So that's just one of the conditions for the Sun to be in Hayz and my understanding is that in order to qualify for this particular Hayz condition then Sun MUST be in Aries Gemini Leo Libra Sagittarius or Aquarius.
Think about the word "Sect" and its connotations.
A Sect is like a Faction, which is a group of people acting together within a larger group, like a clan, a clique, a cabal, a bloc (like the East Bloc -- a faction, a sect, sub-set of Europe), a band of people, a crew, etc etc etc.
Astrology is based on ordered hierarchies, like charts, and then groups of Planets like the Nocturnal Planets and the Diurnal Planets, the Masculine Planes and the Feminine Planes, the Cold Planets and the Hot Planets, and so on.
So you have two factions: the Diurnal Planets ---the Day Crew, the Day Shift, the Day Bloc, the Day Clan, the Day Shift, and then you have the Nocturnal Planets -- the Night Crew, Night Shift, Night Cabal, Night Bloc, Night Clan and such.
Note that each Faction has a Light: Sun for Day; Moon for Night, and because of that, they have different conditions to meet.
The Planets in each Faction/Sect operate best when they are similarly situated, meaning the Day Planets are Above Earth with the Sun, in Masculine Signs/Houses and too the Night Planets when they are Below Earth in a Day Chart, but Above Earth in a Night Chart and in Feminine Signs/Houses.
Diurnal Planets like to be in Diurnal Signs, which are the same thing as Masculine Signs. Nocturnal Planets like to be in Nocturnal Signs, which is the same thing as Feminine Signs.
If you understand futboll, then a Planet in-Sect is like being in the "B" League. A Planet in Hayz is like being in the "A" League. And if the Planet is in Hayz, and also in a Masculine Quadrant/Degree, it's like the Planet is also on the National Team, competing in the World Cup.
A Planet (or Light) that is not in-Sect is not very competent and being Out-of-Sect makes it totally incompetent.
I noticed that interestingly, the particular condition you highlighted includes two of the Unfortunate Houses, 9th and 12th and of those two 12th is the worst so I'm focusing on that
Hellenistic astrology states that ANY planet located in 12th is hampered because it is 'unfit/unable to carry out its business'.
Since you gave an example using the Sun, I chose a dignified Sun in 12th – in this case Aries, but Leo Sun would do just as well. Aries and Leo are both strong Signs for the Sun and I'm mulling over whether you are saying that a Dignified Aries - or Leo – Sun would be considered to be in Hayz yet located in 12th where it is unable/unfit to act according to Hellenistic astrologers. That's all. I'm mulling over the fact that you are saying that specifically Sun in 12th in ANY masculine sign is in Hayz
I think you might be confusing the concepts.
Sect tells you if a Planet (or Light)
has the potential to perform the task(s) given to it in the Native's Chart.
The potential to act, is not the same as acting/performing.
Whether a Planet is Fortunate/Unfortunate will tell you if the Planet will actually perform.
As an analogy, think of you being in Hayz, you're very competent at what you do, be it a web-designer, engineer, chef, hair-dresser.....
....but because you are Unfortunate, you can't find a job, or there are long delays in finding a job (and then perhaps not in your career-field).
Think of the Planet representing Children in a Native's Chart. The Planet is in-Sect or in-Hayz and so competent, and therefore has
the potential to produce Children for the Native, but because the Planet is Unfortunate, there are many delays, difficulties, problems in having Children, possibly to the extent that the Native might not ever have Children.
And you could say the same for Wealth, Health, Career, Travel and any other Topics.
I disagree with the Hellenistic concept, but that might be because I don't believe it is stated very clearly.
You have this Exalted in Hayz Sun in the 12th, and it's hampered to the extent that
Sun cannot share his gifts with any other Planets, due to the fact that he is in the 12th House.
An Aries Sun in Hayz applying to the trine of Mars, Jupiter or Saturn in Leo would be a beautiful thing, but not from the 12th House....that just isn't going to happen. That trine will be so weak as to be barely noticeable in its effects.
According to Schmidt on Valens I understand that
(a) planets located in ANY Cadent house direct their energies away from the native and towards others instead.
Uh, okay, but that is
exactly what you'd want an Exalted in-Hayz Sun in the 12th House to do --- direct its energy at others ---- like your Secret Enemies to keep them at bay and keep them from harming you.
That's no different than Aries Mars Rejoicing in the 6th protecting me from serious injuries.
Let me ask you this: someone with a dignified Planet in-Sect or in Hayz in the 9th, do you think the Native is likely to be involved in Scientology? Or part of a religious or ideological cult (like a terrorist group)?
Not likely.
