communicating to a native with a mental disorder

waybread

Well-known member
You may have a diagnosed mental or neurological disorder affecting your thoughts, be a mental health professional, have a family member or friend with a mental illness, or otherwise be willing to join the discussion!

How do you communicate the horoscope (or how should an astrologer communicate the horoscope) to a person with a mental illness?

I am skating on very thin ice here, but after reading a few thousand charts for people, I've come to believe that the horoscope can't be interpreted in the same way as to a person without a mental disorder. Of course, there is the obvious, common-sense approach: don't suggest that a native who is suicidal put herself in harm's way or be overly harsh with her.

But there are other issues as well, in that defensiveness, hostility, or victimhood may be part of the coping strategies the person has developed to navigate through a difficult life. Thus someone who asks for a chart reading may be bringing many more issues to the reading than the astrologer would normally anticipate.

I attach no stigma to mental illness. If a person broke a leg or caught pneumonia, these physical illnesses are comparable to a person who is depressed or bipolar. This isn't just my opinion: it's the law in Canada (where I live,) which prohibits discrimination on the basis of health/ability. In Canadian law, an employer (for example) cannot discriminate against a person in a wheelchair-- or against a person with diagnosed Tourette syndrome-- and must make accommodation for both in the workplace, provided they are able to do the basic requirements of the job.

The definition of "neuro-normal" behaviour is constantly shifting.

Your thoughts on this topic are welcome!
 

Marinka

Well-known member
Is it something that has already happened or will happen (stroke, brain hemorrhage) in the future (upcoming harsh Neptune transit)?

Is it also in the natal chart?

While I can see why the chart will not be posted - can we get some idea of the transits of the Neptune on the Sun, Moon and Mercury.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
Waybread,

IMO, it depends on several things.

When it regards communication on the AC forum:

1. It sort of depends on the kind of astrology you want to do. Most people come here not for a full analysis that they would get from a professional astrologer and a were willing to pay the $160-$300 that they would have to pay. They just want a quick answer. Many of them want a quick positive answer that agrees with their point of view, so they want to be validated for what they think---even if the astrology disagrees with what they think.

2. Most people here don't want to become astrologers. And if they do, they want it to be a "quick learn"--and from the internet only. They haven't the foggiest idea that there are some of us who are still learning after putting in 45 years of study. And so they really only want to know astrology at the Linda Goodman Sun Sign level, or less. In fact they don't want to be told that it is infinitely more complicated. They certainly don't want to have to actually buy books and slog through them.

3. IMO, I don't assume that everyone has a mental illness, but if I think they do, then I need to know what it is. The most common illness that shows up in hospital wards is Borderline Personality Disorder, roughly 20%. But bi-polar is there too, and many others. Problem is that we don't often have the diagnosis given to us, and we have no way of knowing if its the correct diagnosis, or even if the OP isn't just plain lying to us.

My experience here is that most of the mental illness is the BPD variety, with the OP believing that the world has victimized them. And then they arrange for this group to disagree with them, posting angry responses to answers until their self fulfilling belief shows that we too are victimizing them.

But without knowing their actual diagnosis, its pretty hard to decide how to interact with them. THE BPD's are pretty much impossible since they want you to victimize them.

When it involves communication for astrologers in private practice:

There are two things that I always did when I was in private practice.

a. I ran an event chart on the moment of their asking for assistance to find out what they might really want with me.

b. I ran my change quotient on them initially to find out if I wanted to take their case, to find out whether they could actually use the information that I might share with them and how likely they were going to be to disagree violently with me.

Them's my thoughts. Others probably have a completely different point of view.
 
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Zarathu

Account Closed
And then we have the complication of those disorders which aren't really disorders but just ways of life:

1. tendency to want to control everything
2. emotionally overwrought
3. Just angry all the time
4. Temper issues
5. ETC

Many of these issues can be seen by high latitude Moon, and out of bounds mars, Venus, Moon and even Mercury. I try to remember to be more careful when I see signatures involving OOB inner planets, and high latitude Moon.
 

ashriia

Well-known member
well I think being nice, and being tactful is a start for any astrologer responding to a question being asked.

