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  #1  
Unread 07-18-2019, 04:46 PM
Matto Matto is offline
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Questions about Grand Cross

I haven't posted on here for a while but I am looking for some insight about the Grand Cross. I suppose this will have two main parts. Also my apologies if I am posting it in the wrong place...

My first question has to do with the "technicalities" of the Grand Cross. Most places I've looked at say that a Grand Cross involves each planet or point in the same modality (Fixed, Mutable or Cardinal).

However, I am wondering about my own pattern where Jupiter is in Leo opposing Saturn in Aquarius, and both are squaring my Moon near the beginning of Scorpio and my Mercury near the end of Aries. So my Moon and Mercury form an opposition in terms of degrees but Mercury falls outside of the modality - Mercury is Cardinal while Moon, Jupiter and Saturn sit in Fixed signs.

Is this considered a "weakened" Grand Cross? Or is there debate about whether to consider it a Grand Cross at all?

The other part of my question has to do with I guess family dynamics and family karma. I've recently discovered that not only do I have the pattern I've just described, but also my sister has a Cardinal Grand Cross involving Sun in Libra, Mars in Aries, Neptune in Capricorn and Chiron in Cancer.

This struck me because I know the Grand Cross is considered rare, so the possibility of having two in the same family fascinates me. My sister is my only sibling and I feel like her Grand Cross speaks of our family dynamics and struggles with both parents. We both have Chiron in Cancer and this means our "wound" is related to our family and our past. I'm wondering whether the two of us both having these patterns show some kind of difficult family karma that we are going through together as siblings.

Sorry for the wall of text but I would love it if someone shared their insights about this. Thank you!

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  #2  
Unread 07-18-2019, 09:19 PM
katydid katydid is online now
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Re: Questions about Grand Cross

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Originally Posted by Matto View Post
I haven't posted on here for a while but I am looking for some insight about the Grand Cross. I suppose this will have two main parts. Also my apologies if I am posting it in the wrong place...

My first question has to do with the "technicalities" of the Grand Cross. Most places I've looked at say that a Grand Cross involves each planet or point in the same modality (Fixed, Mutable or Cardinal).

However, I am wondering about my own pattern where Jupiter is in Leo opposing Saturn in Aquarius, and both are squaring my Moon near the beginning of Scorpio and my Mercury near the end of Aries. So my Moon and Mercury form an opposition in terms of degrees but Mercury falls outside of the modality - Mercury is Cardinal while Moon, Jupiter and Saturn sit in Fixed signs.

Is this considered a "weakened" Grand Cross? Or is there debate about whether to consider it a Grand Cross at all?



The other part of my question has to do with I guess family dynamics and family karma. I've recently discovered that not only do I have the pattern I've just described, but also my sister has a Cardinal Grand Cross involving Sun in Libra, Mars in Aries, Neptune in Capricorn and Chiron in Cancer.

This struck me because I know the Grand Cross is considered rare, so the possibility of having two in the same family fascinates me. My sister is my only sibling and I feel like her Grand Cross speaks of our family dynamics and struggles with both parents. We both have Chiron in Cancer and this means our "wound" is related to our family and our past. I'm wondering whether the two of us both having these patterns show some kind of difficult family karma that we are going through together as siblings.

Sorry for the wall of text but I would love it if someone shared their insights about this. Thank you!
"I'm wondering whether the two of us both having these patterns show some kind of difficult family karma that we are going through together as siblings."


YES. That is exactly right. You and your sis are in this together. Her 'Cross to bear' is in the Cardinal mode, yours in Fixed. [except your Aries portion.]

She might be more impulsive and take action quicker in response to family drama. You might be more internalised, and hold things in longer and stew on things for awhile. Fixed Grand crosses tend to get overwhelmed and shut down, holding deep resentment. Cardinal Grand Crosses lash out and respond physically and sometimes act before thinking things through.

So you and your sis might need each other, so you can help each other work through these Cancerian Chiron wounds in the best possible way.

