Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology > Aspects & configurations

Aspects & configurations Discuss here about natal chart aspects and configurations.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Unread 11-13-2017, 04:29 AM
applesandlilacs applesandlilacs is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: California
Posts: 111
Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

Casting a net for research.

What are your thoughts and experience of out-of-sign conjunctions?

Do you count them, can it turn an easy conjunction by planets into a hard conjunction by signs, does the importance depend on it being personal/personal, or personal/generational, generational/generational, or by houses.

Just putting some questions out there to get the juices flowing, you don't have answers these specific ones.

I thank you for any and all input.

Blessings,

Amber

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Unread 11-16-2017, 09:27 PM
applesandlilacs applesandlilacs is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: California
Posts: 111
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

I have a Sun(0°02'♍/11°27'N) Venus(29°34♌/12°53'N) out-of-sign conjunction. I think it being out of sign and at 0° and 29° changes the flavor of this conjunctions.

I don't know if it makes a difference, but my prenatal (annular solar) eclipse is at 29°02♌.

Last edited by applesandlilacs; 11-17-2017 at 11:41 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Unread 11-17-2017, 03:10 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: los angeles california
Posts: 12,474
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

I believe out of sign conjunctions work, ie, that they have an effect, especially so if the planets involved are in parallel of declination-when that happens whether the planets are in or out of sign makes no difference whatsoever.

HOWEVER, in adding up the essential+accidental dignities and detriments of planets in a given chart, I do NOT consider out of sign conjunctions for this particular calculation UNLESS the planets involved are within 1.5 degrees of parallel of declination.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to dr. farr For This Useful Post:
david starling (11-17-2017), KatyaVelikaya (11-17-2017), Ottobeuren (07-18-2019), tenacapcious (02-20-2019)
  #4  
Unread 11-26-2017, 11:40 PM
sibylline's Avatar
sibylline sibylline is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 2,233
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

My experience is that they work. I place less emphasis on the signs and the more on the nature of the conjunction itself, whether they're personal or generational.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sibylline For This Useful Post:
Ottobeuren (07-18-2019), tenacapcious (02-20-2019)
  #5  
Unread 11-27-2017, 06:13 AM
Wheez0r Wheez0r is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 11
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

If anyone has experience of these, please share. I'm interested in the subject too!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Unread 11-27-2017, 06:37 PM
applesandlilacs applesandlilacs is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: California
Posts: 111
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

I got interested in this because I have this with Sun/Venus, Sun/Jupiter, and Moon/Venus. Truth be told it would probably be considered an out-of-sign Stellium. (I'll attach my chart for reference)


I have read the descriptions about about the planets, and how they work together. Personally, I really don't see on an interpersonal level with Sun/Venus. I don't really have a "halo effect" on other people. I'm introverted, and can't take highly social events. It says that Sun Venus people need to be liked, I don't need that I do need people to be genuine and treat me with common courtesy. I do have a huge problem though since it literally in-singes me that I can't control how other people see me. It makes no logical sense because it's literally impossible, but it bugs me none the less; totally irrational. They say there's a dramatic quality to this specific conjunct, but I don't know if it's this or the fact that I have mercury in Leo conjunct midheaven, so take your pick on what makes me dramatic (externally).

This particular conjunction is
Sun at 0°♍/Venus at 29°♌.

Others:
Sun at 0°♍/Jupiter at 22°♌.
Moon at 11°♍/Venus at 29°♌.


Now, everything I read says that I'm supposed to be the hottest thing on two legs. That is not the case, I'm pretty but I'm not magazine pretty or movie pretty. My facial features tend to be large, especially my eyes. Again, other aspects in my chart effect this; I have Uranus in the first house in ♏, it also happens to conjunct my part of Fortune.

The one thing about these conjunctions that I definitely have is high spirituality, high seeking of knowledge, and the need for expansion. I tend to dream a "little" big. I'm a big picture thinker which is weird because half of my Stellium is in ♍. I find the ♌/♍ energy exchange helps me understand my ADHD a lot better.

I do have an effect on people I just don't know what it is, the more I understand about astrology the more I believe that these conjunctions are highly influenced by the fact that I have Chiron in the 7th house. I think it's almost an amplification process.

This seems like a good place to stop. I have a tendency to be information overload. If there is something specific I didn't mention that you want to know feel free to ask.

Last edited by applesandlilacs; 11-27-2017 at 06:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Unread 10-23-2018, 06:23 PM
NorthScale MC NorthScale MC is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Porto, Portugal
Posts: 10
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
I believe out of sign conjunctions work, ie, that they have an effect, especially so if the planets involved are in parallel of declination-when that happens whether the planets are in or out of sign makes no difference whatsoever.

