Inviting thoughts on Pluto

sandstone said:

vista,

i think the 45 and 135 are 2 aspects that are underrated.. i think they deserve more attention then they usually get.. i use these aspects all the time..

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I know this is a bit off the subject..but I'm really interested- I got quite a few close ones of these aspects in my chart and have been trying to figure them out..

sandstone,
If you use these aspects all the time, how do you interpret them? -similar to a square? And what orb do you allow?

sandstone ~
i agree regarding orbs.
traditionalists get locked into events but not lead up and follow up ~
once got into good blast with astrologer over 4 planets in Virgo ~ 6 degree spread btwn them ~ because i called it down stellium. All in same house.
How does thay collective virgo energy, or any for that .atter, not build and feed on itself?
tight orb's are for actual events/occurances.

yes maemae - tight orb for events makes much more sense.. otherwise the orb question is a classic novice type question that can potentially interfere with going deeper into the chart..

Hi Miquar,
Thank you for looking at his chart.
As you mentioned he advertised on the net,"The Cannibal Cafe."
Many people replied to the advert but backed out later.
Brandes responded and he met Meiwes on 9 March 2001.
Meiwes cut off Brandes penis before stabbing him in the neck,Tau/Sco,then hung him on a meat hook,(Ereshkigal).Note the transits.
Meiwes has,PL=SU/MA
SA=MA/PL
SA=SU/MA
Meiwes was born in Essen which is in N R Westphalia,this area is where Neandertal 1 was discovered.Scientists think Neandertals practiced cannibalism.
I do not know Brandes DOB.

J.R.

Lin said:

You know what's funny? I is that no one discusses "reproduction" which is really a very Plutonian process. The whole "irrevocable change" thing... the metamorposis... is really about a woman's body. She undergoes a lot of Plutonia change during her life.
Most women first menstruate...that is irrevocable change. She loses her virginitiy (Plutonian change) - she becomes pregnant - very Plutonian - and the ultimate is the bringing an actual other human being from her body.... metamorphosis... and when nature is done with her she undergoes menopause. God.... how do we women do it?

And because we do it, women are much more "in tune" with the physical universe than men are because our bodies represent literally the Plutonian experience.

There are so many other Plutonian experiences, but this is the core basic one.

Of course when you get int Pluto and the PSYCHE it all becomes psychological and the physical metamorphoses become emotional, mental, and metaphorical.

Pluto represents the "big bang" of creation. Nuclear energy. We all have it. Birth and death is played out within us.
LIN

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Big bang of thoughts! *applause*

That's fascinating stuff JerryRR, especially about the Neandertal's being discovered at the birth place of someone who challenged our cultural values by echoing their cannibalistic practices.

Lin said:

You know what's funny? I is that no one discusses "reproduction" which is really a very Plutonian process. The whole "irrevocable change" thing... the metamorposis... is really about a woman's body.

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Great point. And of course Ereshkigal came a long time before Hades and Pluto. And it was her difficult labour that prompted Innana to visit Ereshkigal in the underworld. And only when the 'mourners' empathise with Ereshkigal does the story find a happy ending.

Rebel Uranian said:

Oh, does anyone know how Pluto can repeatedly have "positive: optimism, negative: depression?" I came to that conclusion too but I don't understand it yet whatsoever.

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For me the answer to this is captured by Liz Greene in Mythic Astrology:

'From Pluto comes the priceless gift of recognising when it is time to let go. This is the real nature of the god's just law, for those who honour it possess an indestructible conviction of life's intelligent purposefulness. Failure to acknowledge Pluto can erode our trust and faith in life because of the feeling that life has treated us unfairly.'

Sorry - I know you're not Liz Greene's biggest fan, but I feel this captures how Scorpio/8th house issues feed into Sagittarius/9th house stuff - as though once we take the right perspective with Pluto/Scorpio/8th house crises, we already have one foot in the optimistic vision of Jupiter, Sagittarius and the ninth.

Vista said:

You know you are the second person who has brought up semisquares. Honestly, i never game them much power or thought but I am sort of wondering now.

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Hi Vista. I think transiting semisquares and sesquiquadrates have a lot more clout when they are part of a bigger picture. Like with my Venus Uranus square, which is aspected by the Sun by a semisquare an a sesquiquadrate. When transiting Pluto was square my Sun it was setting off the natal configuration as well as making minor hard aspects to Uranus and Venus. And it was also aspecting two planets at once by minor hard aspects. I'm not sure something like transiting Pluto sesquadrate Mars on its own, or transiting Saturn semisquare Sun on its own would be very powerful experiences in most cases. But other people may have experiences to the contrary.

I do think my close minor hard natal aspects are important factors in my chart though.

waybread said:

I think Jeff Greene claims too much in his Pluto books where he equates Pluto with the soul. The soul has to be more than the entire chart. I think the chart says a lot about the soul's incarnation.

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Yes I know what you mean. I think it was Howard Sasportas who said that Mars is the energy to do work in the world; Pluto is the energy to do work in the underworld. Maybe Pluto symbolises the expression of the will of the soul, just as Mars symbolises the expression of the will of the individual. Lower-higher octave stuff, I guess - Mercury is the mind of the individual so maybe Uranus is on one level the mind of the soul, Venus is the for relationship in the individual and so perhaps Neptune is the Soul's urge to merge with other souls.

Sasportas also described Mars as the henchman of the Sun, which perhaps makes Pluto the henchman of the soul!

This is a quote from a book I dipped into yesterday - Healing Pluto Problems, by Donna Cunningham:

'When we do not give ourselves time to regenerate and to process new stages of life, resentment and grief can build up to toxic levels....Time alone [ie time spent alone] can give us guidance from our Higher Selves...In the old days we had retreats and monasteries. Today the average person has nothing like that and little awareness of the need for it. Today we have cancer.'

