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Unread 12-29-2012, 08:38 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Orbs and Stuff

On Orbs and Stuff

Morin notes (1st half of 17th century) that “...how great this orb is for the individual planets has hitherto remained uncertain among astrologers, on account of the unknown fundamental of that quantity; whence, some attribute a greater orb to a particular planet and others a lesser orb, although they do not seem to differ much in turn.

Morin then addresses the problem of establishing the semi-diameter of planetary orbs thus: The Sun, as is recognized even today by all astronomers, has a “semi-diameter of illumination” of 18°. Astronomical Twilight begins and ends when the Sun is 18° below the horizon; total darkness occurs only then. Morin then notes the Sun’s distance below the horizon when each of the planets becomes visible (or fades from visibility.) He gives 11°30’for Mars, 11° for Saturn, 10° for Jupiter and Mercury, and 5° for Venus. He then subtracts these values from 18° and so establishes the orb for each of the planets according to the strength of its brightness (at maximum.) Therefore the semi-diameters of the orbs of influence for each of the five planets is:

Venus, 13°; Jupiter and Mercury, 8°; for Saturn 7° and Mars, 6°30’.
The Moon is given 12°. The Sun, of course, receives 18°.
(Note that the sky in the times before the Industrial Revolution was crystalline, not dirty as it is today. Also note, Kepler had only recently published the meticulous naked-eye observations of Tycho Brahe and himself; these were available to Morin.)

According to this view the orbs of influence are variable, depending on whether a planet is elongated, at perigee or apogee. Assuming greatest elongation (actually, maximum brightness) and perigee, the smallest orb is between Mercury and Saturn, and is 6°45’. Major aspects between Venus and Jupiter are allowed an orb of 10°30’. These orbs are representative of those in use in the early modern period of astrology. Following this method to determine orb results in no orb at all for the modern trans-Saturnian planets.

The semi-diameters can be used to determine strength of aspect. Assume Moon at 15 Gemini, Mars at 5 Gemini. The combined semi-diameters add up to 18°30’; the half-sum is 9°15’. Mars is within the sphere of influence of the Moon (she is allowed 12°), but Moon is not within the sphere of Mars because 10° separate the two planets and he is only allowed 6°30’. This is therefore an incomplete platic conjunction. Had the Moon been within the orb of Mars, it would have been a complete platic conjunction, and a good deal stronger. A partile conjunction exists only when the two planets occupy the same degree, e.g., both are in 15 Gemini. Ptolemy and the Arabs considered that planets in conjunction or aspect were united or glued together when their orb of aspect was 1° or 3° -- the exact distance varies with the authority – but it can be said that any major aspect with an orb of 3° or less can be considered exact, that is, extremely powerful with the two planets acting in unison.

Suppose that instead of Gemini the conjunction took place in Aries, in the degrees given above. Would Moon, even with this incomplete platic conjunction, be under the direct influence of Mars? It is not while in Gemini. I answer yes. Planets rule signs; signs do not rule planets. The Moon in Aries is under the dominion of Mars and subject to his conditions and determination, regardless of his sign position. Therefore, if Mars is in Aries by body, his influence over this Moon is greatly increased, and in effect Mars’ orb of influence extends throughout the sign. Mars is in his domicile (his dominion, his kingdom) and reigns supreme. Moon is highly inflamed under such a circumstance. Naturally, the extent of Mars’ power here will vary according to actual strength of aspect and other conditions that allow us to gauge his influence, its strength and nature.

A comment on orbs. I personally use much wider and more flexible orbs than is common among today’s astrologers. By flexible I mean that I consider things other than the longitudinal distance between two planets in deciding if a wider-than-normal orb should be accepted.

As an example there is Luis Donaldo Colosio, the assassinated Mexican presidential candidate. (I use a chart for him with an earlier time of birth (2245) than the chart given in astrodatabank; I got his birth data from an excellent Mexican astrologer whose practice deals largely with ranking politicians in that country.) Mars, who rules the horoscope, is stationary at birth and separating [actually, because Mars is on his retrograde station, the aspect should be considered as in mutual application -- but if you just look at the chart itself without consulting the ephemeris you might miss this important fact] from a square, with 10-degree orb, with Uranus. Uranus is quite prominent and powerful in the chart because he rules the Sun and is singleton in the West and is the cutting planet of a Locomotive pattern (exceptionally powerful in this chart. I take Uranus as lord of Aquarius because of this exceptional power in the chart, which is not granted to Saturn. What happens to Uranus affects Sun, the Vitality.) When I first looked at his chart I discounted this square as too wide to be important, and separating. However, the day following birth Mars turns retrograde and right around the 44th day following birth perfects the square to Uranus by secondary progression, in the Eighth. Colosio was assassinated at the age of 44; the events that led to his assassination happened somewhat earlier. This experience (a high-ranking Mexican politician had asked me about Colosio before he was assassinated – his removal from the political scene was at least conjectured in the Palacio Nacional, and was brought about by the rebellion in Chiapas.) was one among several that led me to begin examining wide aspects more closely, ultimately resulting in my present method. [My “earlier” chart places Mars right on the 12th Placidus cusp, Pluto in the Tenth (with the partile opposition to Jupiter) and Uranus in the Eighth. All of these are assassination aspects/positions.]

