Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology > Houses & cusps

Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 01-06-2020, 01:24 AM
wan wan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,130
The house system you like and why

Hello. Just wondering what people's preferences are in regards to the house system they use.

When I first started out, I had zero idea about the different systems. I just always went to astrolabe, and I believe the system they use is placidus (or if not that, then Koch). I really liked it, because they go by degree, not signs; plus they have unequal house sizes. For example, you can have ascendant in Aries, Nadir in say, Cancer 29, and Mars in Leo in 2, and your mars would be in the 4th, instead of the 5th, which is what one would normally expect for an Aries rising. Also, you could have one house that's either very big or small, and there can be intercepted house/s.

To me, this added a bit of complexity. I also liked the "uncertainty", meaning that your planets could be in different houses than you would normally expect, and of course, they could also be the houses that you did expect. So it's uncertain, which I really liked. Although now I look back, these are probably shallow reasons for liking a particular system. Now, just a few weeks ago, I stumbled upon the whole sign system. At first I didn't like the fact that it goes strictly by sign, and kind of just ignores degrees. However, I have found that my Venus and Mercury, which are in Leo, and normally in the 5th house under Placidus, are now in my 6th. This just seems to make sense to me, although I am not sure if it's due to my Sun also in 6th.

Anyway, just want to hear what people's experiences have been. Do you go with a system that emphasizes on signs, or one that goes with degrees? Or something else entirely. Educate me, I always want to learn more.

Thanks.


Last edited by wan; 01-06-2020 at 01:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Unread 01-06-2020, 01:28 AM
petosiris petosiris is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,050
Re: The house system you like and why

Quote:
Originally Posted by wan View Post
Hello. Just wondering what people's preferences are in regards to the house system they use.

When I first started out, I had zero idea about the different systems. I just always went to astrolabe, and I believe the system they use is placidus (or if not that, then Koch). I really liked it, because they go by degree, not signs. For example, you can have ascendant in Aries, Nadir in say, Cancer 29, and Mars in Leo in 2, and your mars would be in the 4th, instead of the 5th, which is what one would normally expect for an Aries rising.

To me, this added a bit of complexity. I also liked the "uncertainty", meaning that your planets could be in different houses than you would normally expect, and of course, they could also be the houses that you did expect. So it's uncertain, which I really liked. Although now I look back, these are probably shallow reasons for liking a particular system. Now, just a few weeks ago, I stumbled upon the whole sign system. At first I didn't like the fact that it goes strictly by sign, and kind of just ignores degrees. However, I have found that my Venus and Mercury, which are in Leo, and normally in the 5th house under Placidus, are now in my 6th. This just seems to make sense to me, although I am not sure if it's due to my Sun also in 6th.

Anyway, just want to hear what people's experiences have been. Do you go with a system that emphasizes on signs, or one that goes with degrees? Or something else entirely. Educate me, I always want to learn more.

Thanks.
The method of hourly trisections called Placidus. It is natural and is what the houses are based upon - risings, culminations, settings and anti-culminations. Some other time-based quadrant systems (Alchabitius for example) are plausible too. Whole signs and equal houses are not the astronomical phenomena on which the houses were theorized though.

Last edited by petosiris; 01-06-2020 at 01:41 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (01-06-2020)
  #3  
Unread 01-06-2020, 02:17 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 56,143
Re: The house system you like and why

Quote:
Originally Posted by wan View Post
Hello. Just wondering what people's preferences are in regards to the house system they use.

When I first started out, I had zero idea about the different systems. I just always went to astrolabe, and I believe the system they use is placidus (or if not that, then Koch). I really liked it, because they go by degree, not signs; plus they have unequal house sizes. For example, you can have ascendant in Aries, Nadir in say, Cancer 29, and Mars in Leo in 2, and your mars would be in the 4th, instead of the 5th, which is what one would normally expect for an Aries rising. Also, you could have one house that's either very big or small, and there can be intercepted house/s.

To me, this added a bit of complexity. I also liked the "uncertainty", meaning that your planets could be in different houses than you would normally expect, and of course, they could also be the houses that you did expect. So it's uncertain, which I really liked. Although now I look back, these are probably shallow reasons for liking a particular system. Now, just a few weeks ago, I stumbled upon the whole sign system. At first I didn't like the fact that it goes strictly by sign, and kind of just ignores degrees. However, I have found that my Venus and Mercury, which are in Leo, and normally in the 5th house under Placidus, are now in my 6th. This just seems to make sense to me, although I am not sure if it's due to my Sun also in 6th.

