Using traditional rulers for the birth of a child

Could someone help delineate a chart with me. I am trying to apply necessary lords to the houses that identify the child being induced to be born, many signs point to the child not being able to be born, am I wrong. I hope I am.

Here is the chart: When will the baby be born, are there complications? The Mother is waiting, the baby was due 10 days ago. The doctor's wish the last I heard was to induce labor by Cesarean. Am I wrong in what I see here, (Scorpio new deg. on the 5th, the Moon rules the Ascendant and the babe, but Mars of the 5th is in the 8th {traditional parturition energy (?) with traditional Pluto one of the main energizers and timing elements involved to birth?). Is the baby in danger-alive (hoping and praying it is), and or has the baby already been born today or will it be tomorrow? I am not getting too much information from the individual who has the concern. Thank you in advance

Student of Astrology

Would anyone like to contribute? Hello?!
Chart is radical; Cancer rises with the Moon hour, Mars day.

Student of Astrology

Who is the asc? Did you ask the question? Then mother is Dsc?

Thank you Kalinka,

am open for several techniques but most often I use Lily rulings, using the 1st house for the babe, I asked the question, (5th house lord is Mars w/depositor Sun conj. the 11th cusp, intercepted in Aries-{personal physical} Cesarean operation is being held back.

Using Jupiter (Pisces on the M.C.) & Moon {women's concerns-Mother..co/ Moon, Lord of the 10th house).

I am concerned about timing in the chart and think I see trouble for the Babe and the Mother under the influence of the doctor (7th). Surgery is the 8th lord with Mars dignified within. What the doctor can ultimately do for them both is the 10th.

Pluto is parturition..

Thank you again

i don't understand.who asked the question? is you(third party question) or the mother?and specify whether the exact question is: "When will the baby be born, are there complications? "
in case this is your question also specify your connection to the mother (for example is she a friend of yours, a relative? etc)

in the chart is written:when will the facebook baby will be born.Did you see another chart in a facebook group and you cast a new chart asking about this birth?is this the initial chart of the mother?
if you asked this question as you said previously why did you use the radix 5th? is this your baby?the baby belongs to his mother, not to you.
please upload the initial chart of the mother, in case she has posted another chart

Thank you for your time and energy but never mind, I can see we agree to 'dis'
agree already, your Astrology is not of my understanding, that it is right to air dissertations on a public forum with the aim to discredit, sorry I asked. Not to be rude...just saying...50 years of research behind me does not include haggling, to waste your time...or mine. Thank you

Student of Astrology

The thing is, that we just wanted to clarify first-who asked the question, which house to use for the mother and the child. (This means, what relationship you have to the mother). So we can't help you if it is not clear. That u are using another method is not the problem, but I thought you need answers and it does not matter which method to use. I did not know that Lily used the Asc for the child, I thought he used the moon as natural significator for a baby.

Student of Astrology said:

Thank you for your time and energy but never mind, I can see we agree to 'dis'
agree already, your Astrology is not of my understanding, that it is right to air dissertations on a public forum with the aim to discredit, sorry I asked. Not to be rude...just saying...50 years of research behind me does not include haggling, to waste your time...or mine. Thank you

Student of Astrology

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i am sorry Student of Astrology but still i don't understand.
who spoke about agreement or disagreement? I simply asked whether this is a third party question or not and kindly asked you to give us more information about this chart.
Did i offend you somehow by asking you to clarify who asked?

kalinka said:

The thing is, that we just wanted to clarify first-who asked the question, which house to use for the mother and the child. (This means, what relationship you have to the mother). So we can't help you if it is not clear. That u are using another method is not the problem, but I thought you need answers and it does not matter which method to use. I did not know that Lily used the Asc for the child, I thought he used the moon as natural significator for a baby.

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kalinka he doesn't .if you see on christian astrology Lilly clarifies what happens when the one who asks in uknown to the mother of the baby...the mother is 7th,otherwise why should he mention the child(5th) being in the 7th? (in mother's body)p:228.There's always a problem when someone tries to read Lilly and he isn't familiar to the language or his overall way or writing.A baby belongs to his mother always, is in his mother's body.Horary is strictly contextual and we cant treat the pregnancy-child unrelated to the mother .
EX:if i ask when will my wife get pregnant-give birth etc .. my wife is 7th and the child which is in her body (belongs to her) is her turned 5th...THE SAME WHEN I ASK..when will x(where x my patient or a woman unrelated to me) will give birth....The time however in such charts is given by many factors which have to be examined (as an example: the relative sigs in this case radix 7th and 11th may aspect mars-the operation- regardless whether we are speaking of a Cesarean section or not,...etc there are always testimonies but have to be judged accordingly)

I really tried to understand your analysis but it's not that comprehensible for me. You use the asc for the child but in the next sentence you write about the 5th house ruler.