Mars is lord of the horoscope (and posited in 12th, also on the South Node); Uranus is in 8th and powerful by being solitaire...so both planets are empowered, emphasized in this chart. And the retrogradation with perfection by progression pulls this wide separating square into effect. Mars is in exile, and Uranus is in the fall of Mars. I nowadays look at these kinds of things in evaluating the strength of an aspect; I do not rely on orb alone, nor do I fix rigid limits for orbs.

I offer this as my experience only. I really don’t care if you like tight rigid orbs, or wide and flexible ones. No argument is needed. I can give many instances where very wide-orbed aspects have proven to be the principal indicator of life-forming events, and recognizing this fact was what led me to adopt my present view of orbs.

Regardless of the orbs you choose to employ in your practice of astrology, whether you use tight and rigid orbs or wide and flexible ones, these same sorts of considerations will affect any conjunction or aspect. Besides the orb, there is also the hospitality of the sign, the condition or state of its lord, whether the aspect separates or applies, retrogradation considered both temporally and spatially, the latitudinal proximity of the aspecting planets, whether the aspecting planets are natural friends or enemies, and of course the house(s) occupied. Is one of the planets more emphasized or favored than the other and therefore likely to predominate in the relationship? Is the aspect the one in the chart that has the closest orb, or is it far down the list? What sort of formations or complexes does the aspect participate in? What other things are notable about one or both planets?

The magic of astrology takes place in the mind of the astrologer. If we consider the horoscope to be a “charting of the psyche [character, nature, spiritual quality] of the native” rather than an “astrological chart”, and therefore view the chart as descriptive of the person rather than as an accumulation of astrological symbols and formulas, it may be that our insights will blossom – will be infused with life.

Not all conjunctions of Moon and Mars are the same, and this applies to all aspects between any two planets. The orb of the aspect is certainly a very important consideration, but it is not the only thing to be put into the balance when weighing the power and assessing the mode of action of an aspect. Each of the various factors exercises an influence on both power and mode of action in any aspectual relationship. That is, each and every modifying or conditioning factor affecting our conjunction of Moon and Mars describes it in ever more refined detail.

The sign or signs involved are of first importance because they are essential in nature. A planet does not change its own essential nature, but that nature – the way and degree in which it can act – is deeply affected by sign. A young man who is by nature a bookworm will not function nearly so well in a foundry as he might in a library. In either circumstance his essentially studious and quiet nature will characterize him, but his environment will strongly influence his ability to act according to his nature, to feel at ease and be effective or not.

In any evaluation of sign position it is imperative to understand the state and determinations of the lord of the sign. In the example with Moon and Mars in Gemini, the conditioning of Mercury determines whether Gemini and the planets in it will be favored or disadvantaged. Planets rule signs. It is not so much the sign itself which determines the behavior of a planet in it as the condition of the lord of the sign.

Because the condition of the lord of a sign is different in each horoscope, it is clear that not all conjunctions of Moon and Mars, even in the same sign and with the same orb, etc., are the same. If we are interested in an astrology that provides depth of insight, it is necessary to examine the chart – the planets are the active and dynamic factor – in depth. Astrology is as superficial or as profound as our approach to it.