Anyway, just want to hear what people's experiences have been. Do you go with a system that emphasizes on signs, or one that goes with degrees? Or something else entirely. Educate me, I always want to learn more.

Thanks.
Konrad has some good advice
i.e

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post

Honestly, I don't even look at houses all that much.
I find they are to delineation what transits are to time-lords.



In the example above, and using the Babylonian fixed zodiac
and not the Tropical calendrical measurement, this woman's marriage woes are obvious.
Valens states that the Moon invisible is one sign that the native will not marry. Venus' condition is also important.
The native has had some form of relationship as Venus is in the 11th sign and close to culminating
(so she can produce her natural significations),
but she is in the bounds of Saturn and the sign of Mars.
Being in Saturn's bounds can produce cold or odd relationships
(bound lord as physical manifestation of planet) while Mars' poor condition (being Rx and opposed to the Sun)
shows that they will not last (the quality Venus has to work with).
Finally, the Lot of Marriage is in Cancer and ruled by this same invisible Moon
(who is also on the road to nowhere void-in-course), and is managed by Venus.
Venus is in aversion to the Moon, so she can't manage her significations
and therefore we have a build-up of testimonies of a poor love-life, no houses or rulerships needed.
It is probably best to remember that
we are reading a natal chart
and not a horary, from my observation of others
and in my own experience, an over-dependancy on houses
as the initial method of delineation
leads to erroneous conclusions.
They can be useful for fine-tuning the context of the planets and Lots
and can sometimes give some valuable information, but they will never supercede a planet.
Too often have I seen it said (and said myself)
that a planet in the 7th adds a certain quality to the relationships
only to be completely wrong
and then to discover that Venus tells the story beautifully.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Unread 01-06-2020, 02:20 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 56,143
Re: The house system you like and why

dr. farr comments as follows
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign
- it worked better
(FOR ME)
I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is)
or whether it was invented by Badda Bing
at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago:
only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me
(ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above,
does it work
(producing delineations and predicitions)
better than what I have previously been doing?

Well, whole sign did all that, for me,
so I switched;
but I am not going to try
to convince anyone of anything about it,
except for beginners
- to you who might just be starting out,
I would say:
try whole sign first,
and see how well it might work for you...
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Unread 01-06-2020, 02:23 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 56,143
Re: The house system you like and why

WHOLE SIGN HOUSES clearly determines TOPICS
and eliminates ambiguity of HOUSE location of PLANET

and then
using any quadrant house system
such as Placidus, Alcabitius et al
assists with determining PLANETARY STRENGTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueLibra View Post

Just changed my WHOLE way of thinking about it. Not saying I was looking for validation but i just couldn't return to the cusping style but cuspa as a sensitive point makes so much sense to me. For me, like Dr.Farr, whole sign is just far more accurate from personality to transit. I dont dablle in progressions too too much so i havent applied it there but This was such a great reply. I actually read that reaponse before and believe it or not its the main reason I stayed with whole sign and actually switched to it. You'd be surprised how often your name and Dr.Farr appeared on things when I googled astrology advice. I think yall were here when I first came.

Amazing post tho. Reading it a second time jist makes me solidfy my stance with whole sign houses. I'm still stuck at how much more since it makes. I think ppl think whole sign ditches cusps all together and even I thought it did but it doesn't it just reapplies them in a different way. God that makes so much sense to me. I have been on other websites where ppl use the cusps in order to have the desired placements they seek in their chart but i always felt like this was wrong. It never made sense to me to have a 12th and 1st house libra. It honestly confused me. Whole sign just provided more accuracy for me. And i didn't just use it for myself. I had some ppl ask me to read their chart and i took guesses using the whole sign system but never told them that's what i was using. They were shocked by how accurate I was and when i told them the system they looked even more shocked.

Safe to say im sticking with this system and now I have a new and more efficient way to use it
tsmalls comment at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=94683
explains the rationale

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post

I use both whole signs and Placidus.
The original idea of quadrant based house systems was to determine angularity,
and never to replace the concept of topics.
So I count signs for topics
and use a house system overlaid onto it.

Because, as I mentioned above, capability
and angularity/ability to act
are two different things.....
tsmall uses BOTH whole signs AND Placidus

I use BOTH whole signs AND Alcabitius




some use whole sign AND Regiomontanus
there are multiple QUADRANT house systems
its a matter of personal choice which to use in tandem with WHOLE SIGN
IF one chooses to do so

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

Yes, the dominant house system in Greco-Roman astrology
(until about the time of the end of the Classical Period) was whole sign,
but (among the famous very early Arabic astrologers of the transitional period)
only Abu'Mashar continued the ancient Greco-Roman practice,
and the whole sign house format became virtually forgotten (in the West)
until the mid-1990's.

