Please help me with my chart
- Thread starter Elisems
- Start date
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Re: Please help!
This rough procedure is useful for calculating the Lot of Fortune at a glance
and it can also be used to calculate other Lots or Arabic Parts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpOVfJmEFH4
A brief tutorial on how to calculate the "Lot of Fortune" or "Part of Fortune" in astrology.But before I sign off, I had another question for you...
There is a point in a chart that is highly important for traditional astrologers called the "Lot of Fortune", also known as the "Part of Fortune". In a night chart the way I measure it is by measuring from the Moon to the Sun, then I take that measurement and go by that number of degrees in the same direction to arrive at the Lot of Fortune. The distance from your Moon to your Sun is about 52°. So your Lot of Fortune would be at around 13° Virgo.
(Could someone please check my math?!?! In his kind way Chris Brennan told me that I was terrible at this!
This rough procedure is useful for calculating the Lot of Fortune at a glance
and it can also be used to calculate other Lots or Arabic Parts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpOVfJmEFH4
Rhys
Well-known member
Wow, we are now in the "Read my chart" section. This is actually great, because I wanted to comment on your Pluto.
My orientation is currently traditional, but like many of my ilk, I haven't thrown the baby out with the bath water and still use the wonderful tool kit of modern astrology when appropriate. While I do not attribute outer planets to rulerships (for me, Mars rules Aries by day and Scorpio by night, etc.) I definitely take outers into consideration in the context of a natal chart, especially an outer that is so close to the ascendant, as is the case with your natal Pluto. When an outer is so close to an angle, we usually feel it quite strongly and evidently in our lives, there is nothing "unconscious" about an energy like that, although the way Pluto of the unconscious mind usually manifests is as situations that are seemingly "external" to you
You have both Mars and Pluto in the first natal house, and Pluto is almost smack dab on the ascendant. Having Mars in its own domicile of Scorpio points to your being courageous and bold in exploring emotional and other areas "where no person has dared yet tread". Mars tolerates no restraints with respect to this, and Pluto even less so. You must be free to do what ya gotta do.
I would advise any person with a Pluto as prominent as yours to get into evolutionary astrology à la Jeff Green (and not Steven Forrest, who doesn't use Pluto in his evolutionary work. Steven's work is brilliant and uses the Moon's nodes and the entire chart in his delineations, but with a chart like yours, you really want to go directly to the Pluto symbolism, which Forrest doesn't).
Essentially, according to this evolutionary current, having Pluto in H1 - and even more so having it at the ascendant - means that you have been learning about how not to let others tell you what to do. The evolutionary purpose of this position is to have independant experience and the freedom to grow and express oneself without allowing others to interfere.
Learning this lesson would normally be painful, but it has been and/or continues to be essential that you do (completely learn how to do this in your life situations). Once this lesson has been assimilated, then the first house Pluto person can begin the work of learning to integrate the 7th house polarity point into their life, i.e. learning to relate to others while maintaining one's center and not losing this center while doing so.
Jeff Green uses the Moon's nodes to symbolize the arena of life where this Pluto work will take place. In your case you have the south node in H11 pointing to the north node in H5. I found this highly interesting in terms of your chart in that being part of a group of some kind (H11) is where you would normally be coming from. But where you are headed and what you need to learn has to do with the north node in H5, which has to do with individual creative self expression, dovetailing with your Leo MC!
So we see the same theme repeating itself in your chart, don't we?
With Pluto on the ascendant, I'd urge you to find out more about it. You can either get Jeff Green's original book from the early nineties entitled "Pluto, an evolutionary Journey", if you can find a copy; it might be out of print - or very expensive. Another good book on the same subject that has been recently written and contains almost exactly the same info is by the British astrologer Mark Jones, entitled, "Healing the Soul: Pluto, Uranus and the lunar nodes." I highly recommend it.
That's it for today. When I come back tomorrow I hope to return to our discussion of the third house as the house of the heretic!
