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  #1  
Unread 01-15-2016, 01:38 PM
Stagolee Stagolee is offline
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Is my friendエs life in danger?

My friend suspects her life is in danger due to black magic cast upon her. Yesterday she had a stroke and went to the hospital (she is under 30 years old and in good shape). She is afraid that powerful persons are going to take her out because she knows too much about their dealings.

Worried about the situation I cast this chart for her.

My friend is represented by 11th house which is....saturn in sixth or jupiter in fifth? Both are peregrine, they have not much power to act. Jupiter is in detriment and Saturn in the house of illness so both describe her situation.

Moon is in Aries in eleventh house, next applying by trine aspect to saturn in sixth.
Now this is where Iエd need some help in interpreting because the chart is cast to someone else and I have not done that before. Iエd like to take a look on the rulers of houses 8 (death, transformation) and 12 (black magic) to deduce if things are going to get better. I would have to count 8th of 11th (Scorpio=Mars) and 12th of 11th (Aquarius=Saturn again). Right?

Moreover, is Moon co-significator of my friend, is it me, a timer, or someone/thing else? Here it rules houses 1,2 and 3 and turned houses 3, 4 and 5.

Your honest help very much appreciated! How would you interpret the significators?
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  #2  
Unread 01-15-2016, 06:30 PM
Stagolee Stagolee is offline
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

Iエll try again...

My friend is represented by the 11th house ruler, Saturn in sixth house which is turned eighth house. Venus the *itch, 12th house ruler of the radical chart, has left the conjunction with Saturn. In turned chart, Mars is the ruler of 8th house and Saturn again ruler of the 12th house. In radical chart Saturn rules both my friend and the 8th house. Moon will eventually aspect Saturn. Who is the Moon?
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  #3  
Unread 01-15-2016, 06:55 PM
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waybread waybread is offline
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

Can you go back to your saved chart at Astrodienst, and clarify whether the 11th house cusp is in late Aquarius or early Pisces? When you call up the chart, look at the upper left, and click on the additional tables. It will show you the signs and degrees of all of the house cusps. It is so close that I cannot read it off the chart.
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  #4  
Unread 01-15-2016, 07:04 PM
Stagolee Stagolee is offline
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

What a great tip, thank you. Should have confirmed that earlier. 11th house cusp is Aquarius 29 degrees 36 minutes.
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  #5  
Unread 01-15-2016, 07:24 PM
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

It does look to me as though the house of your friend (11th) is ruled by Aquarius, and that her 12th house (black magic) is also ruled by Saturn (Capricorn on the cusp.) Saturn is unhappy but the moon in the 11th applying to a trine with Saturn, and Saturn applying to the modern ruler of Aquarius (Uranus) to me suggests the potential for a positive outcome.

But here's the thing. Most sensible people do not believe in black magic. I'm sorry, but they don't. However, black magic is very real for people who do believe in it, and I've seen it cause them no end of fear and worry. So objectively there are medical reasons why a young person could suffer a stroke that have nothing to do with black magic.

Among other things, the moon rules the querent's take in the matter. If I read the chart in its radical sense, it shouts out to me that you are (understandably) really worried about your friend (moon in the 11th) with her signifier in the 6th house of poor health. From a modern astrology perspective, we see a "loaded" 11th house containing Uranus (modern ruler of friend's 12th and of sudden upsets, such as a stroke,) Neptune (rules illnesses that are difficult to diagnose,) Chiron (wounds that don't heal,) and the south node.

I also note that you're in Finland, where your high latitude tends to really skew the quadrant house cusps. While I think the chart is radical, it does suggest how an equal house or whole signs house system could give you a completely different answer.

I have to run now and can take a closer look later, but please really consider whether your own fearful beliefs are going to help or hinder your friend as she goes through this difficult point in her life.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
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Last edited by waybread; 01-15-2016 at 07:26 PM.
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  #6  
Unread 01-15-2016, 07:55 PM
Stagolee Stagolee is offline
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

Thank you for this interpretation!

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
..but please really consider whether your own fearful beliefs are going to help or hinder your friend as she goes through this difficult point in her life.
I agree with you! I donエt believe in black magic or that it could harm anyone. I think, if you believe in black magic it WILL harm you!
"Your thoughts create your reality." Yes Iエm very worried about my friends health, she is really vulnerable right now, due to difficult last year.

I would have interpreted this chart so that having the same significator for my friend and 8th house would signify that she is what she believes in.
If she thinks black magic will cause her another stroke then it will.

Thank you so much for your time and wise words. Would love to hear if you find anything else to pin point in order to help my friend.
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  #7  
Unread 01-15-2016, 08:26 PM
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

Thank you for your reasonable response.

