's really amazing? He proposes ideas and then encourages people to go learn for themselves. And dr. farr is notorius for actually considering what other people bring to the table. He's not a "my way or the highway" kind of guy. A little respect goes a long way.

If you actually read the quote I used, Dr. Farr claimed that " I [he] do not think as little of the astrological capabilities of the ancients, as the previous poster seems to [me]". If you took the time to read that, it contextualised exactly what I was referring to. I did take the time to edit my post, as you can surely see. Also, it appears someone has removed one of Dr. Farr's posts in the middle of our conversation which also means we lose the context of one of mine. So yeah, you're a bit off on that one. I also visit your forum a lot more than you think. If I can bend one of my own rules, let me make a similar statement as Dr. Farr: I don't care if you believe me or not, I am not lookng for followers and I don't use astrology to look good in front of agroup of people. But let's forget your misunderstanding, Tsmall, and move back to the astrology.

[sworm09]

Originally Posted by Konrad

The same way I do now: I would talk with them about what I see and give some indication as to what I see in the context of their lives.





I never said that they knew nothing. It wasn't errors in calculation by the astrologers, but the fact their tables were not accurate to the degree in the case of a lot of the planets, especially the Moon. This makes sub-dividing a degree pretty useless. Hell the later Persian and Arab astrologers were mixing Sidereal and Tropical tables and using Aries ingresses with a Sidereal measurement.






If you actually read the quote I used, Dr. Farr claimed that " I [he] do not think as little of the astrological capabilities of the ancients, as the previous poster seems to [me]". If you took the time to read that, it contextualised exactly what I was referring to. I did take the time to edit my post, as you can surely see. Also, it appears someone has removed one of Dr. Farr's posts in the middle of our conversation which also means we lose the context of one of mine. So yeah, you're a bit off on that one. I also visit your forum a lot more than you think. If I can bend one of my own rules, let me make a similar statement as Dr. Farr: I don't care if you believe me or not, I am not lookng for followers and I don't use astrology to look good in front of agroup of people. But let's forget your misunderstanding, Tsmall, and move back to the astrology.

Arggh, feisty, feisty

I've noticed that since you appeared on this thread, you've simply thrown philosophical answers to the question and snippy, condescending comments while dr.farr actually gave a practical one. I must agree with tsmall; for some reason you seem to want to make people think your way. Throwing around snippy responses certainty isn't the way to do it

Originally Posted by Konrad

Sworm, I don't really see much to comment on in your post. I'm not offended, I would just prefer to keep thoughts of personality out of the discussion. It is a waste of time even mentioning it.

I have no idea what you're talking about on "thoughts of personality" I commented on something that you admitted was your opinion. I guess I just didn't do it the way you wanted me to. But that's not the part that concerns me....this is:

Originally Posted by Konrad

If I don't respond in future, then you'll know why.

This scares me to death. I don't know how I'll survive if you, and only you, specifically, don't respond to one of my threads. That's literally the worst thing that could happen to me.

Originally Posted by dr. farr

If the birth time is reliably accurate, I consider monomoiria of the ascending degree in context of the following hierarchy:
-dispositor of the ascendant sign 1st
-dispositor of the decan of the ascendant sign 2nd
-dispositor of the duodenary of the ascendant sign 3rd
-monomoiria of the ascending degree 4th
...as far as emphasis is concerned upon the over-all horoscope of the relevant planets involved; when the first 3 elements of the hierarchy are the same for twins, then the 4th element becomes an important differentiating variable allowing differing ramification trends to be estimated over time, for the life of 1 vs the life of the other (assuming a different ascending degree-or dodekatemorion of the ascending degree-if the ascending degree is exactly the same for both twin charts)
Also, as I have posted elsewhere, I long ago substituted monomoira for terms (bounds), following Paulus Alexandrianus in regarding monomoiria as essential dignities.

Thank you dr.farr!

To be honest, like Konrad, I was a tad skeptical about duads....but playing around with them on my own chart and the charts of others, I can say pretty confidently that they do work, and they work well. I've toyed around with the duads for both planets AND signs, particularly with the Ascending sign (Example, the ill tempered Pisces rising turns out to have a Scorpio duad on the Asc) and it's always of some help. Monomoira are something that I'm going to have to experiment with some more.

I also forgot that the various "degrees" exist. There's a big difference between having a bright degree on the Ascendant than a pitted degree on the Ascendant. Those change in minutes.