Kind regards - Rhys
My orientation is currently traditional, but like many of my ilk, I haven't thrown the baby out with the bath water and still use the wonderful tool kit of modern astrology when appropriate. While I do not attribute outer planets to rulerships (for me, Mars rules Aries by day and Scorpio by night, etc.) I definitely take outers into consideration in the context of a natal chart, especially an outer that is so close to the ascendant, as is the case with your natal Pluto. When an outer is so close to an angle, we usually feel it quite strongly and evidently in our lives, there is nothing "unconscious" about an energy like that, although the way Pluto of the unconscious mind usually manifests is as situations that are seemingly "external" to you
You have both Mars and Pluto in the first natal house, and Pluto is almost smack dab on the ascendant. Having Mars in its own domicile of Scorpio points to your being courageous and bold in exploring emotional and other areas "where no person has dared yet tread". Mars tolerates no restraints with respect to this, and Pluto even less so. You must be free to do what ya gotta do.
I would advise any person with a Pluto as prominent as yours to get into evolutionary astrology à la Jeff Green (and not Steven Forrest, who doesn't use Pluto in his evolutionary work. Steven's work is brilliant and uses the Moon's nodes and the entire chart in his delineations, but with a chart like yours, you really want to go directly to the Pluto symbolism, which Forrest doesn't).
Essentially, according to this evolutionary current, having Pluto in H1 - and even more so having it at the ascendant - means that you have been learning about how not to let others tell you what to do. The evolutionary purpose of this position is to have independant experience and the freedom to grow and express oneself without allowing others to interfere.
Learning this lesson would normally be painful, but it has been and/or continues to be essential that you do (completely learn how to do this in your life situations). Once this lesson has been assimilated, then the first house Pluto person can begin the work of learning to integrate the 7th house polarity point into their life, i.e. learning to relate to others while maintaining one's center and not losing this center while doing so.
Jeff Green uses the Moon's nodes to symbolize the arena of life where this Pluto work will take place. In your case you have the south node in H11 pointing to the north node in H5. I found this highly interesting in terms of your chart in that being part of a group of some kind (H11) is where you would normally be coming from. But where you are headed and what you need to learn has to do with the north node in H5, which has to do with individual creative self expression, dovetailing with your Leo MC!
So we see the same theme repeating itself in your chart, don't we?
With Pluto on the ascendant, I'd urge you to find out more about it. You can either get Jeff Green's original book from the early nineties entitled "Pluto, an evolutionary Journey", if you can find a copy; it might be out of print - or very expensive. Another good book on the same subject that has been recently written and contains almost exactly the same info is by the British astrologer Mark Jones, entitled, "Healing the Soul: Pluto, Uranus and the lunar nodes." I highly recommend it.
That's it for today. When I come back tomorrow I hope to return to our discussion of the third house as the house of the heretic!
Kind regards - Rhys
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david starling
Well-known member
Elisems, any opinions concerning the Astrological Ages in general, and/or the Aquarian Age in particular?
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
you are new to the way our forum works
and have stated clearly you are looking for a traditional reading
so then
it is apt to highlight
that to obtain a traditionally focused reading
you can commence a fresh thread on our traditional board
without mentioning any of the Modern outer planets at all
thus keeping to the rules of our traditional board
stated at the top of our Traditional board page
and
that is the way to focus on traditional astrology discussion of your natal chart
while at the same time
continuing with general astrological discussion on this thread
[Moderator Note: Unless you provide your own traditional interpretation of your chart, your chart goes in the Read My Chart Forum]
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david starling
Well-known member
This has become an extremely informative thread, especially because Rhys is able to cut to the chase and explain things clearly. NO placements above the Horizon! Very unusual in my experience.
Rhys, here's a question for you: Given the implicit power of the Ages concept, and ignoring all of the enthusiastic hoopla generated by "the Song" and the "New Age Movement", why is it (in your opinion) that the Ages haven't found a place in the Sidereal community? The line of intersection of Earth's orbital and equatorial planes is obviously important enough to be given serious consideration, and once the Ayanamsa has been chosen, there's no doubt as to where the First Points of Spring and Fall are located in a Chart. Therefore, the disagreement over "when does the Aquarian Age begin" is not a factor, and on the face of it, there's no requirement that the Aquarian Age be considered a positive phenomena. So, why is it not on the Sidereal radar in a meaningful way?