HOWEVER, in adding up the essential+accidental dignities and detriments of planets in a given chart, I do NOT consider out of sign conjunctions for this particular calculation UNLESS the planets involved are within 1.5 degrees of parallel of declination.

Thank you Dr. Farr for sharing your vast knowledge with such clarity and objectivity.
This is a topic that interests me a lot since, using the Whole Sign Houses system, i have a very relevant out-of-sign conjunction: Mars at 28º 34 'of Gemini in the 6th whole sign in conjunction with Jupiter at 1º 29' of Cancer in the 7th whole sign, with Mars and Jupiter also forming a parallel of declination with a very tight orb (0° 23').

Therefore, in your view, would you consider important and relevant to also interpret the position of Mars in the 7th whole sign (and Jupiter in the 6th) or should I continue to interpret them exclusively/influencing only the houses/ signs where they are?

Grateful in advance,

PNS

Last edited by NorthScale MC; 10-23-2018 at 06:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Unread 10-26-2018, 06:04 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
You have a conjunction with an orb of 2*55'. I consider this an "exact" aspect, very close, powerful, important. The house boundary lies midway between the two planets. The conjunction perfects in Cancer, so that fact...that the "aspect" moves to perfection in Cancer where Jupiter is dignified and Mars is not guides your interpretation.

Mars is in Gemini, not in Cancer. He is "read" in Gemini. But at less than 1-1/2 degrees from the sign/house boundary, and drawn by conjunction with Jupiter, Mars clearly influences 7th house affairs. His essential character is Geminian; his accidental influence is primarily 7th house.

Last edited by greybeard; 10-26-2018 at 06:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Unread 10-29-2018, 01:51 PM
NorthScale MC NorthScale MC is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Porto, Portugal
Posts: 10
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
You have a conjunction with an orb of 2*55'. I consider this an "exact" aspect, very close, powerful, important. The house boundary lies midway between the two planets. The conjunction perfects in Cancer, so that fact...that the "aspect" moves to perfection in Cancer where Jupiter is dignified and Mars is not guides your interpretation.

Mars is in Gemini, not in Cancer. He is "read" in Gemini. But at less than 1-1/2 degrees from the sign/house boundary, and drawn by conjunction with Jupiter, Mars clearly influences 7th house affairs. His essential character is Geminian; his accidental influence is primarily 7th house.
Thank you very much, Greybeard.
That confirms and validates precisely the opinion/feeling i had (and also the whole sign house system), based on my experiences/life events (still, i would also like to read Dr. Farr's opinion on this)

Apropos, Greybeard...do you think that the gemini Mars accidental influence primarily in the 7th house comes from some sort of orb that the house/angle may have, pulling the planet inside or...maybe is due to the planet's own orb/energy...or the "moiety" of the planet's orb (mars, in this case)? Or both?

Thank you again,

PNS
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Unread 10-29-2018, 04:01 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
An Essential dignity is inborn, inherent and is shown by the signs. Mars in Aries is essentially dignified; Mars in Taurus essentially debilitated. Retrogradation is an essential debility because its motion is inherent in a planet at the moment of birth.

Most other conditions that carry dignity/debility are Accidental. Accidental is an astrological term that is shared with psychology. In psychology it means some psychological formation that grows out of an external event; Linda fears cats (psychological formation) because a cat bit her when she was a baby (external event). It is not essential, but experiential.

I used the term "drawn to" because the impending conjunction (the action) takes place on Jupiter's position in Cancer; Mars must move forward to perfect the conjunction.

In interpretation, we see that Mars, who is Geminian by nature, comes out of the 6th to join Jupiter in the 7th. That is what we "actually see" in the chart.

Last edited by greybeard; 10-29-2018 at 04:44 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to greybeard For This Useful Post:
Flapjacks (11-06-2018)
  #11  
Unread 10-29-2018, 05:38 PM
NorthScale MC NorthScale MC is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Porto, Portugal
Posts: 10
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
An Essential dignity is inborn, inherent and is shown by the signs. Mars in Aries is essentially dignified; Mars in Taurus essentially debilitated. Retrogradation is an essential debility because its motion is inherent in a planet at the moment of birth.

Most other conditions that carry dignity/debility are Accidental. Accidental is an astrological term that is shared with psychology. In psychology it means some psychological formation that grows out of an external event; Linda fears cats (psychological formation) because a cat bit her when she was a baby (external event). It is not essential, but experiential.

I used the term "drawn to" because the impending conjunction (the action) takes place on Jupiter's position in Cancer; Mars must move forward to perfect the conjunction.

