Astrological sign archetypes as Enneagram and Jung Personality Types

—placeholder for something I’m gonna do later for fun just so I don’t forget——

Maybe this will ignite discussion, but I have been refreshing my mind on the enneagram and I most identity with the issues that plague a sexual 5. If I am a 5, I can't be a self-pres 5 because that pattern would be way too withdrawn for the kind of personality I have. 5 sx/sp would be my type based on my own self-assessment, probably 6 wing which would manifest counterphobic since sx leads in the instinctual variant.

Are you aware of my chart, Lykan? Would you want to take a look to see why I would identify with this type? I think having the combo of Sun-Mercury-Pluto in the 12th house + Venus conjunct Mars on the ascendant makes for the kind of energetic interplay that could rise to such a type.

To illustrate the contradictory nature of this typing. I am currently going through a controversy IRL (surprise surprise) and the response I have taken is outward and aggressive, instead of retreating into my mind like the description of a typical 5 would have it. The sx instinct is counterflow to both 5 & 6 (eccentuates 4 but you know that intimately). Also don't forget 5's connection to 8 which I think I am in touch with. (I am much more physically adroit and active than the standard descriptions of 5 indicate)

conspiracy theorist said:

To illustrate the contradictory nature of this typing. I am currently going through a controversy IRL (surprise surprise) and the response I have taken is outward and aggressive, instead of retreating into my mind like the description of a typical 5 would have it. The sx instinct is counterflow to both 5 & 6 (eccentuates 4 but you know that intimately). Also don't forget 5's connection to 8 which I think I am in touch with. (I am much more physically adroit and active than the standard descriptions of 5 indicate)

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How do you think sx is counterflow to 6? In my mind, sx seems to accentuate any reactive type, 6 included. Also, I can see the 5w6, I'd say if you're sx first, definitely sx so and sp last. I remember you saying the first time we talked about enneagram that you tested as a 7. If you're sp last, that might explain it. It may make the line that also runs to 7 a little stronger. You actually remind me a lot of 5w6s I used to know on an old enneagram forum. I can see the 6 wing come out sometimes, but that primary 5

For the sake of the thread, would you like to post your chart again and note in more depth where you think the 5w6 and perhaps even the instinct is made obvious?

I'm a 4w5 sx sp myself with a very strong connection to my 5 wing and I think the odd mix between fiery emotion and cerebrality is on the most basic level possibly explained by my being a Cancer with my sun/moon in my 1st house, my 12th house Chiron, Uranus being a high influencer(unpredictability?) along with Neptune, mixed with a strong and influencial but damaged Mercury, Pluto 3rd house, and being a heavy retrograde individual

I hadn't tended to this thread just bc I was focused on my personal life for a while, but I'd love to get a good discussion going so thank you for coming in lmfao

on a sidenote, what do you think about tritype theory? A lot of people follow it and it could possibly add extra layers and explanations as to why you're not as withdrawn as the standard 5w6


Tho I have a complaint: I find that 4 and 5, especially 4w5 and 5w4, get mythologized and idealized even by an enneagram community I used to be a part of that was extremely private and serious about the study and theorizing. Many times the withdrawnness is focused on to the point of making these types into fictional characters like geniuses that are so rare and so special that you're absolutely anything but 4 or 5 until proven otherwise by a battery of intense tests. The withdrawnness becomes emphasized because it falls into this beautiful painting of an introverted, misunderstood genius that is so sensitive it can barely function at all in the real world and may as well only be a fictional character
--in reality we have many actors and musicians of these types who aren't even particular geniuses of their crafts. The fixations of these types may drive individuals to pursue various arts and sciences and engagements with theories of all kinds, but it doesn't guarantee they'll be particularly noteworthy in these fields as much as some communities and descriptions may love to emphasize these aspects

I probably harped on too much about that, but it's probably very obvious by now I have a major issue with anything that becomes idealized to the point of unreality. That may seem ironic given that my type is prone to selfidealization while immature, but really, I believe that's part of why I'm so aware of this trend in any theory collective