Rhys, here's a question for you: Given the implicit power of the Ages concept, and ignoring all of the enthusiastic hoopla generated by "the Song" and the "New Age Movement", why is it (in your opinion) that the Ages haven't found a place in the Sidereal community? The line of intersection of Earth's orbital and equatorial planes is obviously important enough to be given serious consideration, and once the Ayanamsa has been chosen, there's no doubt as to where the First Points of Spring and Fall are located in a Chart. Therefore, the disagreement over "when does the Aquarian Age begin" is not a factor, and on the face of it, there's no requirement that the Aquarian Age be considered a positive phenomena. So, why is it not on the Sidereal radar in a meaningful way?
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
so then
in order to receive comments from traditional western astrologers
as well as traditional sidereal astrologers
do your best to provide your own traditional interpretation of your chart
on our traditional board
however
obviously
since you have stated you are new to traditional astrology
when posting your thread on our traditional board
use a TABLE OF ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES AND DEBILITIES
to assist with finding the essential dignities and debilities
of the seven classical traditional planets of your natal chart
i.e.
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn
so then
in order to receive comments from traditional western astrologers
as well as traditional sidereal astrologers
do your best to provide your own traditional interpretation of your chart
on our traditional board
however
obviously
since you have stated you are new to traditional astrology
when posting your thread on our traditional board
use a TABLE OF ESSENTIAL DIGNITIES AND DEBILITIES
to assist with finding the essential dignities and debilities
of the seven classical traditional planets of your natal chart
i.e.
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn
Yes.. but I don't even know what that is, hence my asking for help. ☺
Thanks Rhys,
It seems our forum thread got copy and pasted onto another I had going.
I'll look up that Jeff Green book you mentioned. Glad we can discuss pluto now! I never understood why my life has been so intense and difficult until I finally started looking into astrology, but having pluto there makes a lot of sense. So far what I've read about it has just been what I've found on the internet. I understand that it has to do with themes of death, resurrection and power which are all prominent themes in my life. It's not always so dramatic sounding but I'm used to killing off aspects of myself I no longer find useful and transforming as I see necessary. I have the characteristic "plutonic" eyes and I can definitely give the look of death when needed.
It seems our forum thread got copy and pasted onto another I had going.
I'll look up that Jeff Green book you mentioned. Glad we can discuss pluto now! I never understood why my life has been so intense and difficult until I finally started looking into astrology, but having pluto there makes a lot of sense. So far what I've read about it has just been what I've found on the internet. I understand that it has to do with themes of death, resurrection and power which are all prominent themes in my life. It's not always so dramatic sounding but I'm used to killing off aspects of myself I no longer find useful and transforming as I see necessary. I have the characteristic "plutonic" eyes and I can definitely give the look of death when needed.
Rhys
Well-known member
Hi David
I'm strictly tropical in orientation and I'm up to my ears in trying to get my head around Wm Lilly at present. This is not an issue that I'm familiar with and alas won't be able to consider at this time, due to time constraints
Kind regards - Rhys.
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Rhys
Well-known member
Yeah, I was completely confused at first and thought it had been erased. I didn't remember seeing those posts by my dear colleague the Conspiracy Theorist, so I thought I was on the wrong thread at first. Weird...
Anyway, you realize, of course, that as JupiterAsc was saying, traditional astrology does not work with outers, so if you are looking for a traditional reading, you can forget about talking about Pluto.
In any case, I've said all I have to say about PLuto for the moment, so going back to traditional astrology, I wanted to understand how the ruler of the tenth house being in the 3rd house worked out in your life.
We have already touched on this and did not come up with a conclusive answer, so I thought it might relate to your seventh house, which traditionally has to to with relationships/marriage.