[dr. farr]

Originally Posted by sworm09

I also forgot that the various "degrees" exist. There's a big difference between having a bright degree on the Ascendant than a pitted degree on the Ascendant. Those change in minutes.

Excellent point!
I have used these degree-qualities, as well, in many delineations of all types of charts.

Remember too the ancient affinities of degrees to "electro+" and "electro -" (admittedly Modern terms for what were called "masculine degrees and feminine degrees); these degree qualities (dark, bright, void; elevated, pitted; "masculine", "feminine") go back to Hellenist authors, and their relative importance in delineation was re-affirmed (such as in Abu Mashar's works) during the Islamic transitional era, passing thus into Medieval and Renaissance Western astrology. These considerations can add nuances in helping differentiate close-twin-birth time charts.

[LyP]

There are cases where twins even having had a separate life each other had the same life events and even has the same tastes and mannerisms
here is cited the story of jim lewis and jim springers and this case is no exception
is something to think about.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/twin1.htm

[dr. farr]

That is an important point-because many times twins DO have similar lives and life events, even when raised apart and by different families-thats to LyP for reminding us of this fact!

[sworm09]

Originally Posted by LyP

There are cases where twins even having had a separate life each other had the same life events and even has the same tastes and mannerisms
here is cited the story of jim lewis and jim springers and this case is no exception
is something to think about.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/twin1.htm

Good point!

Anecdotal evidence isn't really evidence, but my two uncles are twins. Both of them married a foreigner, both married around the same time, both had two children, both worked as mechanics, and both suffer from illnesses related to the Sun; one has back problems the other has heart problems.

They were born about 2 minutes apart.

[oriel]

Interesting..I was born with a twin too but she died on the third day,we're 24 minutes apart.. My life is quite a struggle,sometimes I wonder what's her life would be like if she had lived.

[FindMeInTheStars]

I find this thread very interresting as I am an identical twin born 1 minute after my sister. I have added both our charts.

[Konrad]

Originally Posted by FindMeInTheStars

I find this thread very interresting as I am an identical twin born 1 minute after my sister. I have added both our charts.

Thanks for that, Julie. Can you share any biogrphical information, or at least some differences you have found in your lives?

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

That is an important point-because many times twins DO have similar lives and life events,

even when raised apart and by different families
-thats to LyP for reminding us of this fact!

Conversely, twins sometimes have very different lives

here's the story of:

A FAMOUS TWIN

born just thirty-five minutes after his stillborn brother

On 8 January 1935, Gladys Love Presley gave birth to a set of twins.
The first of the two was born at 4:00 AM and was stillborn.
He was given the name Jesse Garon Presley and was buried in a cardboard box in an unmarked grave
- the family was too poor to afford a coffin.
The second twin arrived at 4:35 AM and was named Elvis Aron Presley http://www.neatorama.com/2013/05/08/...hipped/#!Xk4H7


Gladys suffered hemorrhaging after giving birth to Elvis and his twin
and spent more than three weeks at the hospital convalescing afterward.
Gladys was so ill from the birth that she was never able to have more children


The MYSTERY OF JESSE GARON PRESLEY http://www.elvispresleybiography.net...ler-blog/?p=60


By the way, a woman has come forward claiming to be illegitimate child of Vernon Presley
making her Elvis' half-sister.
Many claim relationship to Elvis
but few have provided as much evidence as Eliza Presley.

Eliza had her DNA compared to that of one of Elvis' paternal cousins.
Lab results indicated kinship.
She further had her DNA compared to that of a man claiming to be Elvis himself.
Those results showed that she was that man's half-sister.
A Cleveland news station did further testing which verified the original results.
Although this is not definitive proof
it is compelling enough to warrant further exploration. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc5DdC4zaUU

[FindMeInTheStars]

Originally Posted by Konrad

Thanks for that, Julie. Can you share any biogrphical information, or at least some differences you have found in your lives?