I have had many friends and 2 partners that were Bipolar. Bipolar people often have trouble taking responsibilities for their actions, place the blame elsewhere. It's not like they are reveling in victimhood, often they want to change their behaviors. Usually it takes someone leaving them or loss, for them to work towards change. But.. I really think all astrologers especially in these online forums should be more tactful. You can't approach someone with a mental disorder and say well "your not doing anything to change yourself". or " this is what you should do" blah, blah. not going to work. sounds more like a parental authority. and that just isn't going to fly.

it would also help to listen to what a poster is saying, especially if they mention having a disorder. and working with them based on what they say, rather than what the astrologer thinks is best for them. it's an eggshell walk. but if an astrologer knows they can't be tactful, because it's in their nature to be crass and blunt, then they shouldn't try to help someone that they should know full well is going to be hypersensitive to what they say.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
it would also help to listen to what a poster is saying, especially if they mention having a disorder. and working with them based on what they say, rather than what the astrologer thinks is best for them. it's an eggshell walk. but if an astrologer knows they can't be tactful, because it's in their nature to be crass and blunt, then they shouldn't try to help someone that they should know full well is going to be hypersensitive to what they say.

I agree 100% for this in private practice. But the problem is that here the poster often presents a different picture in their initial question than they do once the astrologer has answered it. This means that without a knowledge of what we are dealing with, we don't know that the person is really here to blame or to be victimized or whatever. And we also don't know if we are just dealing with a mean troll like poster or whether the person really has an issue. And we don't know if the OP is an intermediate or advance astrologer who really does know the data, and is just spooling for a fight.

It can be a real walk in the dark here on AC. I've seen YOU defend me from people who just flipped out on me when they asked for a frank answer and I gave them what they asked for.

MY QUESTION for Waybread now is: Are we talking about our responses here on AC or our responses to clients in the real world????
 

Moog

Well-known member
it depends entirely on the disorder(s)

I've a number of diagnoses under my belt, but for the most part I'm just... normal, with some problems, that don't especially hinder anyone's ability to communicate with me.

Someone with a mixture of borderline PD and bipolar is a completely different kettle of fish.
 

Moog

Well-known member
And then we have the complication of those disorders which aren't really disorders but just ways of life:

1. tendency to want to control everything
2. emotionally overwrought
3. Just angry all the time
4. Temper issues
5. ETC

Yeah, we get into Temperament there probably.

Is it avoidant personality disorder? Or are they just very Melancholic?

Is it antisocial PD or are they just ridiculously Choleric?

etc. etc.
 

Marinka

Well-known member

Hmmm .. I get it now.

This is about that thread yesterday when the person had some interesting comments about your comments.

I guess my question is - --- why are you saying that they are mentally ill.. is this retribution for what they said?

We have all been there -- what differs is the way we handle it.

 

Zarathu

Account Closed

Hmmm .. I get it now.

This is about that thread yesterday when the person had some interesting comments about your comments.

I guess my question is - --- why are you saying that they are mentally ill.. is this retribution for what they said?

We have all been there -- what differs is the way we handle it.


I've spoken to Waybread PM. This is not about any kind of vendetta for anything anyone said to her. This is about a general question of what we do when we suddenly realize that we are speaking to a person with a thought or emotional process that isn't able to take our direct stuff from astrology without "coming apart in some way". Or, if we already know that there is that kind of issue, how do we approach the client or the forum client.


Another one is Asperger Syndrome. This is one that is pretty typical of astrology as a field due to the huge amount of knowledge that can be learned, and the fact that social interaction is moderated by simply sharing astrology or stuff about astrology. All the forums(here on AC and the internet as a whole) have a large number, and since this diagnosis is only fairly recent in schools, most of them do not know that they have the disorder. Asperger Syndrome people can be very difficult to interact with due to their extremely rigid frames of reference. Basically, they can't put themselves in your point of view, and they believe if they see it a certain way, then everyone sees it that way. And if you don't they get pretty adamant that you MUST see it their way. I have a close personal friend who is 80 and who has written a great deal about how people need to perceive the world the way s/he does. Nobody does; but s/he simply won't give up.

On a forum, they usually just post a huge amount of stuff, somne related to the subject, and some only tangentally related. Its rare to see a succinct direct answer to the question numbered 1, 2,3, 4, 5. Its actually called "impairment of executive function". Often a small detail that is bsarely related will be vblown completely out of proportion. But then again, in astrology this is a good subject to interact ON for an Aspergers Syndrome person: often small details that others don't see ARE the significant lynch pin in the person's chart.
 