If we "play it as it lays," this is from J. Lee Lehman's book, The Martial Art of Horary Astrology, which is based strongly though not entirely on William Lilly's Christian Astrology. As she points out, people did believe in bewitchment in the 17th century, so Lilly does take up the topic.

Lilly's testimonies are:

The ruler of the 12th in the 6th or vice versa
The ruler of the 12th in the 1st or vice versa
The ruler of the 8th in the 1st or vice versa "give a strong suspicion of witchcraft."
The same ruler of the 1st and the 12th
Ruler of the ascendant combust or unfortunate in the 12th.

Although the turned chart does have some of these testimonies, what bothers me is that mathematically they seemed biased toward providing a "yes" answer.

At your high latitude, quadrant house cusps tend to get very distorted. We can see that the 11th (turned first) house covers a huge amount of territory: about 70 degrees in total. The 6th house seems to include 55 degrees. That's 125 degrees total, or one third of the chart. If we add to that the (turned) 12th house (radix 10th) that's another 20 degrees, and the (turned) 8th house puts us back in the radix 6th house (55 degrees) for a grand total of 200 degrees, or significantly over half the chart.

The chance of the 5th and 12th house having the same ruler could easily occur with Aquarius rising and Capricorn on the 12th, or a duplicate sign on the cusp of the 1st and 12th. Let's assume some probability on the ruler of the ascendant combust or in the 12th house, which would increase the odds of a "yes" answer. (Please check my arithmetic.)

I don't know what are the verified instances of black magic in Finland in recent years, but I would guess they're low-to-none.

So while I don't think the chart can be transparently read to reveal witchcraft or its absence, one of my main instructors in horary said that the chart should give a good picture of the situation at hand. I think it does show how concerned you are, and perhaps ready to entertain a magical non-medical explanation.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #8  
Unread 01-15-2016, 08:40 PM
Kitchy Kitchy is offline
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

"I don't know what are the verified instances of black magic in Finland in recent years, but I would guess they're low-to-none."

Haiti maybe - Latin America maybe - Africa maybe - Finland not so much

Is it wrong to chuckle at this. If so, I apologize to OP but applaud Waybread subtlety.

This post is a case of enablement of the unlikely occurance - or deep rooted mental paranoia shared with others by proxy.

But at same time - when a person feels that someone's out to get them, it doesn't always mean they're wrong.
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  #9  
Unread 01-15-2016, 09:08 PM
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

Kitchy, I agree with the old saying that, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you." I could easily imagine a situation where both a negative person and his "victim" believe that black magic is real; and where the "victim's" fear is so great that she does experience physical symptoms. But there's no actual black magic at work here, just modern psychology.

And if this were the case, we might expect physical symptoms like tension headaches, digestive upsets, or inability to eat; not a stroke in a 30-year old.

I just re-read the OP, and it is interesting how the 12th house rules both bewitchment and secret enemies. Stagolee wrote: "She is afraid that powerful persons are going to take her out because she knows too much about their dealings."

It's not clear who these people are, but it sounds like secret enemies or criminals, which are also 12th house matters. But becoming a victim of a drug ring (???) or organized crime happens for straightforward if unpleasant reasons. It doesn't mean they are able to practice black magic.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #10  
Unread 01-15-2016, 09:14 PM
Kitchy Kitchy is offline
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Kitchy, I agree with the old saying that, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you." I could easily imagine a situation where both a negative person and his "victim" believe that black magic is real; and where the "victim's" fear is so great that she does experience physical symptoms. But there's no actual black magic at work here, just modern psychology.

And if this were the case, we might expect physical symptoms like tension headaches, digestive upsets, or inability to eat; not a stroke in a 30-year old.

I just re-read the OP, and it is interesting how the 12th house rules both bewitchment and secret enemies. Stagolee wrote: "She is afraid that powerful persons are going to take her out because she knows too much about their dealings."

It's not clear who these people are, but it sounds like secret enemies or criminals, which are also 12th house matters. But becoming a victim of a drug ring (???) or organized crime happens for straightforward if unpleasant reasons. It doesn't mean they are able to practice black magic.
not to be flippant, because i'm in respect of your original notion - but look at sean penn right now -

el chapo or Finnish voodoo

that's the 12th house of someone who is about to get a can of whoop@ss for his folly into the swamp of the 12th.

12th house wants forgiveness - absolution for delving into the gutter of the unknown - it IS NEVER INNOCENT. It's all about a poker hand in the end - when saturn calls the 12th house bluff of Neptune.

The best is not engage in this nonsense first of all and secondly - not to drag others into it.

Secrets of Neptune/Jupiter 12th is either the willingness to surrender to bad or to believe it can't be that bad.

Saturn and Uranus and Pluto figure prominently in this - above all else.

Last edited by Kitchy; 01-15-2016 at 09:25 PM.
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  #11  
Unread 01-15-2016, 09:24 PM
Stagolee Stagolee is offline
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitchy View Post
"I don't know what are the verified instances of black magic in Finland in recent years, but I would guess they're low-to-none."