I would say our lives have been very similar. Same school. Same friends. Loved same subjects, books, tv shows, left school same time. Started working at 16. Both of us worked for same business together for 4-5 years then we went seperate ways. We bought our parents house together 13 years ago. We have our own houses too.
She went into a clerical job at a delivery company I went to work for a big telecoms company answering calls. We both have been promoted to managerial positions and earn about same wages.
We both have partners with red hair of water signs. Hers is scorpio mine is cancer. Been with our partners almost same time. 10 months difference. Both had issues with our relationships last year. We both have dogs. Both have same health issues more or less.
We live 40 miles apart. No children for either of us.
Hard to thunk of differences. She dyes her hair blonde im brunette. She weighs a little more than me. Always has. She was always the tomboy in jeans i liked dresses. She thinks more before speaking and reacting than I do. She is more level headed. Better with money. Makes friends easier than I do. She is mire suited to managerial roles than I am. Even though people look to me sometimes for leadership I do not enjoy it. She does. She works days I work nights. I get coldsores 98% more than she does. She suffers from tonsilitis but I have never had it. I am more of an emotional support for others than she is. She is less of a procrastinator than i am. I would say she is more selfish than I am although I like to help people too much sometimes. I make snap decisions and change my mind a lot more than she does.
So no major differences. No life changing differences. I will be trying for a baby soon though but she doesnt want kids. We even have the same rare palmistry crease, a Suwon crease, hers on the left mine on the right :-D

[Konrad]

Again, thanks for that.

I am quite the ardent user of the dodekatemoira outlined earlier in this thread, and I have been wondering about how far we can use them to see differences in situations such as yours. I noticed when you gave the charts that, using the a Sidereal measurement, your ASC projects to around the 14th degree of Scorpio meaning it is still in configuration to Venus while your sister's is a bit further back, and depending on exactly when she was born, the Sun is closer, but still either way, testifying to it. The differences you describe would fall into that Sun/Venus distinction, especially the blonde hair, the greater selfishness and the desire for leadership your sister exhibits. Though with Saturn culminating and dominating the actual ASC degree, I would think Saturnian attributes and form would be more obvious. Correct me if I'm wrong, you're basically saying that you are very similar in the context of the ASC (looks, attitudes, approach to life etc.), but with some subtle differences within that overarching similarity? If so, that does suggest that the dodekatemoira do not have the power to influence the manifestations of the chart so much, but instead add a different tone or shade to the colours already present.

[FindMeInTheStars]

yes, exactly right. It's kind of similar to the nature v nurture debate. There are studies that personality is more to do with your genetics than your environment. Maybe the genes you are born with are a recipe from the stars = astrology. So when they talk about genes basically it's astrology lol

Other factors probably come into the astrological twin debate. Maybe it depends what sign you are. I think my chart says that I do not like change which is why me and my sister are so similar

My sister was born 23:58 I was 23:59. By C section. If I was a minute late it would have been a different birthday!

[Alice McDermott]

Here are your duad charts Julie. With duad charts of twins we mainly use close to exact aspects.

As you can see, there are several differences:

* Lisa has Jupiter conjunct MC in Aries with ruler Mars in Aries as well and you have the MC in Taurus in a separating, out of sign conjunction with Jupiter, with ruler Venus in Leo.

She is more suited to managerial roles than I am. Even though people look to me sometimes for leadership I do not enjoy it. She does.

This difference could also describe Lisa as being the "tomboy in jeans" and you liking dresses.

* Lisa has Pluto in closer conjunction with antiVertex in 8th house; you have Mars in exact conjunction with antiVertex in 8th house. Perhaps this fits with your statement

She thinks more before speaking and reacting than I do. She is more level headed. Better with money.

* You have the Moon conjunct IC

I am more of an emotional support for others than she is.

Your Cancer partner may be shown by the Moon in exact trine to the Descendant.

*

She went into a clerical job at a delivery company I went to work for a big telecoms company answering calls.

This fits Mercury rising in both duad charts as well as the Virgo MC you both have in your natal charts with its ruler, Mercury in Aries.

Perhaps you wanting children and Lisa not wanting them can be shown by your Moon on the IC and Lisa with the Black Moon on the Ascendant. I have found the Black Moon often shows up in the charts of powerful women, many whom choose not to have children.

Perhaps Lisa's tonsilitis is shown by Venus conjunct 12th cusp and your cold sores by Chiron square Ascendant?

We even have the same rare palmistry crease, a Suwon crease, hers on the left mine on the right

Were close relatives married in your family line? e.g. cousins or people with a more distant relationship but whom looked similar? I have found this crease often occurs with this genetic background.