Last edited by greybeard; 12-29-2012 at 09:06 AM.
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  #2  
Unread 12-29-2012, 09:28 AM
gen6k gen6k is offline
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

some sets of orbs

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=57856


after contemplating the perfuse talismanic substance of astrological points they seem to be of relational processes and might have some underlying incrementation. theres focus on "length" and "visibility", but they can become certain other ranges as well.


transit orbs
are like 5 (precognitive), 4 (shadow), 3.5 (forming), 3 (event start), 2 (dilemna zone), 1 (crisis), 0 (tipping point)

usually the 1 to 0 orb make up the main situation, but other types of background events and psychcology make up the development.

progression orbs are similar 1 or 2 degree points, but can also be calculated above for general situation instead of turn of events.


this is why i talked about the concept of "relativistic astrology"
the going away and moving to points do hit a particular center. a planet going in to another one, but there is also a non-center since theres no middle point in the horoscope.

this effect is similar to the dimensions of the intricacies of people's style and world view. when creating something there is a certain amount of space away from any stabalized "cultural ontic" it is also a "private primordial psychical" energy.

instead of a wider orb becoming weaker the lens of plantetary connection becomes perhaps a more idiosyncratic dynamic in the shape of the connection between them. the planets are still connected, but they are engaging at an altered pace where the view can open a window in to the inner workings of spatial causes, mind-spatial-structures, metacognitive locations, psych-existential connexion points, etc.

i give the example of a gemini jupiter, jupiter in detriment, apart from gemini mercury by 7 degrees being able to actually see the overarching synthesis with no sagittarius placements. in traditional terms the orb is considered weak.

this happens through covalent points such as quasi-sagittarius positions.
alternate detail to whole positions either harmonically or epicurean reality.

the problem here is that it becomes divergent from the historical situation and is taken as if the missing gap opens up the possibility to see distance in relational structures, proportion, mirroring with spatiotemporal encasement, one individual structure connected up to a bigger structure, alluding-parallel. for example a non-synthesis is also true, a non sagittarius sagittarius.

the distance is special since certain developments happen from one degree to another, from a sign to another, and it is impossible to reconcile the world view and not necessarily its production.

at times its not a matter of distance its simply not non-artist or artist it can be that another approach is necessary to turn "visibility" to other facilitations.

the chart also becomes a particular extraneous energy that is similar to non-similarities producing the needed amalgamation.

Last edited by gen6k; 12-29-2012 at 10:18 AM.
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Unread 12-29-2012, 10:53 AM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Regardless of the orbs you choose to employ in your practice of astrology, whether you use tight and rigid orbs or wide and flexible ones, these same sorts of considerations will affect any conjunction or aspect. Besides the orb, there is also the hospitality of the sign, the condition or state of its lord, whether the aspect separates or applies, retrogradation considered both temporally and spatially, the latitudinal proximity of the aspecting planets, whether the aspecting planets are natural friends or enemies, and of course the house(s) occupied. Is one of the planets more emphasized or favored than the other and therefore likely to predominate in the relationship? Is the aspect the one in the chart that has the closest orb, or is it far down the list? What sort of formations or complexes does the aspect participate in? What other things are notable about one or both planets?


these are good questions. sometimes the question of dominance is style of dominance or irredicble dominance. for example predominance versus dominance. cardinality versus fixed fire.

unbounded domination or bounded within certain cases up to intrinsic relational capacity. its really about checking this range.

passive agressive domination or mutable domination. except that some domination is not violent and others are necessary violences as well as imperceptible violences
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Unread 12-29-2012, 11:07 AM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

I don't understand a thing you're saying.

Just to clarify, "dominance" as I am using the word here, does not refer to sadomasochistic or bondage/dominance relationships. It refers to dominance of one planet over another according to the tried and true tenets of horoscopic art.

Last edited by greybeard; 12-29-2012 at 11:16 AM.
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Unread 12-29-2012, 12:12 PM
gen6k gen6k is offline
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

but the dominance function is part of the meaning of signs as well. that would be a more scorpionic or marsian dominance. except that this would be talking about dominance without relation to actions basically abstract dominance.

if you want to try to delineate a chart with 150% orbs
or even 30 degree orbs which is one sign
it might say something about hidden attributes
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Unread 12-29-2012, 12:54 PM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
On Orbs and Stuff....Morin notes (1st half of 17th century) that...how great this orb is for the individual planets has hitherto remained uncertain among astrologers, on account of the unknown fundamental of that quantity; whence, some attribute a greater orb to a particular planet and others a lesser orb, although they do not seem to differ much in turn.”....
Morin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Ba...thematician%29 was primarily a mathematician who firmly believed that planet Earth is fixed in space – consequently Morin believed that the Sun orbits Earth and strongly opposed the ideas of Galileo. Today we know Morin was wrong and Galileo was correct

Clearly, over the course of a couple of thousand years, the original concept of Orbs has morphed.

Ancient Hellenistic astrologers worked with:

(a) 3º orbs


(b) aspects by sign.

An example of an aspect by sign, is that of any planet at 0º of any sign being in trine aspect with another planet at 29º of any sign that is of the same Element. The Elements are Earth, Water, Fire, Air. Therefore for example all Water Signs are trine by sign.