Haiti maybe - Latin America maybe - Africa maybe - Finland not so much

Is it wrong to chuckle at this. If so, I apologize to OP but applaud Waybread subtlety.
Yeah I know this might be a case to snicker about...Mostly here in Finland we believe in Santa (who really is finnish) & his little helpers and find anything else apart from that pagan.

So the outcome is that yes, my friends life and fragile health are in danger if she keeps on believing in what she does, it will keep harming her health.
I talked with my friend on the phone and shared the views of waybread with my own. Iエm hoping we are getting there slowly.

waybreads remarks on high latitudes effects on housecusps were very interesting, thank you for that

And with these "powerful people" I mean several people from shamanistic circles from Finland and magicians from abroad with whom my friend has made acquaintance with lately.
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  #12  
Unread 01-15-2016, 09:30 PM
Kitchy Kitchy is offline
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

Staggolee-

Do you who Staggerlee is in America?

Let's assume you do and now what?

Maybe this is a cultural issue above astrology?

The story of a guy who was running with the devil and playing cards thinking he had a winning hand but had to pay the debt of his folly for another.

Is that where you're going with this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCPutYaGFlE

Last edited by Kitchy; 01-15-2016 at 09:34 PM.
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  #13  
Unread 01-15-2016, 09:37 PM
Stagolee Stagolee is offline
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

Great, but this is my version!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8S-Pu6T0Q0

Itエs got the blues and blues is my name! Heエs a bad man oh cruel Sta...however you wish to spell it. Except Iエm a woman.
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  #14  
Unread 01-15-2016, 09:41 PM
Stagolee Stagolee is offline
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitchy View Post
Staggolee-

The story of a guy who was running with the devil and playing cards thinking he had a winning hand but had to pay the debt of his folly for another.

Is that where you're going with this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCPutYaGFlE
Well yeah I intented to fight fire with fire WITH my friend, with this horary chart. Donエt know for whom I must pay my debt now..
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  #15  
Unread 01-15-2016, 09:42 PM
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

When involved in a bad situation - best to walk away from it - not to get further entrenched.

Gangsta stuff, as we say here in USA - paying the piper - etc.

Your friend willingly got into something too deep - you come to the rescue - and in the end - who'll do the time for the crime?

Don't let this be you.
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  #16  
Unread 01-15-2016, 09:59 PM
Stagolee Stagolee is offline
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

Ok, thank you Kitchy for your kind words. I must help her, will keep myself grounded while doing that.
Iエll post if there will be any twists or turns in the future relating to the horary.
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  #17  
Unread 01-15-2016, 11:30 PM
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

Staglolee, I realize that there are modern shamans and "magicians," and that astrologically they would belong to the 12th house-- but the reason I would respond to a black magic type of question is that really we are talking about the 12th as the house of hidden or secret enemies. While it is conceivable that one of these people might believe s/he could cast a bad spell on your friend, and that your friend would believe in its effectiveness, whether this could actually cause a stroke in your friend through the power of suggestion is highly debateable.

If this is the sort of bad stuff her "friends" are into, it would be a good reason to distance herself from them.

I personally believe in a universe with a divine creative consciousness that many religions call God. This God is far more powerful than any evil-minded people or spirits. If your friend is of a spiritual disposition, this would be a good time for her to focus on the beneficial power of the divine creative principle.

I just googled "Sami shamanism" (Sami=Lapps) and came up with this interesting article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_shamanism

You might look at your friend's natal chart and see what is going on with it lately.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #18  
Unread 01-09-2019, 04:47 PM
Stagolee Stagolee is offline
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

UPDATE

Sorry it took two year's. I always grimace when I see a chart with people providing help but The conclusion remains a mystery. Well now I did The same thing myself.

My friend is fine now but since the reading, she has been hospitalized many many times (mental hospital). That's why the 12th House was accentuated in the chart. She is now living her life with the help of appropriate meds. Thanks everybody!
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  #19  
Unread 01-09-2019, 05:17 PM
watcherofthesouth watcherofthesouth is offline
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

Thanks, Stagolee. Interesting reading. I've learned that 8 degrees in a natal chart indicates a black magic theme. Sometimes it can indicate by whom. People in Western cultures surely disregard it but in other cultures it is real and dangerous. I try to stay culture agnostic in these matters. If you could post her natal chart, that would be interesting.
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  #20  
Unread 01-13-2019, 01:00 AM
Almohsin Almohsin is offline
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Re: Is my friendエs life in danger?

There is no black magic but it is a mental illness.
The harmful mental energies were interpreted as magic, or harmful spirits .
Look at the planets and the Pisces and Chiron all this explains it

Last edited by Almohsin; 01-13-2019 at 01:07 AM.
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