I guess when we're struggling against Plutonian processes, we are like a child having a tantrum - completely unable to hear the voice of reason from the parent who has our best interests at heart. We're metaphorically screaming too loud to hear the guidance.

miquar said:

.....
This is a quote from a book I dipped into yesterday - Healing Pluto Problems, by Donna Cunningham:

'When we do not give ourselves time to regenerate and to process new stages of life, resentment and grief can build up to toxic levels....Time alone [ie time spent alone] can give us guidance from our Higher Selves...In the old days we had retreats and monasteries. Today the average person has nothing like that and little awareness of the need for it. Today we have cancer.'

....

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Regeneration is just a beautiful word in Plutonain processes. It acknowledges that something is pathological--even moribund, but that there is new life afterwards if we let the healing process happen.... instead of just stuffing unhappy memories into Plutonian underworlds where they fester.

I think the Greek playwrights also had the concept of catharsis-- where the hero of a tragedy was basically a good guy who did something bad and wrong, but who redeemed himself by acknowledging his responsibility for his actions.

Another good word is redemption.

I notice you quote J.W Goethe.
His Ascendant Scorpio,Saturn con ASC,Pluto in Scorpio 1st House.
Books,"The Sorrows of Young Werther" and "Faust" etc.
I think it took 60 years to complete Faust.

J.R.

I came across this very short story years ago - it struck me as extremely Plutonian, though I'm at a loss to fully articulate why.

Before leaving on a trip, a man instructs his wife that she is not allowed to enter a particular room and see what is in there. When he returns from the trip and sees that his wife has indeed not entered the room, he kills her on the spot.

Something about her indifference offending the need for intimacy hidden beneath his secrecy? Or is it that he cannot bare her slavishness to rules and conventions? Anyway its not necessarily posted for analysis - its like a kind of Pluto poem.

donna cunninghams book is quite good i think...

miquar - the is a ****** up story showing how non-regenerated a person can be as i see it..

bina - i deleted a post to you as i didn't feel like sharing the personal info i had.. try to find larger pictures inside a chart and it will help you understand how much or little to use for orbs..

JerryRR said:

I notice you quote J.W Goethe.
His Ascendant Scorpio,Saturn con ASC,Pluto in Scorpio 1st House.
Books,"The Sorrows of Young Werther" and "Faust" etc.
I think it took 60 years to complete Faust.

J.R.

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Yes, I do hope I pull my nose out of astrology books and read Faust one of these days...

I just looked at Goethe's chart - he seems to have started Faust with transiting Pluto sextile the Ascendant and Saturn, and finished it with transiting Pluto sesquiquadrate them. It has been described as a powerfully Plutonian book.

sandstone said:

miquar - the is a ****** up story showing how non-regenerated a person can be as i see it..

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Yes, quite. But it also gives a sense of what in him is in need of purging. He perhaps needs his wife to be two things at once - she who respects his secrecy and the pain which is entangled with it, and also she who ignores his request for secrecy so that she be for him what the mourners were for Ereshkigal. Maybe he would have killed her either way.

whenever we need someone else to be something or someone for us, we are ******* as i see it.. it is the basis for so much pain and anguish, but to inflict our own pain and anguish on others is an even worse scenario which is what you have shared in that story... cheers - james

So bizarre. I was avidly reading this thread and listening to Rammstein songs I'd never heard before, which I'd just randomly click on youtube with no apparent methodology. I was really enjoying this one particular song, and kept jumping back and forth between this thread and the music clip, and decided that due to the -interesting- nature of the video clip I had to know what was being communicated, lyrically. The song is "Mein Teil", which basically means "My Part", and here is the first part of the translation found on http://herzeleid.com/en/lyrics/reise_reise/mein_teil:

“Looking for a well-built 18 to 30-year-old to be slaughtered”
The Master Butcher [2]
Today I will meet a gentleman
He likes me so much he could eat me up
Soft parts and even hard ones [3]
are on the menu
Because you are what you eat
and you know what it is
It is my part – no
My part – no
There that's my part – no
My part – no...


Too bizarre


Here's the song/video if anyone's interested http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=w5EQf8iw1Qk


I thought the lyrics might prove interesting in your plutonian-related studies, anyhow.

On 14 March 1930,Venetia Burney suggested Pluto as the name for the new Planet.
She has natal Sun and Pluto in Cancer.
Transiting Pluto con natal Sun and SA direction Pluto > con Sun.

J.R.

sandstone said:

whenever we need someone else to be something or someone for us, we are ******* as i see it.. it is the basis for so much pain and anguish, but to inflict our own pain and anguish on others is an even worse scenario which is what you have shared in that story... cheers - james

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Definitely - I've had my share of that over the years. Perhaps the trick is to cultivate a strong enough ego to contain and process the pain creatively, but not a rigid kind of strength that shuts it out. Because of course today's burning is tomorrow's sense of inner power if we handle it right.

I like the alchemical imagery of the Calcinatio, in which a lion or a wolf is put in sealed alembic, with its paws cut off, and a fire is lit beneath it. The animal rages and suffers until it is burnt to ash, and the alchemist must watch the whole time, for turning away is a symbol of withdrawing conscious attention of the process and so it doesn't fulfil its purpose. The wolf or lion are symbols of the infantile desire for omnipotence which must go through this burning frustration in order for a solid ego to form in the individual. The Calcinatio is the stage of the alchemical process most like Plutonic processes, and also correlates to the element of fire. Transits and progressions involving Pluto, Mars, fire signs and Scorpio are especially prone to come out through Calcinatio-type experiences.

Jung had a great deal to say about all this, but a good summary can be found in Dynamics Of The Unconscious, by Liz Greene and Howard Sasportas.