Another example of an aspect by sign is that any planet at 0º of any sign is in opposition aspect with another planet at 29º of any sign that is directly opposing that sign

The increasing numbers of those who practice Hellenistic astrology today also work with (a) 3º orbs and (b) aspects by sign
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Unread 12-29-2012, 01:37 PM
gen6k gen6k is offline
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

heres the themes that jump out at me:

50% orbs - potent and reoccuring attributes. not necessarily all angles of the situation, but a spinal initiation.

100% orbs - the normal modern chart orbs. sets the place of reoccuring strings in to a picture setting.

its necessarily not all of the possibilities of the energy pathways.

150% orbs - the bigger picture starts to make more sense, but the new positions could also be less relevant. it becomes paradoxically less frequent modes of being, but also is able to make more and larger connections to the energies that could be in tune with a shift in perspective of activities.

the lens becomes wider and moves to the side in order to see the program of the chart.

30 degree orbs - these are the connections from every planet to every planet and represent the full range of capabilities that the person has. their energy flows, but this energy is similar to quantum mechanics with divergent paths. it could represent for example being a business person, but enjoying some fine art painting at a random gallery.

with this its possible to see general trends of the chart in the scope of multifaceted becoming.
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Unread 12-30-2012, 05:04 AM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by gen6k View Post
heres the themes that jump out at me:

50% orbs - potent and reoccuring attributes. not necessarily all angles of the situation, but a spinal initiation.

100% orbs - the normal modern chart orbs. sets the place of reoccuring strings in to a picture setting.

its necessarily not all of the possibilities of the energy pathways.

150% orbs - the bigger picture starts to make more sense, but the new positions could also be less relevant. it becomes paradoxically less frequent modes of being, but also is able to make more and larger connections to the energies that could be in tune with a shift in perspective of activities.

the lens becomes wider and moves to the side in order to see the program of the chart.

30 degree orbs - these are the connections from every planet to every planet and represent the full range of capabilities that the person has. their energy flows, but this energy is similar to quantum mechanics with divergent paths. it could represent for example being a business person, but enjoying some fine art painting at a random gallery.

with this its possible to see general trends of the chart in the scope of multifaceted becoming.

Some good insights! Thanks!
Also thanks to Greybeard for an excellent post!
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Unread 01-14-2013, 04:23 AM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
On Orbs and Stuff

Morin notes (1st half of 17th century) that “...how great this orb is for the individual planets has hitherto remained uncertain among astrologers, on account of the unknown fundamental of that quantity; whence, some attribute a greater orb to a particular planet and others a lesser orb, although they do not seem to differ much in turn.

Morin then addresses the problem of establishing the semi-diameter of planetary orbs thus: The Sun, as is recognized even today by all astronomers, has a “semi-diameter of illumination” of 18°. Astronomical Twilight begins and ends when the Sun is 18° below the horizon; total darkness occurs only then. Morin then notes the Sun’s distance below the horizon when each of the planets becomes visible (or fades from visibility.) He gives 11°30’for Mars, 11° for Saturn, 10° for Jupiter and Mercury, and 5° for Venus. He then subtracts these values from 18° and so establishes the orb for each of the planets according to the strength of its brightness (at maximum.) Therefore the semi-diameters of the orbs of influence for each of the five planets is:

Venus, 13°; Jupiter and Mercury, 8°; for Saturn 7° and Mars, 6°30’.
The Moon is given 12°. The Sun, of course, receives 18°.
(Note that the sky in the times before the Industrial Revolution was crystalline, not dirty as it is today. Also note, Kepler had only recently published the meticulous naked-eye observations of Tycho Brahe and himself; these were available to Morin.)

According to this view the orbs of influence are variable, depending on whether a planet is elongated, at perigee or apogee. Assuming greatest elongation (actually, maximum brightness) and perigee, the smallest orb is between Mercury and Saturn, and is 6°45’. Major aspects between Venus and Jupiter are allowed an orb of 10°30’. These orbs are representative of those in use in the early modern period of astrology. Following this method to determine orb results in no orb at all for the modern trans-Saturnian planets.