Alice

[tikana]

recently there are twins that were born 28 days apart or something. I'd like to wrap my head around that one

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by tikana

recently there are twins that were born 28 days apart or something. I'd like to wrap my head around that one

In vitro fertilisation and subsequent freezing and storage of fertilized eggs
means that twins may well be born several years apart
or even a DECADE AND MORE apart
as has already happened several occasions

for example

TWINS BORN SIXTEEN YEARS APART http://www.planer.com/company/news/o...ars-apart.html

TWINS BORN FIVE YEARS APART http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...ars-apart.html


Five-year-old Reuben Blake and seven-week-old twin Floren
were conceived from the same batch of embryos
but born five years apart Photo: Ben Birchall/PA





THERE ARE EVEN TRIPLETS BORN THREE YEARS APART http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ozen-2013.html

[serafin5]

So I've been studying pretty hard the last month or so all of the things that give "Traditional Astrology it's name; the dignities/debilities, duads/dwads, profections, firdaria, etc., and recently in my little town a adolescent girl passed away who was born conjoined! Her sister is alive and doing well. I assume an event chart would be in order for the day of their separation surgery but how would something like the Natal chart of conjoined twins be interpreted? (I do not have their info yet but I am working on it.)

Such an interesting thread! Thanks!

Serafin 5

[Arena]

I've been very interested in the similarities as well as differences of twins for a long time. My husband is a twin (identical) and they are born only 12 min apart - I guess they had mostly similar lives before he met me, but after that everything changed for him, but not for his brother. We fell in love, moved abroad for a year, had our first child 2 yrs after we met, and then our next one the year after, we renovated our apartment. My husband finished his bachelors and then masters degree and got a good job and so much has been happening in our lives for the last few years. At the same time nothing at all happened in his brother's life and he's been very lazy.

I find it interesting as well as puzzling.

I've read some very interesting insights of Ḿagi astrology society where they say that when two people's charts "meet" they kind of morph into a new chart that can really alter people's lives (my husband and I or other people). It does sound very interesting and a plausible explanation.

[oriel]

Originally Posted by Arena

I've been very interested in the similarities as well as differences of twins for a long time. My husband is a twin (identical) and they are born only 12 min apart - I guess they had mostly similar lives before he met me, but after that everything changed for him, but not for his brother. We fell in love, moved abroad for a year, had our first child 2 yrs after we met, and then our next one the year after, we renovated our apartment. My husband finished his bachelors and then masters degree and got a good job and so much has been happening in our lives for the last few years. At the same time nothing at all happened in his brother's life and he's been very lazy.

I find it interesting as well as puzzling.

I've read some very interesting insights of Ḿagi astrology society where they say that when two people's charts "meet" they kind of morph into a new chart that can really alter people's lives (my husband and I or other people). It does sound very interesting and a plausible explanation.

This is so interesting.

[Arena]

Yes it is interesting indeed - and me being the life partner of one of them and looking at these very different lives - or the life of one changing a lot after meeting me - and me being interested in astrology, I do think that the Magi society must have a very good point there.

They do actually have many many examples they go through to show how people's lives change a lot after meeting or marrying their partner for life (for some time) - and they give you those examples for free in an e-book on the web and also on their website. They call those Cindarella transits or cindarella meetings as well as other good things astrologically, such as trines and conjunctions which they judge most powerful.

[serafin5]

Originally Posted by Arena

Yes it is interesting indeed - and me being the life partner of one of them and looking at these very different lives - or the life of one changing a lot after meeting me - and me being interested in astrology, I do think that the Magi society must have a very good point there.

They do actually have many many examples they go through to show how people's lives change a lot after meeting or marrying their partner for life (for some time) - and they give you those examples for free in an e-book on the web and also on their website. They call those Cindarella transits or cindarella meetings as well as other good things astrologically, such as trines and conjunctions which they judge most powerful.

Did you say an "e-book for free"? May I ask where could one find this? Also, would this be downloadable?

I agree with you, such a great topic; doubly for you since you've seen first hand this kind of thing.

Blessings to you!
Serafin 5

[Arena]

The Magi society does offer subscription to their web and their program where you pay for it, but they offer their book online yes, they leave out the three last chapters I think. Just google it ... I am not sure if it is ok for me to post the link here?

[JUPITERASC]

THE SECRET LIFE OF TWINS
a documentary series
featured:
Identical Twins separated at birth and raised by different parents in different homes
- THE JIM TWINS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw3S35wGgT8