House System Insanity!!! Please help.....

By Jove, Venus transits are kinda "lite", in my experience. Because transiting Uranus represents sudden change, see whether you can pinpoint changes pertaining to different houses according to Uranus transits.

Also, some astrologers see house cusps as zones of transition, not as hard-and-fast barriers.

I agree with Starlink that it is helpful to look at house rulers. If your cusps change signs with different house systems, your rulers will most likely change, also. Then see where these rulers are, according to their own houses and aspects. They will often "decide" the matter of the house over which they rule, in a way consistent with their own locations.

Thanks to everyone above for helping. So 8th house natural ruler being Pluto and 9th Jupiter? Well, in Placidus, Pluto is in the 5th house of romance, so when I read 8th Venus I can relate already, and find it difficult to be sure. I have Venus trine Pluto, so one system or the other, they're connected! Also, I relate to a Jupiter-disposited Venus. I've dated many foreign people, I love foreign people and travel, learning etc. But then I've an active Mercury, exactly conjunct MC exactly trine AC, mercury sextile mars, so I love learning and travel and languages anyway. If nothing else can help me figure it out, I guess time will tell!!

byjove said:

...I have Venus trine Pluto....and...an active Mercury, exactly conjunct MC exactly trine AC, mercury sextile mars....

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Maybe that's the key, Byjove. Analyse the chart without reference to houses that change........then see which house system best fits your analysis.......(The chart might be governed by the astrological rule that anything of significance will be shown in more than one way.)

EJ

So 8th house natural ruler being Pluto and 9th Jupiter?

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No, you must look at the cusp ruler in your chart, not the natural ruler in this case. So if the 8th house cusp falls in Gemini, then see where your Mercury is placed. That Mercury shows you where your Venus can express herself at best. If your 9th house then falls in Cancer, look where your Moon is positioned.

EJ53 said:

And, when you married, didn't progressed Venus form an "Easy Opposition" to the Placidus 6/12th natal cusps?

(Virgo/Pisces intercepted in 1/7 : 10/4 signs duplicated : Cap/Can on 12/6 cusps : 12/6 cusps form Easy Opposition with progressed Venus for marriage)

I'd say Placidus works very well for you, Gesso.

EJ

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Dear EJ, I have a question. What you wrote above means that whan you have your progressed Venus forming an opposition to the natal cusp of 6th means that is the date of an marriage? Is this a general rule? I did it for dates of my marriage (first in City Hall and after 3 years in church with the same man) and in both cases I had my progressed Venus in opposition to the 6th house natal cusp. Today, in my progressed chart, I have Venus in exact opposition with DC and my Natal Moon in 7th at 1th degree. Did not understand about intercepted and the corelation. My 6th and my 12th are intercepted (in Leo and in Aquarius). Also,, in both cases, progressed Sun was in exact conj. with my natal Venus. Is this also corelated?

What you wrote above means that whan you have your progressed Venus forming an opposition to the natal cusp of 6th means that is the date of an marriage?

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I dont think this is what EJ means Natasa and it certainly is not a rule I have heard about. A progressed Sun in conjunction with Venus, yes, that is one of the indicators (it varies, you can have a marriage without this aspect as well of course).

I

did it for dates of my marriage (first in City Hall and after 3 years in church with the same man) and in both cases I had my progressed Venus in opposition to the 6th house natal cusp.

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A progressed Venus only progresses 1° per year Natasa, so that opposition can last for a few years of course, depending on how wide of an orb you take your opposition. So I dont think this observation means much. All those 3 years that progressed Venus was opposing your 6th house cusp but you only married in the 3rd year and you will hopefully also not marry in the coming couple of years (when that opposition is still valid I mean).-

Natasa said:

What you wrote above means that whan you have your progressed Venus forming an opposition to the natal cusp of 6th means that is the date of an marriage?

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No Natasa......as Starlink says, this is not what I meant.

I was pointing out that, at the time of Gesso's marriage, Venus had progressed to form a trine and sextile with the Placidus 6th/12th house cusps. And, whilst after the event we can see that it did indicate marriage, we could not have predicted that reliably beforehand because it might have been indicating any one of a number of things. And, again as Starlink says, this progression lasts for much longer than one day.........so, at best it enables us only to predict that Gesso might have got married on a day within the period of the progression.

EJ

I see. Thank you both very much.
Natasa

Hi all. The BURNING question which I've forgotten a thousand times to ask here is, has anyone here looked back over time and become sure of a particular house system? Looking ahead with this to me seems ridiculous, but looking back...maybe that will help us?