She can prod you into making needed changes, instead of feeling stuck and in a deep rut. And you can help her think and talk things through so she can formulate a reasonable response, instead of a knee jerk reaction that makes things more volatile.
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  #3  
Unread 07-18-2019, 10:25 PM
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Re: Questions about Grand Cross

I think a pattern needs 4 actual planets in the corners to count as a grand cross (some would count chart angles or sensitive points) but I would accept close out-of-sign aspects. I think Bil Tierney's book, Dynamics of Aspect Analysis covers them.

For sure families can have astrological signatures across and within the generations. My family has sun-Pluto contacts (sun-Pluto aspects and/or sun in Scorpio) for 5 generations. Not every member has them, but no generation that I examined so far is missing them entirely.
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Unread 07-19-2019, 03:16 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Questions about Grand Cross

These grand formations (trine, square) derive their special characteristics and powers from the strong emphasis on a single Element or Quality.


A grand cross does not exist here because the 4th arm of the potential cross is Cardinal, not Fixed. The aspects themselves are still valid, but the unbalanced formation is not.

You still have the T-square cross. And maybe that cross-sign opposition will provide a relief valve.

The grand cross is certainly not rare, nor even uncommon.
We see them often enough...a very difficult formation.

Aspect formations represent psychological complexes. I do not assign any pejorative meaning to the word "complex". I simply mean a complex of psychological energies which are consistently interactive, feed off of each other. They may act for good or ill.

The T-square is a tension formation, consisting of an opposition and two squares. So this formation sets up a conflict [the very nature of opposing forces], which can then be resolved by the two squares [whose nature demands constructive action]. The planet at the apex is brought to point focus and its influence in the chart is increased

Last edited by greybeard; 07-19-2019 at 03:49 AM.
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Unread 07-19-2019, 04:51 AM
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Re: Questions about Grand Cross

greybeard, astrologers disagree on several of the features of the grand cross, and other aspect patterns.

If you've got a copy of Bil Tierney's book, Dynamics of Aspect Analysis, check out his p. 91 on the "dissociate grand square." (He also allows chart angles as one point of the grand square, which I find not so helpful.)

One way to more easily mitigate the tension of the T-square and grand cross, is that often there will be a natal planet that sextiles one planet in an opposition, and trines the other one. Everybody will have such a helper-planet by transit. (Called the Point of Thales.)

I sometimes think of the grand cross as "one's cross to bear." It doesn't confer an easy life, but one with tremendous potential for personal growth, as the squared planets continue to exert their pressure on one another.
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  #6  
Unread 07-19-2019, 07:44 AM
Matto Matto is offline
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Re: Questions about Grand Cross

Thanks for the replies so far. I knew there was an element of this that was "uncertain" due to Mercury in my pattern being out of modality, and also my sister's pattern involving Chiron, which is not necessarily always interpreted. So I guess I was looking for some clarity, but it may be challenging to get in this situation.

I got a reading from an astrologer recently and he did mention a T-square, rather than a Grand Cross. I guess it's up to interpretation.

As for the "helper planet" waybread mentioned, my Sun is indeed sextile Saturn and trine Jupiter! And then in terms of the Moon-Mercury opposition, my Mars is trine my Moon and sextile Mercury! Interesting how the two helpers in my case are both of rather assertive nature, with Sun being the ego and asserting individuality and Mars asserting masculine energy etc. Even despite having Sun in Aries, I have trouble asserting myself at times and feel "stuck" in the Fixed energy of my pattern.
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Unread 07-19-2019, 10:54 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Questions about Grand Cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matto View Post

My first question has to do with the "technicalities" of the Grand Cross. Most places I've looked at say that a Grand Cross involves each planet or point in the same modality (Fixed, Mutable or Cardinal).

However, I am wondering about my own pattern where Jupiter is in Leo opposing Saturn in Aquarius, and both are squaring my Moon near the beginning of Scorpio and my Mercury near the end of Aries. So my Moon and Mercury form an opposition in terms of degrees but Mercury falls outside of the modality - Mercury is Cardinal while Moon, Jupiter and Saturn sit in Fixed signs.