In interpretation, we see that Mars, who is Geminian by nature, comes out of the 6th to join Jupiter in the 7th. That is what we "actually see" in the chart.
Sure, Greybeard. I'm familiar with those concepts: essential/zodiacal dignities (according to Ptolemy: dignity, exaltation, triplicity, term & face) and accidental (non zodiacal and conveyed by any attribute that fortifies the planet: direct, swift in motion, angular, free from combustion, in a beneficial aspect to a fortunate planet or conjunct a fixed star of a fortunate nature).

Probably, i didn´t explained myself in the best way. I was asking if you think that the "moving forward" of Mars to next house (7th, in this case) can originate from other reason than his conjuntion to Jupiter in that house. I.e. if you admit that a planet in the last 2/3 degrees of an house/sign (in whole sign house system) can, due to his orb/sphere of influence, extend his influence to the next house (or not)? (for instance, using the Dariot's "moety" limits).

Thank you,

PNS
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Unread 11-06-2018, 11:05 AM
avrillavigne's Avatar
avrillavigne avrillavigne is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 46
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

I have Sun (Aries 1°56') conjunct Venus (Pisces 29°07').
I do think that my Venus has some Aries flavour - I can be quite pushy and straight forward when it comes to relationships, but I'm still really romantic. Guys I have dated have told me that they didn't expect me to be so romantic and dreamy when they first met me. Even when I flirt I show my Aries side but if you get to know me I show my Pisces side.
I don't know if it is of any significance that both planets are exalted in those signs?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Unread 11-08-2018, 08:18 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

Aspects are aspects regardless of sign. The measurement of aspects is by degrees. In the case of the Leo Venus in 30 Leo and Sun less than one degree distant in 1 Virgo...How could this not be a valid and effective conjunction? Sun is lord of Leo and rules Venus. Venus is consumed by the flames of Sun.

I look at a situation like this as indicating some "special purpose" or "unique gift". Rather than set this conjunction "off to one side" because it is across the sign boundary, I think the configuration screams for attention. I shouts out its importance.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Unread 11-11-2018, 09:00 AM
besitos besitos is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 544
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

i have out of sign venus/eros conjunction, i feel it is valid. eros blends with venus - with the flavor of their signs. i mean, when you experience the world do you only taste it, or do you taste, see, smell, etc it?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Unread 11-13-2018, 07:42 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

Traditionally a planet within 5 degrees or so of subsequent house cusp is treated as if in the subsequent house. A planet within about 3 degrees is "on the doorstep" or "on the threshold". He's pounding on the door, ringing the bell... You are pretty well obligated to answer the door, and this new visitor affects the household. First thing in the door, this guy gives Jupiter a great big hug and gets him all excited. The ephemeris will show what he does later on. "Read" what you see the planets doing with confidence.

What does Mars (and Jupiter) mean in this chart. Work out the meaning and you will see the dynamics at work, you will see yourself portrayed.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Unread 07-18-2019, 02:11 PM
NorthScale MC NorthScale MC is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Porto, Portugal
Posts: 10
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Traditionally a planet within 5 degrees or so of subsequent house cusp is treated as if in the subsequent house. A planet within about 3 degrees is "on the doorstep" or "on the threshold". He's pounding on the door, ringing the bell... You are pretty well obligated to answer the door, and this new visitor affects the household. First thing in the door, this guy gives Jupiter a great big hug and gets him all excited. The ephemeris will show what he does later on. "Read" what you see the planets doing with confidence.

What does Mars (and Jupiter) mean in this chart. Work out the meaning and you will see the dynamics at work, you will see yourself portrayed.
Your thoughts make complete sense to me! Really helpful and insightful!
Thank you, Greybeard!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Unread 07-18-2019, 04:57 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthScale MC View Post
Your thoughts make complete sense to me! Really helpful and insightful!
Thank you, Greybeard!
Why, Thank You! You just made my day worthwhile.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Unread 07-18-2019, 05:07 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

Aspects are aspects and are measured by degrees. Sign boundaries do not affect the number of degrees between two planets. So "orb of aspect" is the basic measure of strength of influence. Whether or not the aspect is across sign lines does not affect this measure.

Use Bobby Fisher's chart as example. Uranus, Mars, and Neptune are in a partile (effectively at the least) grand trine in Air. All 3 energies vibrate in the same Element, harmoniously. In the trine group of aspects, harmony of Element is vital. If one of the three planets in a grand trine arrangement is cross-sign (out of Element), then it is not a grand trine, because it is the harmonious blending of the single Element that gives the grand trine its special power.