This problem annoys me considerably. To me it's clearly an inconsistency in astrology, and I do not feel comfortable talking about houses in chart interpretations with this hanging over us all. And worse still, I tried to understand where the different house systems recently. I was confronted with deep abstracts of the cosmos. I've a long way to go before understanding any of it, hence, I can't make a reasonable judgment myself, yet. The case for Placidus in particular gives me grief - there's always something about it being easy to access in the past and therefore we all use it today. That's not conclusive, there's no investigation, no reason, just...acceptance. And there are different reputable astrologers assessing the same celebrity, with different house systems claiming very different things, given different planet house positions. Oh no. We need to work on this! Any skeptic who gets close enough to the study of the stars and discovers this will see a blatant discrepancy, a rift.

Yes differences of opinion belong in every study, but we surely can't claim to be 'sure' of house positions in a chart, since there has been a blazing dispute about house division for how long now? Is there anyone on here with a good understanding of the different house systems who would care to teach a little? I'd be, and I'm sure others, very grateful. I find it confusing at the moment so I can't argue for or against any house system.

byjove,

I'm sorry but it's only with your own studies and research, using transits progressions to house cusps may this sheds some light... you just have to see 'which glove fits' and go with that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_house_system#Equal_House

The earliest systems (whole sign and equal house) linked the houses to the signs of the zodiac. The equal house system defines houses as 30-degree sectors of the ecliptic, so that the cusp of each house falls on the same degree of each zodiac sign. One outcome of this is that a varying angle occurs between the ascendant and midheaven in higher latitudes. Attempts to reconcile the concept of "quadrants" with the varying angle between midheaven and ascendant lead to more complicated house systems. These became more relevant as astrology spread from subtropical regions to higher latitudes.
Goals for a house system include ease of computation; agreement with the "quadrant" concept (ascendant on the first house cusp, nadir on the fourth, descendant on the seventh, and midheaven on the tenth); defined and meaningful behaviour in the polar regions; acceptable handling of heavenly bodies of high latitude (a distinct problem from high-latitude locations on the Earth's surface); and symbolic value. It is impossible for any system to satisfy all the criteria completely, so each one represents a different compromise. The extremely popular Placidus and Koch systems, in particular, can generate undefined results in the polar circles. Research and debate on the merits of different house systems is ongoing.

Equal House

In the equal house system the ecliptic is also divided into twelve divisions of 30 degrees, although the houses are measured out in 30 degree increments starting from the degree of the ascendant. It begins with the ascendant, which acts as the 'cusp' or starting point of the 1st house, then the second house begins exactly 30 degrees later in zodiacal order, then the third house begins exactly 30 degrees later in zodiacal order from the 2nd house, and so on.

The MC in Whole Sign & Equal House Systems

In the whole sign and equal house systems the Medium Coeli (Midheaven), the highest point in the chart, does not act as the cusp or starting point of the 10th house. Instead the MC moves around the top half of the chart, and can land anywhere in the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, depending on the latitude. The MC retains its commonly agreed significations, but it doesn't act as the starting point of the 10th house, therefore in Equal house it adds extra definition and meaning to MC and the cusps involved, but always MC is same in interpretations as other house systems.


You can read up on all the other house systems via the link

Thank you Astrologer50, for adding some more info on the different systems, and I really think we can learn something from this kind of constructive debate. I'm familiar with that link, and for anyone interested in learning a little about the most popular houses, that's a good place to start. Is there anything more advanced? I'm afraid I can't remember where I found this last week, but I found a site where an astrologer attempted to get a grip on exactly what the specific house systems are doing, where and why. She showed pictures of the cosmos, and different systems looked at different areas of the sky. This to me sounds like a crunch point; somewhere where we can use the basic tools of house division to make up our minds, rather than just run with recommendations on house systems.

To the previous poster, I wouldn't worry about your ASC for the moment. I drove myself mad investigatng mine, and now house systems add more indecision. As someone with an exact time though, I think the planets in the signs and the aspects make up most of me at least. I look forward to selecting a house system I'm sure of, but for the moment I'm doing without it.

This debate is good though, learning can happen here.

The great thing is with Astrology that you can easily swap and investigate different house systems, cos the 'house meanings' are unilateral. All it means is that certain planets move from one house to another and therefore alters the 'flavour and meanings' of that house...

If you are looking at rectification, try solar arcs, just moving the angles onto planets or vice versa. Transiting Mars and Mercury are very noticeable when crossing the Ascendant

Well has anyone over time felt that one system is definitely more consistent, more accurate? The Whole Sign approach seems so simple, and the fact that the ancients used it suggest the possibility that we've been making this much more compliated than needs be, though I'm aware of the northern and southern lattitude problem. Does Whole Sign fix that?

Hi Pierce, you wrote:

I'm not some insensitive clod [I do have an Aquarian Moon] but I am Taurus with a Scorpio asc...Kind of a tough love individual.

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I also have Taurus Sun and Scorpio Asc. Only my Moon is in Scorpio. I am very interested in the Sabian Symbol chart axis, actually, in everything to do with Sabian Symbols.
Comparing most popular housecusp divisions with the use of Sabian Symbol degrees seems one good way of doing it.