Personally I think it was an historical tragedy for our astrological art
that whole sign houses became lost to memory,
for my experience
over the past nearly 20 years of exclusively using whole sign houses
has convinced me
of the more consistent accuracy of this house system, over any other...

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Unread 01-06-2020, 03:13 PM
sworm09's Avatar
sworm09 sworm09 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 410
Re: The house system you like and why

Quote:
Originally Posted by wan View Post
Hello. Just wondering what people's preferences are in regards to the house system they use.

When I first started out, I had zero idea about the different systems. I just always went to astrolabe, and I believe the system they use is placidus (or if not that, then Koch). I really liked it, because they go by degree, not signs; plus they have unequal house sizes. For example, you can have ascendant in Aries, Nadir in say, Cancer 29, and Mars in Leo in 2, and your mars would be in the 4th, instead of the 5th, which is what one would normally expect for an Aries rising. Also, you could have one house that's either very big or small, and there can be intercepted house/s.

To me, this added a bit of complexity. I also liked the "uncertainty", meaning that your planets could be in different houses than you would normally expect, and of course, they could also be the houses that you did expect. So it's uncertain, which I really liked. Although now I look back, these are probably shallow reasons for liking a particular system. Now, just a few weeks ago, I stumbled upon the whole sign system. At first I didn't like the fact that it goes strictly by sign, and kind of just ignores degrees. However, I have found that my Venus and Mercury, which are in Leo, and normally in the 5th house under Placidus, are now in my 6th. This just seems to make sense to me, although I am not sure if it's due to my Sun also in 6th.

Anyway, just want to hear what people's experiences have been. Do you go with a system that emphasizes on signs, or one that goes with degrees? Or something else entirely. Educate me, I always want to learn more.

Thanks.
Whole Sign for topics, another house system for strength, as JA just outlined. Right now I like Alcabitius and Equal houses, Alcabitius because the fact that it's based in time appeals to me and Equal because I like how the cusps still maintain the same relationship to the Ascendant as Whole Sign houses.

If you're having problems picking a house system, try to learn about the rationale for each of them. That'll help you figure out which house system is best for you. I use Whole Signs because I like Hellenistic and Persian Astrology, plus the rationale for why some houses are good and bad make a lot of sense to me when you take it as being based on the relationship the sign has to the Ascendant. As shown in JA's quote of Konrad, you can say a lot about how a planet will manifest without even making reference to the meanings of the houses. Venus in the 12th sign is going to show more negative Venusian things (All things considered). I like Alcabitius because the whole idea of angularity seems to be based on the planets rising, setting, and culminating, which time-based house systems like Alcabitius focus on by placing planets in houses based on the diurnal arc of the Ascendant. Equal houses are just Whole Sign houses with a specific point in the Sign being highlighted as being particularly important.

Ryhan Butler, who specializes in Medieval astrology, has a series of Twitter threads in which he explains all of the major house systems in easily digestible language. A quick Google search will help you find it immediately.

Last edited by sworm09; 01-06-2020 at 03:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Unread 01-06-2020, 07:28 PM
Harmelia's Avatar
Harmelia Harmelia is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Sedona, AZ
Posts: 245
Re: The house system you like and why

Quote:
Originally Posted by wan View Post
Hello. Just wondering what people's preferences are in regards to the house system they use.

When I first started out, I had zero idea about the different systems. I just always went to astrolabe, and I believe the system they use is placidus (or if not that, then Koch). I really liked it, because they go by degree, not signs; plus they have unequal house sizes. For example, you can have ascendant in Aries, Nadir in say, Cancer 29, and Mars in Leo in 2, and your mars would be in the 4th, instead of the 5th, which is what one would normally expect for an Aries rising. Also, you could have one house that's either very big or small, and there can be intercepted house/s.

To me, this added a bit of complexity. I also liked the "uncertainty", meaning that your planets could be in different houses than you would normally expect, and of course, they could also be the houses that you did expect. So it's uncertain, which I really liked. Although now I look back, these are probably shallow reasons for liking a particular system. Now, just a few weeks ago, I stumbled upon the whole sign system. At first I didn't like the fact that it goes strictly by sign, and kind of just ignores degrees. However, I have found that my Venus and Mercury, which are in Leo, and normally in the 5th house under Placidus, are now in my 6th. This just seems to make sense to me, although I am not sure if it's due to my Sun also in 6th.