Now we turn to the square of Mercury to Uranus. A square normally occurs between two planets in the same Quality. Uranus is in Gemini, of the Common or Mutable Quality. A normal square would come from Pisces, a Common sign.

But Mercury is in Aquarius, a Fixed sign. (Note that Mercury rules Uranus in Gemini, while Uranus is associated with Aquarius. A sort of mutual reception). Both Gemini and Aquarius are Air signs. So the emphasis of this aberrant square has shifted from Quality to Element.

I call the square aberrant because it deviates from the norm for squares. It is deviant. What is deviant stands out; it is a special and unique attribute. In the horoscope, deviation of any sort deserves our special attention.

The Qualities, fundamentally, have to do with how we meet the outer world. The Elements are highly subjective, internal, and describe how we perceive the world.

Last edited by greybeard; 07-18-2019 at 06:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Unread 07-19-2019, 04:28 AM
Opal's Avatar
Opal Opal is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: x marks the spot
Posts: 663
Bil Tierney “The Dynamics of Aspect Analysis”

He writes quite a bit on out of aspect. An aspect is an aspect. There is not much out there on it.

Does anyone else know of existing writing on them?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Unread 07-19-2019, 06:36 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

A, the swifter planet, B the slower, 4 scenarios:

1) A applies to B, same sign.
2) A separates, same sign.
3) A separates, cross sign.
4) A applies, cross sign.

What say we explore interpretive possibilities here?

Notice that importance is given to application-separation. Most texts say applying aspects are stronger than separating, and leave it at that. But the actual character of the aspect changes. It is important.

Let's explore.

Last edited by greybeard; 07-19-2019 at 06:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Unread 07-21-2019, 10:50 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Rural Idaho
Posts: 3,527
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

No explorers.

What if we call A Mars and B Saturn? How do the 4 scenarios affect the manifestation of the conjunction?

Last edited by greybeard; 07-21-2019 at 11:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Unread 07-22-2019, 03:53 PM
Therese's Avatar
Therese Therese is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Bretagne, France
Posts: 246
Re: Out-of-sign Conjunctions (Thoughts and experiences)

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
No explorers.

What if we call A Mars and B Saturn? How do the 4 scenarios affect the manifestation of the conjunction?
In traditional astrology, applying aspects indicate facets of the personality or circumstances that intensify as the person ages, while separating aspects lose their intensity with time. Mars applying to Saturn would be like an athlete training for a major competition, or a soldier preparing for war. Mars separating from Saturn would be about what happens when that sports career or the war is over.

out of curiosity, I looked up some examples for the four scenarios:

1) A applies to B, same sign.


Venus Williams (rodden rating AA). Saturn conjunct Mars in Virgo in the 12th. Their ruler, Mercury is in Cancer in the 10th, Moon is in Leo conjunct Jupiter in Virgo in the 11th.

2) A separates, same sign.

Simone de Beauvoir (rodden rating A), Mars conjunct Saturn in Pisces at the IC. Moon also participates in the conjunction. Saturn rules a Sun-Mercury-Uranus conjunction in Capricorn in the 2nd house, and Mercury is ruler of the MC and DC.

3) A separates, cross sign.

Ted Knight was a WWII veteran awarded with five battle stars, who later became successful as a comedian. He had Saturn in Libra conjunct Mars in Scorpio. The chart has an A rodden rating, and the conjunction is in his second house, they receive no harsh aspect and rule no angles, etc.

Farinelli was the most famous soprano castrato singer of the 18th century. He had Saturn in Aries conjunct Mars in Taurus. Birth time is unknown. Saturn rules his Sun and Mercury in Aquarius, and his Moon is either in Capricorn or Aquarius.

4) A applies, cross sign.


Takashi Murakami (birth time unknown) has Saturn in Aquarius conjunct Mars in Capricorn, and six planets are ruled by Saturn. He is a contemporary artist known for his taste for harsh satire. He is also the founder of the postmodern "superflat" movement - where forms are flattened in an exaggerated way to express the shallowness of contemporary consumer culture.

Elvis Stojko (A rodden rating) has Saturn in Gemini conjunct Mars in Taurus. He was the first ice skater in the world to perform a quadruple jump combination, and was widely expected to become the first Canadian man to win an Olympic gold medal at Nagano. But he came down with the flu and suffered a groin injury and ended up with the silver. The Mars-Saturn conjunction is in the 11th house, and Mars rules his Sun and Mercury at the MC, while Saturn rules Jupiter in the 6th and his 7th house in Aquarius with the North Node in it.
__________________
Mundus Volubilis - the flowing universe
animism, divination & philosophy

Last edited by Therese; 07-22-2019 at 04:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
conjunctions, experiences, outofsign, thoughts

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 02:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.