(b) planets located in ANY Cadent house produce few, if any events and/or are unlikely and/or less likely to produce many/if any events.
I'm just not seeing that at all.
I've done way too many Forensic Charts.
Not only that, but in my own Chart, Venus is in Cancer in the 9th House and very obviously ruling the Libra 12th House...
....can you say "
expatriate?"
Sure, I knew you could.
I've spent a good chunk of my adult life living outside of the US -- sometimes involuntarily due to military service; the rest of the time voluntarily -- like a self-imposed exile.
(c) Cadent houses are the 3rd, 5th, 9th and 12th
Therefore any planets located in the 12th (or any other Cadent house) in Hellenistic astrology direct their energies away from the native. When considering the malefics, this is regarded - in a sense - as good for the native.
However, I assume because it seems logical – and this is my understanding in any event - that if the native then somehow causes harm to others in any way, then obviously the native suffers the consequences of their actions. Thus receiving consequences of the action of malefics in 12th or any other Cadent house.
Benefics in 12th (or any other Cadent House) ALSO direct their energies away from the native so this is regarded - in a sense - as not so good for the native.
However, also logically then, my understanding of the issue is that the native may 'do good work for the benefit of others' and thus may receive some 'indirect' reward.
I'm guessing that's a typo and should read "6th" instead of "5th."
I have to categorically reject that.
One of the meanings often over-looked is Masculine/Feminine.
It has a secondary meaning of Active (Masculine) and Passive (Feminine). When you're judging a chart, there are 4 possibilities of Gender with Quadrants, Houses, Signs and Degrees.
A Planet sitting in 3 out of 4 (or all 4) Passive markers is going to be the recipient of action. I see that all the time in homicide charts, where the victim is often Cadent and in square/opposition to a Malefic or the significator of the perpetrator.
On the contrary, when a Planet is sitting in 3 of 4 (or all 4) Active markers (again Quadrant, House, Sign and Degree) that Planet will be the initiator of action, or the Planet that exerts the most action.
And when its middling --- any 2 out of 4 --- then the Planet is both the initiator of action, as well as the recipient of action.
According to Schmidt on Valens
1.) In a diurnal chart you'd want the diurnal planets in the upper hemisphere with the Sun (hayz) as that would be more natural for those planets. The diurnal planets are Sun, Jupiter and Saturn.
That's an excellent example of why we read and compare texts to find how doctrines become corrupted.
The Arabs refer to that as "
Halb." That's easy for me to remember, because the German word "
halb" is "
half." Not to get side-tracked, but I seriously doubt that's a coincidence. For one language or the other, it is a loan-word and it was picked up through trade.
So....a Planet in its "half" is in that
half of the chart -- North/South Hemisphere -- where it ought to be with its Sect ---- faction, group, crew etc etc etc.
For the Arabs, a Planet that was in
Halb --- in Sect --- was also Hayyiz (in Hayz) when it was in a Sign of its same Gender.
Then the Persians and later Medievals (like Bonatti) added the House conditions, and I accept that for now, but ultimately I'll most likely reject it, because I don't believe Houses confer any power...or take away power.
I believe that to be a concept that was mangled with the re-introduction of House Systems.
In other words, the 12th
House has no powers at all, but the 12th
Sign does, and due to the fact that the 12th Sign
is the 12th Sign, and that it is falling away from the Angle (Cadent) and it is in aversion to the Ascending Sign is what reduces the strength of the 12th Sign, in exactly the same way that the 9th, 3rd and 6th Signs are also falling away from the angles, except that the 9th Sign trines the Ascending Sign and so has some power...the most power of all the Cadent Signs, followed by the 3rd Sign which sextiles the Ascendant giving the Sign -- but not the House -- some power, and then the 6th and 12th Signs which are in aversion and very weak with the 12th Sign being the weakest.
I see the function of House Systems as showing the extent Signs influence a given Topic. That is obvious when you see the 8th House "bleeding over" into the 9th House and encompassing in part the 8th and 9th Signs, which is an indicator of death in a foreign land, or at the hands of a foreigner etc.
If any diurnal planets in a diurnal chart are in the lower hemisphere/below the Ascendant/Descendant axis then although they are in sect, nevertheless they are considered slightly out of sect and more nocturnal in nature (halb)
That makes no sense.
If that's true, then I should be rich beyond the wildest dreams of avarice, because Jupiter rules my Sagittarius 2nd House/Sign.
What's Jupiter's major malfunction?
Direct Jupiter is in Pisces.
Jupiter is harmed by Saturn? Not possible since Aquarius Saturn is in aversion to Jupiter.