Is this considered a "weakened" Grand Cross? Or is there debate about whether to consider it a Grand Cross at all?
I would think that an excellent manner to consider whether you have only a fixed square OR a workable grand cross is how the recent transit of Uranus (if you use the outer planets) from end Aries (conjunct Mercury) into Taurus (opp. Moon) mentally and emotionally affected you, and the involvement of/with natal Jupiter -Saturn. Uranus can bring about mental stress through a necessity of change approaching but that is initially not wished for.

IF Mercury makes up a grand cross it will be your thought pattern and how you verbally express yourself (Mercury) that is the instigator (or not) of attempting to bring some movement into the what you called 'feeling stuck' of the Fixed T-square.
Moon in Scorpio, especially, can be 'a stick in the mud', holding all feelings within, that may only be verbally expressed in an emotional outburst that Mercury induces.

Harsh Jupiter-Saturn aspects are often found in the high highs, low lows of mental/emotional (dys)functioning [bi-polar). Do you consider that Mercury's expression of emotional issues helps in 'calming down' and providing a 'stability' (Fixed), or does the lack of mental expression (stuck in the head) keep you on the fixed wheel of emotional discontent?

Quote:
The other part of my question has to do with I guess family dynamics and family karma. I've recently discovered that not only do I have the pattern I've just described, but also my sister has a Cardinal Grand Cross involving Sun in Libra, Mars in Aries, Neptune in Capricorn and Chiron in Cancer.

This struck me because I know the Grand Cross is considered rare, so the possibility of having two in the same family fascinates me. My sister is my only sibling and I feel like her Grand Cross speaks of our family dynamics and struggles with both parents. We both have Chiron in Cancer and this means our "wound" is related to our family and our past. I'm wondering whether the two of us both having these patterns show some kind of difficult family karma that we are going through together as siblings.
Chiron takes 50 years in its orbit round the Sun, yet being elliptical of nature spends a shorter/longer time in some signs than others. In the late 1980's - early 1990's it absolutely raced through Cancer. With siblings often born within several years of each other, many will have Chiron in the same sign. It isn't such an exceptional occurance. It might well cloud judgement if taken as being so.
All blood siblings share the same family, yet each will experience the nature of it in a personal manner. House position, in more sense than one, is important. You may 'feel' its effects more because your Moon, ruler Cancer, makes such harsh aspects in the chart. You do not mention whether your sister's Moon makes harsh aspects. If you have discussed it with her (Aries versus Libra effect ???), you may hear that she emotionally experiences to have lived in a totally different family to you.

In Chiron's myth, he had no family. Within harsh aspects, 'the pain' of a lack of physical nurturing, mother-child issues, emotional instability of needs, might be apparent in Cancer, whereby showing how one feels may not come naturally …… out of fear of being hurt?

Last edited by Frisiangal; 07-19-2019 at 11:00 AM. Reason: correction
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Unread 07-19-2019, 12:51 PM
Matto Matto is offline
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Re: Questions about Grand Cross

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Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
I would think that an excellent manner to consider whether you have only a fixed square OR a workable grand cross is how the recent transit of Uranus (if you use the outer planets) from end Aries (conjunct Mercury) into Taurus (opp. Moon) mentally and emotionally affected you, and the involvement of/with natal Jupiter -Saturn. Uranus can bring about mental stress through a necessity of change approaching but that is initially not wished for.
Thanks for your great response! Honestly I'm not sure how the current Uranus opp. Moon is affecting me, I'm not really feeling much of anything that I can connect back to that transit. But the Uranus conjunct Mercury transit showed up for sure, through a rebirth of active communication with online friends, and even people online in general. And I made some new friends. I'm not sure how to think of it beyond that tbh. I guess there's been some mental restlessness too, but that could just be how I am anyway.

It didn't feel as strong as when Uranus was on my Sun four years ago, that was something that definitely came like a bang and I really felt it LOL.