How do you think sx is counterflow to 6? In my mind, sx seems to accentuate any reactive type, 6 included. Also, I can see the 5w6, I'd say if you're sx first, definitely sx so and sp last. I remember you saying the first time we talked about enneagram that you tested as a 7. If you're sp last, that might explain it. It may make the line that also runs to 7 a little stronger. You actually remind me a lot of 5w6s I used to know on an old enneagram forum. I can see the 6 wing come out sometimes, but that primary 5

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I'd say because the way the other 6 types try to resolve their basic fear is through appeasement and alignment with something to which would alleviate their feelings of uncertainty and anxiety about being without support or guidance - the social 6 might be more willing to align themselves with a group identity or idol to which they base their way of life on/around, and the self-preservation 6 may do so through amassing the requisite trappings of what it means to live a life of security - home, family, stable job/career etc. sexual 6 resolve their anxiety & uncertainty through actively challenging themselves and conquering their fears. They are the dare-devils, the vocal advocates for those treated unjustly, the kamikaze pilots etc. They are much more forward and "8-like" which is why a lot of 6s would see themselves in 8 descriptions (another idealized type no doubt due to its relationship with power and "alpha-ness"). I guess I can see why you'd say that sx accentuates 6 and I agree since it turns the reactivity into bull-dog territory. However I was coming at it through how the instincts interact with the basic fear or problem of the type.

It's easy to see how a sexual 5 is counterflow because 5s seek ultimate self-sufficiency and self-containment while the sexual instinct is all about chemistry, "infection" and assimilating & becoming one with the object of desire - whether that be a person, an idea or a "supra-person" (like a deity for example). Sufism is an example of a sexual's approach to spirituality.

With regard to my personal stuff, I actually use to score between 5 and 8 back in HS and even to this day that is still the case (although the last time I took the test I scored highest in sexual 1 - go figure) . Yes, I don't really feel overwhelmed by being out their in the world, not at all, and I have always been able to hold my own in any environment that I have been in, despite not being a boisterous or a particularly loud person. And I have been in diverse environments. I'd have to chew on that suggestion about being sx/so because I have that classic dichotomy going between wanting to wander and be free vs. not being influenced by anything or anyone with my special space that is only relevant to me & me alone. I am proud of myself for not ever succumbing to peer pressure and assimilating to group identity but then I can see how anti-social pole of the social instinct and the 5 pattern can contribute to this. Gonna chew on that for a little while. I will say that I am currently where I am because I took a suitcase and took my chances in a new environment that I had no prior knowledge of. If I am a 5, that kind of gamble would most fit an sp last pattern. It's also a wickedly Sagittarius thing to do and I am wickedly Sagittarian.

Anyway, this is getting hella long so I'm going to respond to other questions in subsequent posts. I'll keep the astrology fast and tight.

A link to my chart - https://i.imgur.com/PPrGaKd.png

I think the issues around the minimalism, knowledge-seeking, cerebrality as well as the desire to "hoard oneself" comes from the fact that my chart is a bundle, the most tenanted houses are 12th & 2nd (my secrets and my ****), High mutability and Jupiter as final dispositor and very influential makes me want to seek "wisdom". Pluto as cutting planet and in conjunction to the Sun makes it influential to my overall life pattern and self-actualisation - Pluto is invisible, investigate and cthonic (5 and 4 opens into the abyss of the enneagram pattern). Then, an Aquarius Moon contributes to intellectualizing ones feelings.

Regarding the intensity-seeking of the sexual-first, I have 5 planets in fire that manifests through a fiery ascendant with a fiery Mars closest to the ascendant. This Mars is influenced by Venus which makes it a more amorous pattern (the desire to merge is integral to the desire to penetrate which can manifest beyond the obvious, obviously). Pluto is also **super-intense-bad-boy-juice** and I have it prominent in my chart. No retros might be why my energy doesn't have too much difficulty flowing outward, despite always identifying with introversion more than extroversion. 6 wing over 4 because I think the prominence of the elements fire & earth over water & air keys me to more pragmatic domains of knowledge (knowledge that can be used practically). Mars prominence again in concert with the knowledge planet Jupiter may want for knowledge that can be put into practice.

