Moog
Well-known member
I believe you get three a day.
Delivering 'bad' news
- Thread starter Moog
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I believe you get three a day.
Moog
Well-known member
I don't really see a gulf of difference between predicting someone will have a tendency to being melancholic, or not expressing their emotions spontaneously, or something like that, and predicting that a person will have few or no children or lots. They are both just manifestations of... whatever it is.
The impact is likely to be very different, probably because a person has usually had a long time receiving feedback from others about basic personality traits like that, and a prognosis of barrenness is usually a shock.
For what it's worth, I've never actually predicted barrenness (I don't think so, anyway), or infertility to anyone else, only in the confines of my own head. It seems like something you should think about how to do, and also something you should be able to reliably predict from tons of experience with case studies.
If I was a doctor, I'd be about a year or two into med school here.
The impact is likely to be very different, probably because a person has usually had a long time receiving feedback from others about basic personality traits like that, and a prognosis of barrenness is usually a shock.
For what it's worth, I've never actually predicted barrenness (I don't think so, anyway), or infertility to anyone else, only in the confines of my own head. It seems like something you should think about how to do, and also something you should be able to reliably predict from tons of experience with case studies.
If I was a doctor, I'd be about a year or two into med school here.
Caro
Well-known member
it is in the subtlety of how you put it. to say someone is melancholic(a medieval medicine term) is quite different to saying you have clinical depression. if you say someone may have difficult with fertility this is not the same as saying they are infertile.
dont underestimate the impact of infertility - some women commit suicide as they see this as their life purpose. in India where vedic traditions are from, a women is still predominantly seen as someone who will have and raise children. She is valued for that by society. (although this is changing)
doctors are often dreadful at giving this type of news and as far as Im aware dont recieve training in this .
miquar
Well-known member
Another point is that doctors know with some certainty whether or not a couple can conceive, after the relevant tests have been done. But the astrologer doesn't.
Astrology can can suggest that a person might be prone to depression at some point in their lives, and can even show at which times this is more likely to occur than other times. We don't even have to use the word depression when communicating about this with the client, but we can still talk about how periods of withdrawal or disillusionment or lethargy can be part of a valuable process in the longer term.
But fertility is qualitatively different. There are no euphemisms and no shades - any suggestion of infertility will freak someone out. You only have to see how many people come onto the forum desperate to have their fears of infertility taken away by an astrologer to see how a vulnerable person can give immense weight to what an astrologer tells them.
To my knowledge, no one has ever found a way to reliably predict infertility from the birth chart. IMO, this is the most important point in this discussion.
Astrology can can suggest that a person might be prone to depression at some point in their lives, and can even show at which times this is more likely to occur than other times. We don't even have to use the word depression when communicating about this with the client, but we can still talk about how periods of withdrawal or disillusionment or lethargy can be part of a valuable process in the longer term.
But fertility is qualitatively different. There are no euphemisms and no shades - any suggestion of infertility will freak someone out. You only have to see how many people come onto the forum desperate to have their fears of infertility taken away by an astrologer to see how a vulnerable person can give immense weight to what an astrologer tells them.
To my knowledge, no one has ever found a way to reliably predict infertility from the birth chart. IMO, this is the most important point in this discussion.
Moog
Well-known member
That doesn't mean to say it can't be done reliably. Just that you've not seen it yet.
I'm operating under the working assumption that I've not seen the limits of what can and can't be done with astrology yet.
The important part of the discussion is; how do you sensitively transmit what you read to other people?
The rest is a side discussion about what can and can't be be done with astrology. Which is perfectly fine and interesting, I have no problems with exploring that. But it does seems to be more revealing about us and our perceptions and experiences as students of astrology than it reveals about astrology.
Moog
Well-known member
There's a very small section on 'fertility problems' on ADB, if anyone would like to conduct a study, I will be doing so at some point when I've got more free time.
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Category:Family_:_Parenting_:_Birthing_-_Fertility_problems
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Category:Family_:_Parenting_:_Birthing_-_Fertility_problems
miquar
Well-known member
Yes, a slight branching off from the question you opened the thread with. But I don't think that you can see bad news in a chart, because whatever is in the chart has already been experienced by the native in some form. So there is nothing new to tell - just illuminating the native's experiences. Of course I respect other approaches than mine, and don't consider that my approach is without its blind spots and limitations. Also, I don't assume that astrology cannot be used to detect infertility, I just believe that until techniques are found which can do so with absolute certainty, it is dangerous to use astrology in this way.
In other words, my response to the original question is that the only way to sensitively deliver bad news about black and white issues like infertility, which may not be true news, is to not deliver it at all.
But yes I agree that these kind of issues reveal our natures as astrologers more than anything else.
And good luck with the research.
In other words, my response to the original question is that the only way to sensitively deliver bad news about black and white issues like infertility, which may not be true news, is to not deliver it at all.