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Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
IF Mercury makes up a grand cross it will be your thought pattern and how you verbally express yourself (Mercury) that is the instigator (or not) of attempting to bring some movement into the what you called 'feeling stuck' of the Fixed T-square.
I feel like it's in the expression, yes. Lately it's definitely also been about getting around (volunteering, visiting new places etc.). It's as if I need that to help loosen up the fixed-ness and when it's time to come home, literally or figuratively, it's back to feeling stuck.

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Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
Do you consider that Mercury's expression of emotional issues helps in 'calming down' and providing a 'stability' (Fixed), or does the lack of mental expression (stuck in the head) keep you on the fixed wheel of emotional discontent?
That's an interesting question. Communication tends to help. I don't think it necessarily provides stability, it's more like... My Moon in Scorpio is very brooding and intense and needs an outlet. And having the Mercury energy on the other end means it's beneficial for me to communicate it at times, even if obviously my Moon & Mercury are imbalanced.

Definitely agree with the last part. I'm very mercurial but it sort of keeps me stuck too. I have a lot of aspects with Mercury.

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Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
You may 'feel' its effects more because your Moon, ruler Cancer, makes such harsh aspects in the chart. You do not mention whether your sister's Moon makes harsh aspects. If you have discussed it with her (Aries versus Libra effect ???), you may hear that she emotionally experiences to have lived in a totally different family to you.
That's a very good point too. To my surprise, my sister's Moon mostly has "soft" aspects. We share the Moon square Jupiter but other than that, her Moon has trines with Pluto, Chiron and MC (her Cancer Chiron sits right on her Midheaven), sextile with Neptune (she's an artist, very imaginative and original), quintiles with Saturn & Uranus and then a couple of other minor aspects that I don't remember much about.

Her Moon is in Pisces, which obviously adds to the sensitivity, and she's had some unusual experiences as a result of our family history.
We agree on a lot of family-related things but sometimes in conversation she'll bring to light something that I didn't even realize or know about our family dynamics, it's fascinating. I feel like it might be partly her Moon trine Pluto which isn't afraid to explore those family- and past-related depths.
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  #9  
Unread 07-19-2019, 06:52 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Questions about Grand Cross

Here's food for thought.

I have 3 malefics spread across a 13° span of a Fixed sign. Any planet transiting any Fixed sign will be in adverse aspect to this triple conjunction throughout its passage of the sign.

Sort of a Junior Grand Cross in effect.
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Unread 07-20-2019, 04:31 PM
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Re: Questions about Grand Cross

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Here's food for thought.

I have 3 malefics spread across a 13° span of a Fixed sign. Any planet transiting any Fixed sign will be in adverse aspect to this triple conjunction throughout its passage of the sign.

Sort of a Junior Grand Cross in effect.
Yes, I like that: a junior Grand Cross
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Unread 07-21-2019, 09:49 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Questions about Grand Cross

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Here's food for thought.

I have 3 malefics spread across a 13° span of a Fixed sign. Any planet transiting any Fixed sign will be in adverse aspect to this triple conjunction throughout its passage of the sign.

Sort of a Junior Grand Cross in effect.
Getting nit-picky here, I know, but a 'stellium' of planets (if 3 are counted as such) or triple conjunction is not the same as a 'cross'. Both are inherent of nature, yet when activated a triple conjunction can represent 'a one way' only approach factor, according to the elemental (temperament) nature of the sign. The grand cross experiences the major converging crossroad that offers different either/or/and elemental/temperamental perspectives towards the same issue.

A stellium/triple conjunction would seem easier for an individual to live with because there is no inner conflict of choices to be made as there is with the grand cross.

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  #12  
Unread 07-21-2019, 12:46 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Questions about Grand Cross

Agreed.

It was a tongue-in-cheek comparison.

"Food for thought" means "something to think about". Doesn't call for agreement, just thought.

Last edited by greybeard; 07-21-2019 at 12:49 PM.
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