The semi-diameters can be used to determine strength of aspect. Assume Moon at 15 Gemini, Mars at 5 Gemini. The combined semi-diameters add up to 18°30’; the half-sum is 9°15’. Mars is within the sphere of influence of the Moon (she is allowed 12°), but Moon is not within the sphere of Mars because 10° separate the two planets and he is only allowed 6°30’. This is therefore an incomplete platic conjunction. Had the Moon been within the orb of Mars, it would have been a complete platic conjunction, and a good deal stronger. A partile conjunction exists only when the two planets occupy the same degree, e.g., both are in 15 Gemini. Ptolemy and the Arabs considered that planets in conjunction or aspect were united or glued together when their orb of aspect was 1° or 3° -- the exact distance varies with the authority – but it can be said that any major aspect with an orb of 3° or less can be considered exact, that is, extremely powerful with the two planets acting in unison.

Suppose that instead of Gemini the conjunction took place in Aries, in the degrees given above. Would Moon, even with this incomplete platic conjunction, be under the direct influence of Mars? It is not while in Gemini. I answer yes. Planets rule signs; signs do not rule planets. The Moon in Aries is under the dominion of Mars and subject to his conditions and determination, regardless of his sign position. Therefore, if Mars is in Aries by body, his influence over this Moon is greatly increased, and in effect Mars’ orb of influence extends throughout the sign. Mars is in his domicile (his dominion, his kingdom) and reigns supreme. Moon is highly inflamed under such a circumstance. Naturally, the extent of Mars’ power here will vary according to actual strength of aspect and other conditions that allow us to gauge his influence, its strength and nature.

A comment on orbs. I personally use much wider and more flexible orbs than is common among today’s astrologers. By flexible I mean that I consider things other than the longitudinal distance between two planets in deciding if a wider-than-normal orb should be accepted.

As an example there is Luis Donaldo Colosio, the assassinated Mexican presidential candidate. (I use a chart for him with an earlier time of birth (2245) than the chart given in astrodatabank; I got his birth data from an excellent Mexican astrologer whose practice deals largely with ranking politicians in that country.) Mars, who rules the horoscope, is stationary at birth and separating [actually, because Mars is on his retrograde station, the aspect should be considered as in mutual application -- but if you just look at the chart itself without consulting the ephemeris you might miss this important fact] from a square, with 10-degree orb, with Uranus. Uranus is quite prominent and powerful in the chart because he rules the Sun and is singleton in the West and is the cutting planet of a Locomotive pattern (exceptionally powerful in this chart. I take Uranus as lord of Aquarius because of this exceptional power in the chart, which is not granted to Saturn. What happens to Uranus affects Sun, the Vitality.) When I first looked at his chart I discounted this square as too wide to be important, and separating. However, the day following birth Mars turns retrograde and right around the 44th day following birth perfects the square to Uranus by secondary progression, in the Eighth. Colosio was assassinated at the age of 44; the events that led to his assassination happened somewhat earlier. This experience (a high-ranking Mexican politician had asked me about Colosio before he was assassinated – his removal from the political scene was at least conjectured in the Palacio Nacional, and was brought about by the rebellion in Chiapas.) was one among several that led me to begin examining wide aspects more closely, ultimately resulting in my present method. [My “earlier” chart places Mars right on the 12th Placidus cusp, Pluto in the Tenth (with the partile opposition to Jupiter) and Uranus in the Eighth. All of these are assassination aspects/positions.]

Mars is lord of the horoscope (and posited in 12th, also on the South Node); Uranus is in 8th and powerful by being solitaire...so both planets are empowered, emphasized in this chart. And the retrogradation with perfection by progression pulls this wide separating square into effect. Mars is in exile, and Uranus is in the fall of Mars. I nowadays look at these kinds of things in evaluating the strength of an aspect; I do not rely on orb alone, nor do I fix rigid limits for orbs.

I offer this as my experience only. I really don’t care if you like tight rigid orbs, or wide and flexible ones. No argument is needed. I can give many instances where very wide-orbed aspects have proven to be the principal indicator of life-forming events, and recognizing this fact was what led me to adopt my present view of orbs.

Regardless of the orbs you choose to employ in your practice of astrology, whether you use tight and rigid orbs or wide and flexible ones, these same sorts of considerations will affect any conjunction or aspect. Besides the orb, there is also the hospitality of the sign, the condition or state of its lord, whether the aspect separates or applies, retrogradation considered both temporally and spatially, the latitudinal proximity of the aspecting planets, whether the aspecting planets are natural friends or enemies, and of course the house(s) occupied. Is one of the planets more emphasized or favored than the other and therefore likely to predominate in the relationship? Is the aspect the one in the chart that has the closest orb, or is it far down the list? What sort of formations or complexes does the aspect participate in? What other things are notable about one or both planets?