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Moog

Well-known member
It's my perception that a lot of moderns do seem to err on the unrealistic side of how easy it is to change rooted in behaviour/psychology

A couple of paragraphs of telling someone they have all the power they need (or equivalent words) to completely alter their problems is kinda condescending and not realistic.

So I wouldn't do that.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
It's my perception that a lot of moderns do seem to err on the unrealistic side of how easy it is to change rooted in behavior/psychology

OOOOOOH! I guess that makes me a "modern traditionalist". Having spent a career in the mumbo jumbo of professional counseling, I don't use any of that terminology or process in my work---at least not in the way that you are talking about. It was part of my major falling out with my former friend Noel Tyl.
 

Moog

Well-known member
OOOOOOH! I guess that makes me a "modern traditionalist". Having spent a career in the mumbo jumbo of professional counseling, I don't use any of that terminology or process in my work---at least not in the way that you are talking about. It was part of my major falling out with my former friend Noel Tyl.

I'm not sure what you mean. You fell out with Noel Tyl because he had unrealistic expectations?

I haven't mentioned professional counselling.
 

Moog

Well-known member
'professional counselling' or therapy is often a long and drawn out process, and most 'clients' are resistant to the process.
 

Vista

Well-known member
Zarathu, you have my mother's natal chart information so you can look to see for yourself. My mother has two very specific characteristics, one is her need to control everything and constantly give directives: the other is her uncontrollable temper. She is a screamer and explodes at the drop of a hat and says horrible things then 10 mintutes later will say something like "hey, what do you want for dinner?" Boderline Personality or a form of Bipolar? I should say on the flip her work ethic and reputation are great. She is someone you can completely rely on and great at saving money and has inpeccable credit - not that these are criteria necessarily, just more of an FYI that she is very stable overall.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
I guess that means you take a middle path? Between pure fatalism and pure free will. Compatibilism?

No... it means that I tend to follow the astrology of the traditional except that I don't stop using new information. Traditionals don't use planets beyond Saturn, Witte Sensitive points, Symbol systems, Uranian planets, Dark Moon Lilith, Asteroids, Astrodynes, etc. I do. I don't couch my interpretations in Gestalt psychology or Noel Tyl's psycho-analytic psychology, or any other of the psychological theorists ways of looking at the world. I was trained in personality theory way back when, but I don't use it in astrology.

And as to Noel Tyl, you can be friends with him if you subscribe to his psycho-analytic mumbo jumbo way of interpreting charts. If you don't use those methods and you post on his forum, you can make him very very angry. Less so now, but quite so 10 years ago. I take it you don't have any of his 27 books.
 

Zarathu

Account Closed
'professional counseling' or therapy is often a long and drawn out process, and most 'clients' are resistant to the process.

In the psycho-analytic mode, yes. In the cognitive behavior mode, no. I was never given enough time for that and most professional counselors in the USA have switched to mostly cognitive behavioral processes, which stress action and not learning about yourself. Its all about changing your behavior, from the very beginning. Clients leave the first counseling sessions with behavioral homework, and all subsequent sessions are about road blocks to changing behavior and fixing them. Clients who resist behavior change and just want to talk are generally let go, unless the counselor needs the money bad.
 

waybread

Well-known member
Super responses, everyone!

Just in response to several of them:

Zaruthu-- Thank you for your professional insights! Very helpful.

I have never been and have no intention of becoming a professional astrologer, so my personal stake in the matter would be for communicating with posters here and at another astrology forum. However, I think there is some overlap between the two. I am certainly be interested in a professional astrologer's experiences of client interactions!

Marinka, I didn't have a particular individual or horoscope in mind, although (as you note) recently I did get an angry reaction from a poster on another thread-- who self-identified as having mental health disorders. I truly don't take insulting posts personally. My attitude is that the poster has never met me personally so I can't take the insults personally. As I sometimes say in these situations, "Thank God, I'm an Aquarian." Detachment comes easily to me. No, I'm not into retribution, either.

The thread in question did get me thinking, however, about a broader issue that's been on my mind for a while; of how we communicate the horoscope, or how we respond to the individual, beyond what we analyse in the chart. I can communicate out of my own horoscope (aka personality) or I can try to speak to the person I see in the chart, and be extra-sensitive to a very watery person, bolder with a firey person, &c.