Jupiter is harmed by Mars? Again, impossible since Aries Mars is in aversion to Jupiter.
Jupiter is harmed by the trine from Cancer Venus? Yeah, right. No, Venus aids Jupiter.
Jupiter is harmed by the square from Sun? No, Jupiter receives Sun by Triplicity and Face.
Jupiter is harmed by Pisces Moon joining him? No.
Jupiter is in aversion to the 2nd Sign and/or the Ascendant? No, Jupiter trines the Ascendant and squares the 2nd Sign.
The what's the problem, why aren't I sitting on mountains of cash?
Because Jupiter is not in-Sect.
It's a Day Chart and is Jupiter sunning himself at Lloret de Mar on the Costa Brava? No, he's frigging freezing Below Earth.
Not only is Jupiter not in-Sect, but Jupiter is in a Feminine Sign and a Feminine Degree.....the only saving grace here is Jupiter is in a Masculine Quadrant.
Is Jupiter competent to manage my financial affairs?
No way.
Jupiter is barely competent...I'll always have money in my pocket and a corrugated tin roof over my head,
but nothing more.
HOWEVER
logically mulling over Hellenistic considerations....
Although Jupiter and Saturn can be below the horizon in a day chart and therefore considered more nocturnal in nature (halb) I'm assuming that logically THAT DOES NOT APPLY TO THE SUN BECAUSE THE SUN CANNOT BE BELOW THE HORIZON IN A DAY CHART.... although of course there remain all the whether it's twilight and when is the Sun above or below the horizon exactly conundrums....
I can't really buy into that, because that isn't seen in charts.
As far as the twilight thing, if you can't see Sun on the Horizon, it's a Night Chart.
SO you are saying that Sun in 8th CANNOT be in Hayz irrespective of Sign location - so even a dignified Sun such as Aries or Leo when located in 8th can never be in Hayz.
That would be the long and short of it.
Regarding the in-Sect conditions for the Sun you have said that:
3] If Sun is in the 8th House, then IN ORDER TO BE IN SECT THEN Sun MUST be in a Masculine Sign.
You have said that being in sect is a condition of the Sun being able to perform the task it has been given in the chart.
So, just as a Sun, no matter how dignified may be somewhat limited in performing the task it has been given in the chart because it is located in a Cadent house such as 12th 3rd or 9th YET nevertheless, the Sun is in Hayz when in 12th in a masculine sign
BUT you are saying that IF Sun in 8th is in a Feminine Sign THEN Sun is considered 'out of sect' while nevertheless above the Horizon and in a Day chart. So a Dignified Aries or Leo Sun in 8th above the Horizon in a Day chart is in Sect BUT NOT in Hayz
I get that there are many considerations such as sign and house locations to take into account.
There are several components that determine a Planet's overall condition.
If you want, you can start by determining if a Planet is Fortunate or Unfortunate, because that in part will help you determine if the Planet is inclined to Good, or to Evil.
I don't really care for those terms any more than I care for Benefic/Malefic, but taken in the proper context, it does accurately convey what is taking place.
Benefic = Easy Street
Malefic = Hard Road
A Fortunate Benefic and you'll get to the end of the Rainbow in a chauffeured limousine.
A Fortunate Malefic and you'll still get to the end of the Rainbow, but you'll have to walk....up-hill both ways....in the snow...while raining...and being chased by lions and tigers and bears.
An Unfortunate Benefic and bad things come easy: excess, over-indulgence, hedonism and such.
An Unfortunate Malefic and you get bad things^2 (squared). Your home just doesn't burn down....it burns down, falls over, sinks into a swamp, gets eaten by rats (or I guess swamp rats) and then swallowed by a sink-hole and then a meteor lands and destroys the rest of it, and then you go to jail for not paying property taxes.
And then having made those determinations, you look at the Planet's ability to perform --- its competence --- it's Sect status.
I have a Benefic -- Jupiter --- that is very Fortunate, but then totally incompetent because Jupiter is not in-Sect and not in a Masculine Sign.
Jupiter in my chart is like the Black Adder or Mr. Bean.
Aries Sun in the 12th in that chart is in-Sect in a Masculine Quadrant = Competent --- and then in a Masculine Sign = Very Competent (and if also a Masculine Degree then Highly Competent), to perform the task it has been given, which appears to be protecting the Native from Secret Enemies.
The Sun is Fortunate, and very Competent, but badly placed in the chart, and the only thing that does -- being in the 12th --- is bar Sun from sharing his strength and gifts with other Planets, so just as Sun cannot aid or help any Planet through an aspect, Sun cannot harm any Planet either.
Hope that clears things up.