The magic of astrology takes place in the mind of the astrologer. If we consider the horoscope to be a “charting of the psyche [character, nature, spiritual quality] of the native” rather than an “astrological chart”, and therefore view the chart as descriptive of the person rather than as an accumulation of astrological symbols and formulas, it may be that our insights will blossom – will be infused with life.

Not all conjunctions of Moon and Mars are the same, and this applies to all aspects between any two planets. The orb of the aspect is certainly a very important consideration, but it is not the only thing to be put into the balance when weighing the power and assessing the mode of action of an aspect. Each of the various factors exercises an influence on both power and mode of action in any aspectual relationship. That is, each and every modifying or conditioning factor affecting our conjunction of Moon and Mars describes it in ever more refined detail.

The sign or signs involved are of first importance because they are essential in nature. A planet does not change its own essential nature, but that nature – the way and degree in which it can act – is deeply affected by sign. A young man who is by nature a bookworm will not function nearly so well in a foundry as he might in a library. In either circumstance his essentially studious and quiet nature will characterize him, but his environment will strongly influence his ability to act according to his nature, to feel at ease and be effective or not.

In any evaluation of sign position it is imperative to understand the state and determinations of the lord of the sign. In the example with Moon and Mars in Gemini, the conditioning of Mercury determines whether Gemini and the planets in it will be favored or disadvantaged. Planets rule signs. It is not so much the sign itself which determines the behavior of a planet in it as the condition of the lord of the sign.

Because the condition of the lord of a sign is different in each horoscope, it is clear that not all conjunctions of Moon and Mars, even in the same sign and with the same orb, etc., are the same. If we are interested in an astrology that provides depth of insight, it is necessary to examine the chart – the planets are the active and dynamic factor – in depth. Astrology is as superficial or as profound as our approach to it.
No orb should ever be wider than 8 degrees and only that for the sun and moon. all other planets I dont use more than 6 degrees even for major aspects. I dont use asteroids, minor aspects or fixed stars.
Keep it simple I say. If you have a superficial approach to astrology then it wont be accurate. Even twins have discrepancies and every chart should be taken on its own merits. We also have to look at the environment the person lives in, the background etc.
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Unread 01-14-2013, 06:42 AM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

When it's all boiled down, orbs are a question for each astrologer to answer.

I begin examining a chart using 10 degree orbs for everything except Sun and Moon. I give the very old orb of 17 degrees to the Sun (although by the time I am actually interpreting, that orb is usually pared down considerably) and for the Moon her daily motion on the day of birth (that is, her reach during the first year after birth, by progression. The "year" is obviously arbitrary, but it does have a good psychological grounding, as the events of the first year of life "are forever.")

Many modern astrologers call for the use of tighter orbs. All well and good. I call for orbs with demonstrated efficacy. I have seen many aspects of ridiculously wide orb act very efficaciously in a life. And so, I don't ignore them.

Neither do I use asteroids or fixed stars. I have found that some of the so-called minor aspects are not necessarily so minor. My own chart serves as example. Moon is Lady of the Horoscope. She beholds no applying major aspect. But she does behold two partile and applying minor aspects (both of which mature by progression within three weeks of birth, simultaneously.) In fact, because of her position as lord of the horoscope, these two aspects are preeminent descriptors of my life course and personality. With hindsight as my perspective, I understand that it is these two aspects that best define the mother-son relationship, and its effects on the future of the native. And that, by the way, is one of the great advantages in using tight orbs; they pinpoint early experiences which are the deepest and most powerful in our formative years.

I think if we take the attitude that planetary influences do not have rigid boundaries, but fade with distance, we will be on the right track. It is then up to the individual astrologer to establish the orbs he or she will use. Tighter orbs "reduce the static." They cull out the usually weaker and less significant aspects and let us focus on the main thrust of the horoscope by simplification: ditto the minor aspects.

We might keep in mind that astrology is a science insofar as it relies on precise astronomical measurement for its fundamental data. But once we begin applying the rules, traditonal methods, and our own opinions to the mix, it becomes art -- not science. Further, astrology is a system of thought wholly devised by man's symbolic mind. It is based on the appearance of the sky at the moment of birth, and appearances can be deceiving (e.g., retrogradation.) All of life and its experiences is subjective; there is no way around the ultimately subjective nature of our existence. Astrology, being a creature of man's mind, must always contain a highly subjective character. After all, what the astrologer offers the client is a judgment. But then, of course, its subject matter is man's mind and that is a very subjective part of the universe. Subjectivity, within proper limits, is a necessary part of the astrological process, provided that the constant reference is the measured sky.