Your seventh house is ruled by Taurus, and you have Venus the ruler of Taurus in the 4th house. You also have the sect light of the chart (Moon) present in H4. A traditional delineation of this placement would be along the lines of that a native having a placement like this (such as yourself...)would view a serious relationship as living with their partner and establishing a home (H4 symbolism) with this partner. This H7/H4 symbolism, combined with the H3/H10 symbolism has me thinking that you are perhaps a homemaker, and indeed a shining light and source of strength to all those within the home! (H10 Leo).
Just guessing, of course, be one never knows unless one asks, ;-) And after we finish with that I would like to concentrate on the subject that JupiterAsc brought up, that of Essential Dignities.
- Rhys
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
on our forum
we are guided by moderators
and as the moderator has just highlighted in red
that
the way to find help with traditional interpretation
for any member interested in traditional approach
is to post their thread on the traditional board
making an effort at traditional interpretation
no matter how uninformed
and
in fact your original post which I quote below
would have been allowed to remain on our traditional board
if you had not mentioned an outer planet
and so
because you said on an earlier post as follows
and so, to support you with creating an opening thead on a new post on our traditional boardthat conforms to forum rules as just highlighted in red by a moderator
to enable you to explore the traditonal aspects of your natal chart
in a way that conforms to the rules of our forum
then
if you were to instead state on a new traditional thread
"......Hello, Could someone help me understand my chart?
Specifically, I'd like to know how having MARS in the first house of libra would pan out
since libra is supposed to be the house of beauty and balance.
Any input on my Sagittarius planets would be helpful too. Thank you...."
in the meantime
since ours is an astrological learning forum
the following is a link to detailed information explaining
how to use the Dignities Table I posted earlier
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html
and covers many of the basics of traditional interpretation
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Thanks Rhys,
I forgot to give you input about that. I am married and I recently started up a business that I currently run from home. I think its still too soon to say it has leo characteristics, but I am extremely ambitious. A big part of what I do is educational and I can get pretty animated when it comes to that. That may be why the 10th house is associated with the house of communication. I make and sell traditional herbal salves, balms, and whatnots. Most of what I do involves creativity which may have something to do with that north node. I've been an artist my entire life and love making just about anything. I enjoy painting, drawing, wood carving, herbalism, gardening, cooking, leather working, and anything that requires tedious skill. This makes me quite the homemaker though I'm a rather untraditional wife in most ways.
I forgot to give you input about that. I am married and I recently started up a business that I currently run from home. I think its still too soon to say it has leo characteristics, but I am extremely ambitious. A big part of what I do is educational and I can get pretty animated when it comes to that. That may be why the 10th house is associated with the house of communication. I make and sell traditional herbal salves, balms, and whatnots. Most of what I do involves creativity which may have something to do with that north node. I've been an artist my entire life and love making just about anything. I enjoy painting, drawing, wood carving, herbalism, gardening, cooking, leather working, and anything that requires tedious skill. This makes me quite the homemaker though I'm a rather untraditional wife in most ways.
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Rhys
Well-known member
Thanks for this feedback! H10 is not really about communication, although it can include it; H10 describes one's career or public image. H3 is communication in addition to other things. You have Venus and Moon in H4 (home, but also parents!), which is ruled by H2 Saturn, so it makes sense that your business is in your home. Leo is a highly creative sign and rules H10 career, so it makes sense you that you are creative and an artist. Frankly, the first thing I thought when I saw your H3 was "poet" because you have Sun, cazimi Mercury (which explains the eductation angle!) and Neptune there. Either that or music. But what you do fits the symbolism nicely. Neptune in H3 would definitely give you contact into the universal unconscious, hence all the artistic activity (Venus) in H4.
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Rhys
Well-known member
Thanks Rhys
JupiterAsc suggested we look at the essential dignities next, which I think is a great idea! I have computer software that does essential dignities, but I prefer doing it by hand as it serves to make me more familiar with the chart when I do so.
So here we go! JupiterAsc and whoever else is following, please check my figures as I often make little silly mistakes, so if you see anything you don't agree with, please don't hesitate to say so.
I follow Lilly with planetary rulers, exaltations, detriment and fall and five +5 if a planet is in domicile, +4 for exaltation, -5 for detriment and -4 for falls.