It is obvious from this thread you could either have a 7th or 8th house Saturn.

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Saturn in the houses shows where you have certain fears and limitations. Now which house does that for you?`the 7th or the 8th? Do you have some fears or anxieties concerning relationships or more concerning life and death issues and letting things go?, how to deal with crisis in your life or sexual issues?

Equal aside, how come Whole Signs don't get more attention. Most astrologers agree that there seems to have been a mistranslation which resulted in a lot of this mess. I noticed one or two planetary house placements I don't like with this house system, but isn't that already suspicious?! We can't pick and choose! At least, not in my opinion, I don't think we can just choose the house system which reveals the destiny most appealing to us.

Actually, Equal puts my sun and jupiter conjunct NN in my 9th, which sounds more modest than the 10ths meaning'. I've always been exceptionally ambitious, but I can't imagine the potential that Equal suggests for me.

byjove said:

Equal aside, how come Whole Signs don't get more attention. Most astrologers agree that there seems to have been a mistranslation which resulted in a lot of this mess. I noticed one or two planetary house placements I don't like with this house system, but isn't that already suspicious?! We can't pick and choose! At least, not in my opinion, I don't think we can just choose the house system which reveals the destiny most appealing to us.

Actually, Equal puts my sun and jupiter conjunct NN in my 9th, which sounds more modest than the 10ths meaning'. I've always been exceptionally ambitious, but I can't imagine the potential that Equal suggests for me.

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Well unfortunately it's only with analysis and research and looking at the meanings of different planets in different houses will you 'see yourself more clearly' and identify with your chart. One should make sense to you and whichever house system does, stick with it

Byjove, you said

I don't think we can just choose the house system which reveals the destiny most appealing to us.

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No, of course you cannot do this. As I see it, a chart, no matter which house system you use, is our tool to unleash our intuition. Now, if this somehow goes better when using Koch instead of Placidus or Equal instead of Regiomontanus, then use those which work best for you.

I believe that two astrologers, using different house divisions, will come to the exact same conclusion about the same person, if they are good astrologers.

If you start looking at "this mess" too technically, then your intuition will suffer. You cannot "do" astrology very well if you become too technical about it. You can see this clearly with beginning students of astrology who cannot do other than start in a more technical way, learning about orbs (another "messy" field, a.o.) and the more rigid cook-book instructions.

As soon as they gain confidence, and they allow themselves to start interpreting a bit more freely, sensing more than looking at everything rigidly, they get their intuitive juices flowing and get better and better at interpreting.

Whole house: causes the most radical change in the 12th/1st and 6th/7th houses. In other words, anyone who has AC at 29 deg of any sign is going to see a HUGE change.

Equal house preserves the 1st and 7th cusps but radically changes the 10th and 4th cusps.

All the house systems that keep AC, MC, IC and DC obviously keep the same cusps for the angular houses. However, as the AC is closer and close to 0 Cancer or 0 Capricorn, the "tilt" of the MC is more and mover severe, and the higher the latitude, the more ridiculous it gets.

That's my problem. It doesn't matter if you use Regiomantanus, Koch or Placidus. ALL of them make one or more of the big houses much bigger than the others (within a quadrant), and each system does it differently.

And things are already quite riduculous for 0 Cancer or Capricorn AC at 51n Latitude. That's southern England.

I think the problem of what house system to use is close to if not the biggest problem in astrology.

gaer said:

Whole house: causes the most radical change in the 12th/1st and 6th/7th houses. In other words, anyone who has AC at 29 deg of any sign is going to see a HUGE change.

Equal house preserves the 1st and 7th cusps but radically changes the 10th and 4th cusps.

All the house systems that keep AC, MC, IC and DC obviously keep the same cusps for the angular houses. However, as the AC is closer and close to 0 Cancer or 0 Capricorn, the "tilt" of the MC is more and mover severe, and the higher the latitude, the more ridiculous it gets.

That's my problem. It doesn't matter if you use Regiomantanus, Koch or Placidus. ALL of them make one or more of the big houses much bigger than the others (within a quadrant), and each system does it differently.

And things are already quite riduculous for 0 Cancer or Capricorn AC at 51n Latitude. That's southern England.

I think the problem of what house system to use is close to if not the biggest problem in astrology.

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I live Manchester, UK and use Equal house, if I try placidus it give huge 1st-7th houses and moves my planets 2whole houses from 4th to 2nd which I really cannot accept being a total home bird, self employed and working from home. It is a huge problem 'house system' so what system do you use at moment Gaer?

There are pro's and con's for every house system, with Equal you get additional information gained with 4th & 10th house cusps and planets in these houses although MC/IC are the most important as with any other system. Placidus uses intercepted signs/houses which Equal doesn't. Don't know too much about the others cos these are the 2 biggies.....

Again you have to 'see which glove fits' and which planet is more acceptable in which house system to you.....