The fundamental test for astrology and its various methods is to be found in results. If Mary's methods consistently and reliably produce more accurate and more significant results than my methods, then Mary's methods are demonstrably superior. Unless our methods have been subjected to some sort of similar testing, our view of orbs or any other astrological methodology remains conjecture and theory.

Last edited by greybeard; 01-14-2013 at 06:50 AM.
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Unread 01-14-2013, 07:48 AM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

#1. Every aspect has its own orb. If someone said to use 8 degree orb between Mars and Saturn, that is not for every aspect - conjunction, opposition, square, trine, sextile, and several other minor aspects.
#2. Orb depends on planet's direction also.
#3. Orb depends on location of planet: cardinal, succedent, cadent
#4. Orb depends on strength of planet: chart ruler, exalted, debilitated, detrimenta, etc.

There are several factors. There is no generic rule and many astrologers decide planets within orb or out of orb by looking at chart.

Cheers
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Unread 01-14-2013, 08:11 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

Very good points Dhundhun....as always.
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Unread 01-14-2013, 01:22 PM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhundhun View Post
#1. Every aspect has its own orb. If someone said to use 8 degree orb between Mars and Saturn, that is not for every aspect - conjunction, opposition, square, trine, sextile, and several other minor aspects.
#2. Orb depends on planet's direction also.
#3. Orb depends on location of planet: cardinal, succedent, cadent
#4. Orb depends on strength of planet: chart ruler, exalted, debilitated, detrimenta, etc.

There are several factors. There is no generic rule and many astrologers decide planets within orb or out of orb by looking at chart.

Cheers
Exactly as ancient Hellenistic astrologers assessed a natal chart - on an individual chart by chart basis
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Unread 01-16-2013, 04:44 AM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

I hear this time and time again: "The condition of the ruler of the sign is the major determining factor if their influence is to reach the native". It is imperative to note that along the range in the galaxy it takes 26, 920 earth years for the tilt of the Earth to come back in full circle to the angle of view of the ancient astrologers. No one is considering the tilt of the Earth and gratitude when discerning orbs and there progressions.
The Chinese consider this gradient in their " Lo-Shu" number grid. The sign of Sigil. Where are we in the universe at a particular point in time? What if the ancient astrologers took their readings when the Earth was not at a 23 degree tilt?
We have to consider where the galaxy we are as well? These may also be important factors that indicate how the quality of light is arranged as the spirit enters the soul at birth of the natal chart.
The ruling factor must be denuded to incorporate the years of receding angles to the constellations.
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Unread 01-16-2013, 04:55 AM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

What?

1. The time required for a cycle of precession is indeterminate. There are several factors at play, and they are not fully understood yet. 26,920 or whatever is an approximation.
2. At any point in time we are at the center of the universe.
3. The tilt of the Earth does change. And?
4. You are making an assumption that astrology works based on rays of light entering the soul. Check your premises.
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Unread 03-21-2013, 06:23 PM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

You all have made my usual point ...that it's a case by case basis. Orbs are not set in stone (except the inconjunct....which never can be more than 3 degrees...and ideally 2-2 1/2).

I've seen the Sun and Moon active in squares at 10 and 12 degrees or more if another planet extends the aspect by it's connection.

A conjunction to an angle is "usually" active at about 5 degrees on the cadent side and 8 degrees on the angular side...but not always. It depends upon the planet and other aspects involved.

In "general" I use what Astro.com uses in their charts. Sometimes I'll put in 105% if there's a lack of aspects....but I usually just use my own judgment according to the chart as a whole.
And once a student does enough research (readings) he/she can get an idea of how powerful any particular planet is in its orb.

I will say this: it's not guessing. If something is meant to be difficult or easy, you will have more than one example of it in a chart. If a square is a core issue, there will be other squares or oppositions or inconjuncts, etc, to that area. If trines, you'll see sextiles and good house positions, etc.
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Unread 03-22-2013, 05:26 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

On the astro.com chart maker I put in 50% in their "orb factor" box. This gives few, yet quite close, apsects; however, since I make extensive use of Parallels of declination (sometimes also of latitude), and Pauline dodekatemorion, I find I wind up with quite a bit to consider regarding chart factor interactions.
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Unread 03-26-2013, 01:08 AM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

The question of orbs is a vexed one that astrologers debate all the time.
However I use only 6 degrees for the major aspects unless the sun and moon are involved and I may go to 8 degrees. I dont vary it according to the planets otherwise. In the end you use what works for you and only when you are experienced can you discern that. If I use Chiron at all it is a tight orb of maybe 3 degrees, same with North Node and using the inconjunct aspect also.
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Unread 03-26-2013, 03:57 AM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