I part ways with Lilly on triplicities (trigon rulers) and use the system of Dorotheus of Sidon, which have a day and night triplicity ruler (as does Lilly) and also a third “mixed” ruler (Lilly didn't use this one for various reasons), but Hellenistic and other traditional people do.
In horary and electional charts I only award triplicity dignity (+3) when the planet is in sect (i.e. night or day), but in a natal chart like this one, I award some dignity (+2) regardless of sect.
I use Chaldean terms and like Lilly when they a dignified I give +2.
For Face I use the Chaldean order of planets (Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury) and give +1, like Lilly.
Here are the caculations I did for Elisem's chart:
Saturn 24° Sagittarius H2 ruled by H6 Jupiter. In its triplicity (mixed +2), in its Face (+2), in its term (+1) Total +5
Jupiter 19°Aries H6 ruled by H1 Mars. In its triplicity by night (+3).
Total +3.
Mars 19° Scorpio HI is in domicile (+5), in its triplicity by night (+3)
Total +8.
Sun 2° Capricorn H3 ruled by H2 Saturn. Peregrine.
Total +0.
Venus 2° Aquarius H4 ruled by H2 Saturn. In in its Face (+2)
Total +2.
Mercury 2° H3 Capricorn ruled by H2 Saturn. Peregrine.
Total +0.
Moon 24° Aquarius H4 ruled by H2 Saturn. Is in its Face (+2)
Total +2.
In modern astrology Mars is the final depositor of Saturn and Jupiter.
Sun, Venus, Mercury and the Moon are ruled by Saturn, which is in turn ruled by Jupiter, so the final deposito is Mars.
In traditional astrology it looks as though Mars would be the ruler of the nativity, or the almuten.
JupiterAsc, have a look at these results and let me know how you would interpret them.
Kind regards
Rhys
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JUPITERASC
Well-known member
forum rules on any of our boards are not stringent
instead, forum rules are common sense
i.e.
there are numerous differences between traditional and modernist astrology
traditional astrology excludes the outers
that is not stringent
it is simply a fact of traditional astrology
for example
our Vedic board rules are not stringent for excluding Chinese astrology
similarly with traditional and modernist
there are differences
otherwise makes no sense to have separate boards
and the way or forum is organised is
traditional is a separate board from modernist astrology
HOWEVER - as forum rulses clearly state
BOTH may be discussed on any GENERAL astrology board
such as Read My Chart - which is where your thread was moved to
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Rhys that must have taken quite some time to prepare
thank you for kindly giving your time
Meanwhile, you mention you are a recent Lilly reader
and wonder whether you are aware of the ALMUTEM FIGURIS
a member who contributed generously to our forum is OMNISPHERICUS
who unfortunately has not posted at least four years now
BUT he did leave us with plenty of food for thought
including methods for calculating the Almutem Figuris
along with discussion on that theme
for example
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49000
Thank you for all that! I don't understand much of what you said regarding essential dignities, but it seems mars is the ruler of my chart? Does this mean that the defining characteristic of my life will be combativeness? I have always felt like I'm here to fight some sort of a battle..
Interesting what you said about being tapped into the collective unconscious.. Most of my art comes from my subconscious. I usually don't know why I'm drawing or painting most of what I create. I'll usually see a vivid image in my mind or a dream and I'll have to create it and its often rich in symbology which I normally don't understand. I also often dream of events in my life before they happen but I understand that's a tall claim (then again I am in an astrology forum so perhaps not).
Anyways, thank you for all your calculating and explanations so far! It's been really helpful!
Interesting what you said about being tapped into the collective unconscious.. Most of my art comes from my subconscious. I usually don't know why I'm drawing or painting most of what I create. I'll usually see a vivid image in my mind or a dream and I'll have to create it and its often rich in symbology which I normally don't understand. I also often dream of events in my life before they happen but I understand that's a tall claim (then again I am in an astrology forum so perhaps not).
Anyways, thank you for all your calculating and explanations so far! It's been really helpful!
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