But yes I agree that these kind of issues reveal our natures as astrologers more than anything else.
And good luck with the research.
Caro
Well-known member
I just looked at the data source and Bob Dylan is on there, he had five kids. (actually 6)
now maybe that is why he had a bitter divorce or there is some issue with this data bank?!
or were his seeds blowing in the wind. ha ha - well I think its funny.
am I hearing this right: 'its not ok to talk about fertility but it is ok to decipher from the chart that one is gay.
'
Its a mad world.
now maybe that is why he had a bitter divorce or there is some issue with this data bank?!
or were his seeds blowing in the wind. ha ha - well I think its funny.
am I hearing this right: 'its not ok to talk about fertility but it is ok to decipher from the chart that one is gay.
'Its a mad world.
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Judy_AzVirgo
Well-known member
Right, Moog. Posts have veered pretty far away from your original comment. Maybe it's time to get off the baby subject and onto something else... work, money, relationship, whatever, as a basis for the discussion.
How to counsel clients is an important issue. There are a number of books on astrological counseling, some of which you might want to explore. Just to name a few: Maritha Pottenger, Healing with the Horoscope (I read it many years ago; kind of dry, but interesting); Erin Sullivan's book on family dynamics (wonderful book, if somewhat specific) and her book on midlife and aging; and a really good book by Donna Cunningham, The Consulting Astrologer's Guidebook. Actually, any of her books might be useful if you're looking for "compassionate counseling". That's what she excels at. I strongly suspect that Donna wouldn't shirk discussing any subject she deems important to a client.
Check this article from her website: http://skywriter.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/how-to-break-bad-news/
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Well said Moog! And IMO it was not a mistake on your part to focus on this interesting issue - because this thread has provided a useful opportunity to air and discuss an - as you say -often contentious subject.
Fwiw IMO if one is of the opinion that one has 'discerned bad news in a natal chart' it is vitally important to consider to what extent one may have been entirely mistaken in doing so BEFORE IRREVOCABLY 'delivering bad news'. For example, Doctors all too frequently make erroneous diagnoses and IMO fwiw, neither Astrological Practice nor Medical Practice confer 'god-like powers.' Doctors 'practice' and astrologers 'practice' – why? Because both are continually learning/re-learning.
But that's just my two cents worth aka my opinion and is of course of as much worth as anyone's two cents worth
Judy_AzVirgo
Well-known member
I agree, JA. (Honest, I do!) It was not a mistake to bring up the issue. Every astrologer has different ways of communicating with clients, as we've very definitely seen here!
Moog
Well-known member
I feel the energy boiling up over these subjects. And though I can seem a bit bull headed about things, and perhaps too confident of my convictions, I'm not really out to cause conflict and emotional mayhem.
Perhaps it's a difference in culture. Perhaps there are unconsciously held taboos at work here.
The Indians who sometimes frequent this board have no problem with looking at fertility. And longevity predictions are standard in Indian astrology. The first part of many trad texts, western and eastern, is the bit that tells you how to find out how long a person will live.
Likely they'd perhaps have no problem with divining sexuality either. I don't know about that one.
As a profoundly Rahuic being, I've always found it hard not to transgress the mores and taboos of the cultural matrix I was born into. To my constant detriment
But, as Popeye said, I yam what I yam
Perhaps it's a difference in culture. Perhaps there are unconsciously held taboos at work here.
The Indians who sometimes frequent this board have no problem with looking at fertility. And longevity predictions are standard in Indian astrology. The first part of many trad texts, western and eastern, is the bit that tells you how to find out how long a person will live.
Likely they'd perhaps have no problem with divining sexuality either. I don't know about that one.
As a profoundly Rahuic being, I've always found it hard not to transgress the mores and taboos of the cultural matrix I was born into. To my constant detriment
But, as Popeye said, I yam what I yam
Moog
Well-known member
Well said Moog! And IMO it was not a mistake on your part to focus on this interesting issue - because this thread has provided a useful opportunity to air and discuss an - as you say -often contentious subject.
Fwiw IMO if one is of the opinion that one has 'discerned bad news in a natal chart' it is vitally important to consider to what extent one may have been entirely mistaken in doing so BEFORE IRREVOCABLY 'delivering bad news'. For example, Doctors all too frequently make erroneous diagnoses and IMO fwiw, neither Astrological Practice nor Medical Practice confer 'god-like powers.' Doctors 'practice' and astrologers 'practice' – why? Because both are continually learning/re-learning.
But that's just my two cents worth aka my opinion and is of course of as much worth as anyone's two cents worth
You're on my wavelength about a lot of these things.
I certainly don't think my powers are 'godlike'. I see it like reading a newspaper. Except it's a newspaper most people can't read. I just say what I read. I can't read everything in it either.
I also think the thread has been ultimately quite useful and interesting in a few ways.