In some specialty applications (such as in my experiments with the 4/9 Name model in sports prediction, and in my use of the Lot of Substance in experiments with stock and futures price predictions) I use a fixed orb (of 5 degrees) for all aspects (including semi-sextile and quincunx), and for conjunctions, which (at least in these special applications) seem to work pretty well (so far)...
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Unread 03-26-2013, 04:04 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

OK, Dr Farr....Let me get this straight:

You drive up to Las Vegas, bet a small bundle on the winning team, take your winnings home (after enjoying all the High-Roller comps,)
Then call your broker and make a killing in pork bellies?
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Unread 03-26-2013, 04:10 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

Well, not quite yet!!
The 4/9 Name sports model is nearing "completion" of its testing phase (currently 943 test games, maintaining a +18% return rate, ie 59% correct, 41% incorrect ratio); I still have some ways to go in testing of the "Lot of Substance" method for stock and futures price predictions.
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Unread 03-26-2013, 04:32 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

3:2 odds in your favor? That dog will hunt.
Stay out of pork bellies. Check out Lithium mining. Long-term future demand is likely to increase dramatically and geological sources are very limited.

I can see a sound rationale behind a fixed 5 degree orb in charts of speculative nature (dealing primarily with "objective" trends/events (mundane).

I am always impressed by your investigative-experimentative nature: astrology based on measurable results.
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Unread 04-17-2013, 09:16 PM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

I haven't read every post. The following might have been covered.

Often, a person will notice that a heavy planet will be aspecting one or more natal planets. When is the aspect active? We can give our opinion as to this....but my experience tells me that unless the transit passes WITHOUT the transitting planet retrograding, the aspect is active the entire time ..... from the time the transitting planet is within orb range (9,8,7....whatever degrees) until the LAST TIME it leaves the aspect ....and that means leaves ALL planets it aspects within that time frame.

However, once it leaves the aspect of the last planet in any grouping, it is DONE. I've found there is no real orb separating.

WARNING: and this I've seen unfortunately, many times... a planet...let's say, SATURN has aspected one or more conjunct planets ... or an opposition... and is done...BUT...ANOTHER PLANET is on it's way....THAT planet will mightily affects the person and the issues created by the Saturn transit. If it's another outer planet, that ISSUE is not over. And if it's Neptune or Pluto, this type of "combination" can take up several years of a person's time and energy. AND it can be coming from another quadrant, and might have just impacted a whole other part of the life.

That is why trying to generalize in any way is so fruitless. We should be working with an example (a chart.)
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  #24  
Unread 04-17-2013, 09:38 PM
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lin View Post
...That is why trying to generalize in any way is so fruitless. We should be working with an example (a chart.)LIN
Whilst you have beautifully explained why, in your opinion, generalisation is useless, and working with a chart is more useful- this I concur with; however, generalisation is, in my opinion, quite necessary and useful, too. Generalisations are established only after studies of several examples, and collection of statistics/data/information that proves a (targeted) point. A chart, as yet another example, will make that point clearer and easier to understand. Just like your general point about one heavy-planet transit followed by another.

AQ7

PS: W/O generalisations, no rules or even theories can be put together.
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Unread 04-22-2013, 04:29 PM
Lin Lin is offline
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Re: Orbs and Stuff

My 'generalizations' come from my experience.
Since every astrologer has many different charts in their research, there will be many opinions. One of the above posts said it well:

#1. Every aspect has its own orb. If someone said to use 8 degree orb between Mars and Saturn, that is not for every aspect - conjunction, opposition, square, trine, sextile, and several other minor aspects.
#2. Orb depends on planet's direction also.
#3. Orb depends on location of planet: cardinal, succedent, cadent
#4. Orb depends on strength of planet: chart ruler, exalted, debilitated, detrimenta, etc.


HOWEVER: to go BEYOND this information, one must use a chart as one picture is worth a thousand words. I always assume on these forums that I am addressing people who are learning astrology and I hate to pass along misinformation or say something that a beginner may believe is absolute when it's conditional upon the REST of the chart.... which most delineation IS.

That is why when a beginning student asks a question about planetary position or aspect, if I decide I'd like to give a real answer, I ask for the chart to be shown, so that the information I give is useful for that person specifically.

Like a surgeon, an astrologer learns this science and art ONE person ...one chart... at a time. Eventually there is a body of research and then conclusions can be drawn and some generalities voiced.
But this of course is only my opinion, based on my practice and experience.
LIN
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