I wasn't expecting to write so much when I began

on a sidenote, what do you think about tritype theory? A lot of people follow it and it could possibly add extra layers and explanations as to why you're not as withdrawn as the standard 5w6

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I am open to a lot of ideas in the enneagram since it is a very new thing (it's around 60 years old vs. astrology's millennia) and I keep abreast of the different developments going on in the sphere. Though I think that lines of integration/disintegration, the instinctual stacking and the interplay between it and the core fixation has a lot of explanatory power, in and of itself. The debates kind of remind me of the traditional vs. modern in astrology circles.

I've tested consistently over the years as 5-8-3 so yes, those two types would contribute to a more outward personality and appreciation for the external world and the potential that can be found in carving your vision out of its material. It's also referred to as the system builder, so there is a strange blend between how this tri-type is supposed to operate and the 6 wing propensity for systematic thought systems already established, or "externalised".

Tho I have a complaint: I find that 4 and 5, especially 4w5 and 5w4, get mythologized and idealized even by an enneagram community I used to be a part of that was extremely private and serious about the study and theorizing. Many times the withdrawnness is focused on to the point of making these types into fictional characters like geniuses that are so rare and so special that you're absolutely anything but 4 or 5 until proven otherwise by a battery of intense tests. The withdrawnness becomes emphasized because it falls into this beautiful painting of an introverted, misunderstood genius that is so sensitive it can barely function at all in the real world and may as well only be a fictional character
--in reality we have many actors and musicians of these types who aren't even particular geniuses of their crafts. The fixations of these types may drive individuals to pursue various arts and sciences and engagements with theories of all kinds, but it doesn't guarantee they'll be particularly noteworthy in these fields as much as some communities and descriptions may love to emphasize these aspects

I probably harped on too much about that, but it's probably very obvious by now I have a major issue with anything that becomes idealized to the point of unreality. That may seem ironic given that my type is prone to selfidealization while immature, but really, I believe that's part of why I'm so aware of this trend in any theory collective

Click to expand...

I tend to think of it like this - if the enneagram is an objective personality system that purports to say objective things about people, then no matter where a human being is in the world, there is a possibility that they can be anyone of the types which includes 4s & 5s. Someone in a tribal community could very well have the core fixation of one of these abyssal types and you would probably be looking at the shaman or witch doctor as a straightforward example. That is, unless you want to say that certain populations are predisposed to different types with regard to frequency. If you want to make a case for that, then one would need to differentiate between the traits derived from the core, and the core fixation. Which I think is where most get tripped up since they are smart and like to read so therefore they are a 5, or they are dominant and physically imposing so they are an 8. I think that level of engagement is just a waste of time, playing dress-up with these different typology systems. There is a lot of things to unravel with the regard to what genius is, what 4 & 5 fixations are, and the connection between them.

Although, there was an individual who thought that enneagram types were more or less common depending on the time period that one was born in.

But on a meta-level, I don't find it surprising that 4 and 5 are given to idealization since both types are very much taken by the "beautiful idea". Aesthetics of thought and form, there disconnection to the attachment triad (3-6-9) which makes for more focus on how to thrive in the wider world, and the fact that they open up to the bottom probably makes them more prone to being disconnected from reality and to be "consumed by the deep".

I also think that what makes 5w6 more comfortable with pragmatic ideas is because of its connection to 6 and the attachment triad. This type of 5 is much more of a builder than the 5w4 variant which I see as truly iconoclastic since their energetic draw is pulled from the abyss - they tear down the established and subvert old forms of thought, always trying to stay true to the idealization/inward conception to which they adhere to (4 as a part of the idealization triad alongside 1 and 7, looking at the world through how it "should be")

I think 5w4 is much more aesthetically minded and is taken by the pleasing form of ideas. Lots of feedback loop going on there with their idealization, which may be significant if these truly are archetypes and we tap into them when we engage and think about them.

I guess if one was truly compelled to get to the bottom of the enneagram, you would have to meditate on the symbol of the system itself and learn the significance of its form. Arguing on the top of it with regard to the fixation and outward traits may always miss the interconnected link beneath it all, since the symbol of the system itself seems to be forgotten.

https://www.amazon.com/Enneagram-G-Gurdjieff-Mathematics-Metaphysics/dp/1930337949

I don't own the book and I am not personally interested but this is what I mean by going to the "root" and meditations which stem from this root.