Anyway, just want to hear what people's experiences have been. Do you go with a system that emphasizes on signs, or one that goes with degrees? Or something else entirely. Educate me, I always want to learn more.

Thanks.

I think people use the house system that works for them. I think all the house systems have merit. I like the Placidus the best. Sometimes I'll use different chart systems to compare them in someone's chart - just for fun - and usually, even if it's a different house system, I come to the same conclusions only from a different angle (no pun intended). Intercepted signs are often very meaningful to my clients, so I tend to use Placidus. It's an extra tool to help people understand and find ways out of tough spots. I do like reading what other astrologers say about someone's chart from a different house system - it's all useful. But I still like Placidus and always begin there.
__________________
Fate and free will are equally powerful forces. Yet I consider free will more important, because it is our conscious choices that create our fate.
~ Veda Vyasa, Hindu Sage
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Unread 01-06-2020, 07:53 PM
Kite's Avatar
Kite Kite is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tied to a string theory
Posts: 722
Re: The house system you like and why

Quote:
Originally Posted by wan View Post
Hello. Just wondering what people's preferences are in regards to the house system they use.

When I first started out, I had zero idea about the different systems. I just always went to astrolabe, and I believe the system they use is placidus (or if not that, then Koch). I really liked it, because they go by degree, not signs; plus they have unequal house sizes. For example, you can have ascendant in Aries, Nadir in say, Cancer 29, and Mars in Leo in 2, and your mars would be in the 4th, instead of the 5th, which is what one would normally expect for an Aries rising. Also, you could have one house that's either very big or small, and there can be intercepted house/s.

To me, this added a bit of complexity. I also liked the "uncertainty", meaning that your planets could be in different houses than you would normally expect, and of course, they could also be the houses that you did expect. So it's uncertain, which I really liked. Although now I look back, these are probably shallow reasons for liking a particular system. Now, just a few weeks ago, I stumbled upon the whole sign system. At first I didn't like the fact that it goes strictly by sign, and kind of just ignores degrees. However, I have found that my Venus and Mercury, which are in Leo, and normally in the 5th house under Placidus, are now in my 6th. This just seems to make sense to me, although I am not sure if it's due to my Sun also in 6th.

Anyway, just want to hear what people's experiences have been. Do you go with a system that emphasizes on signs, or one that goes with degrees? Or something else entirely. Educate me, I always want to learn more.

Thanks.
I used quadrant houses for 40 years and played mainly with Placidus, Koch and Campanus systems. I was never able to truly understand my chart until I moved to whole sign houses and began using traditional astrology techniques and rulers. I still integrate the outer planets but not as rulers or co-rulers. There is an elegance to the traditional system that makes sense to me.
__________________
Simple ain't easy.
-----Thelonius Monk

Chart
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Kite For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (01-07-2020)
  #9  
Unread 01-07-2020, 05:26 AM
petosiris petosiris is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,050
Re: The house system you like and why

Quote:
Originally Posted by sworm09 View Post
I use Whole Signs because I like Hellenistic and Persian Astrology, plus the rationale for why some houses are good and bad make a lot of sense to me when you take it as being based on the relationship the sign has to the Ascendant.
Ptolemy mentions the aspect consideration in the context of equal houses (with 5 degree offset) in the Tetrabiblos 3.10 - http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...os/3B*.html#10

A Hellenistic commentator on Ptolemy said that ''he (Ptolemy) doesn't follow the opinion of the Egyptians, that is, that one must take the 15 pre-ascending [and] (the 15) post-ascending degrees'' which is a Vehlow-type system that has also been used for very long time in Indian astrology.

A controversial interpretation could involve saying that an aspect doesn't need to be within signs, at least within the context of diurnal motion. Martin Gansten suggested once on skyscript that the ancients may have sometimes used the term ''sign/zoidion'' for any range of 30 degrees like ''place'' and ''twelfth-part'' were sometimes used.

Last edited by petosiris; 01-07-2020 at 05:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to petosiris For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (01-07-2020), sworm09 (01-07-2020)
  #10  
Unread 01-07-2020, 07:08 AM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 56,143
Re: The house system you like and why

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kite View Post


I used quadrant houses for 40 years
and played mainly with Placidus, Koch and Campanus systems.

I was never able to truly understand my chart

until I moved to whole sign houses and began using traditional astrology techniques and rulers.



I still integrate the outer planets but not as rulers or co-rulers.

There is an elegance to the traditional system that makes sense to me.
Whole sign certainly clarifies topics
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
house, system

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.