As a general rule, I do think we have to moderate our voices in speaking to people. They don't come here to be insulted. Once in a while, however, when I think the person is truly unhappy yet hasn't engaged with the advice s/he asked for, and that might make a difference if adopted, I might take a more intrusive tone.

I started this thread, however, because by now I almost think it doesn't matter what tone one takes when communicating to a person whose mental illness commits him to profound unhappiness, because the astrologer's practical advice or astrological insights will make no difference anyway. The person is probably primarily interested in confirmation of what s/he already believes, as Zaruthu suggested.

This is not a perjorative judgment, btw. We all have our blind spots, or psychic wounds we don't want others to probe. No doubt. Also, somebody struggling with deep unhappiness has to find coping methods that elevate him somewhat in his own eyes, by way of sustaining some sense of human dignity. A "neruo-normal" person might find these coping strategies dysfunctional but then we don't walk in that person's shoes.

I recall one interaction I had with a man with, among other disorders, a deep fear of leaving his home. He was socially isolated, unemployed, and unhappy. He had tried a course of tablets, but stopped them because he couldn't tolerate the side effects. So his mental illness was full-blown. However, the more I posted with him, the more he seemed to have constructed a decent life for himself, in his own little world. He read widely, he gardened, and structured his life so that he could be functional within his universe. I finally ended up congratulating him. Yet, at the end of the thread, I doubt that my advice made a particle of difference to him.

Moog, I think you overstate the problems of modern astrology-- which is often (mis-)named modern psychological astrology. I don't believe for a moment that people can change their lives through positive thinking in an instant. What I might urge someone to do is to take small baby-steps in the direction of a more empowering chart interpretation. Each hard-won step gives the person who takes it just a little more confidence and a little more sense of autonomy.

Hopelessness is never given by a horoscope. Any given planet in a sign, house, or aspect (terms, faces, what-have-you) has multiple interpretations. People can substitute more empowering interpretations of a given placement for disempowering interpretions. However this may take some effort to move out of their comfort zone.

Which brings me back full circle to mental disorders. Possibly without the intervention of therapy or medication the person's biochemistry or neurological nature disallows a strategy that a mentally healthy person could undertake.
 
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DebbieMarie54

Well-known member
I agree with you Waybread that we have to tread lightly.

Fact is people who are already unstable probably won't be able to tolerate the blunt truth. Why shake their foundation any further?

It takes a fairly mature person to accept the final outcome of a reading. Even the toughest among us sometimes have to take a moment to adjust to what we hear.

I gave a reading about two months ago to a young lady in her twenties. I saw her year was going to be very up and down. She was going to have some tough times especially in the fall. I began as I usually do with any natal chart reading: I gave her a brief summary of what I saw in her past. I told her I could see she did not feel loved as a child. The young woman brust into tears.

I knew I was going to need to be truthful, gentle, clever, gracious, and tactful with the remainder of the reading. This woman was obviously very fragile, and I needed to honor and respect where she was.

DebbieMarie




You may have a diagnosed mental or neurological disorder affecting your thoughts, be a mental health professional, have a family member or friend with a mental illness, or otherwise be willing to join the discussion!

How do you communicate the horoscope (or how should an astrologer communicate the horoscope) to a person with a mental illness?

I am skating on very thin ice here, but after reading a few thousand charts for people, I've come to believe that the horoscope can't be interpreted in the same way as to a person without a mental disorder. Of course, there is the obvious, common-sense approach: don't suggest that a native who is suicidal put herself in harm's way or be overly harsh with her.

But there are other issues as well, in that defensiveness, hostility, or victimhood may be part of the coping strategies the person has developed to navigate through a difficult life. Thus someone who asks for a chart reading may be bringing many more issues to the reading than the astrologer would normally anticipate.

I attach no stigma to mental illness. If a person broke a leg or caught pneumonia, these physical illnesses are comparable to a person who is depressed or bipolar. This isn't just my opinion: it's the law in Canada (where I live,) which prohibits discrimination on the basis of health/ability. In Canadian law, an employer (for example) cannot discriminate against a person in a wheelchair-- or against a person with diagnosed Tourette syndrome-- and must make accommodation for both in the workplace, provided they are able to do the basic requirements of the job.

The definition of "neuro-normal" behaviour is constantly shifting.

Your thoughts on this topic are welcome!
 
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