Aria Venue said:

kalinka he doesn't .if you see on christian astrology Lilly clarifies what happens when the one who asks in uknown to the mother of the baby...the mother is 7th,otherwise why should he mention the child(5th) being in the 7th? (in mother's body)p:228.There's always a problem when someone tries to read Lilly and he isn't familiar to the language or his overall way or writing.A baby belongs to his mother always, is in his mother's body.Horary is strictly contextual and we cant treat the pregnancy-child unrelated to the mother .
EX:if i ask when will my wife get pregnant-get birth etc .. my wife is 7th and the child which is in her body (belongs to her) is her turned 5th...THE SAME WHEN I ASK..when will x(where x my patient or a woman unrelated to me) will give birth....The time however in such charts is given by many factors which have to be examined (as an example: the relative sigs in this case radix 7th and 11th may aspect mars-the operation- regardless whether we are speaking of a Cesarean section or not..etc)

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yes. that is why i am confused. This is the first time someone uses the asc for the child, though he clarified that he is the querent.

Noo...you can use the 1st house for someone you are asking about..Lily. Sorry but I just couldn't let this conversation go...but I must tell you I am not good at arguing the point. Lily states, when you are asking a question about an unknown, you may use the 7th or the 1st, depending about the familiarity and the amount of consideration one has for his Christian guest. Have seen it argued over and over again on this site and many others, but I keep coming back to Lily's interpretation of just what is paramount is the concern and what the radical proofing position one must take in a question like the one above. The question is, when will the baby be born. The Moon rules all unborn children under the age of 5, the Mother of the child is the natural 10th house lord(s), and Saturn as one of authority, being the lord of the natural 10th.

Doctors are ruled of the 7th, and surgery is an 8th house (Mars of Scorpio) disposition. Pluto is the higher octave of the Moon and the Moon's distance away from her higher octave Pluto (8th house has something to do with parturition) could be the timing, either when labor will be induced, or a natural birth will occur.

The Mother of the baby has been already waiting 10 days, the baby is 10 day overdue, and hence I asked this question for the baby's concern. I am afraid my reading speaks of the demise of the child, and I was hoping for another viewpt.

Thank you for clarifying your positions, I really don't wish to offend, but it seems I have been in this position before and I don't wish to belabor a conversation that may turn into a free for all defugalty. Much too old for that and stuck in my ways, but, am willing to glean the pearls of wisdom you other experts possess by adding your insight, be it positive, and I have an open mind...LOL mind you now.

Sincerely
Student of Astrology

thanks for the clarification and the detailed explanation Is there any update?
I am using the asc for the querent and seems the mother is an unknown for u, so she gets the 7th house and her child the turned 5th.
Saturn is strong.L5 Venus is in the 5th house in gemini, peregrine but accidental strong. Mercury translates the light from Saturn to Venus. Mercury is the 10th and 6th house (for surgery-I don't use the 8th) ruler of the mother and at the same time the 6th house of the child in Aries (rulership of Mars), which is an indication for C-section. Saturn and Venus are in mixed mutual reception (face and triplicity). Mercury/Venus aspect in 3-4 Degree (days or hours?). Child's 8th house (house of death) ruler is Jupiter. No aspect between Jupiter and Venus. There might be some troubles but I don't think the child is in danger. But Venus/Saturn trine was about 8 Degrees ago. Maybe the child was already born before u casted the chart.
If we use Moon and Jupiter, we see this conjunction in 3 Degrees.However Pluto and Sun give me worries. Moon squares the Sun first and later Sun squares to Jupiter. Sun is the mother's 6th and 5th ruler (if we use her as 10th house ruler) and also placed in Aries. Could be just an indicator of c-section,too but Jupiter and Moon are debilated in Saturn's rulership and conspicuous is that Moon is in Jupiter's fall and Jupiter in Moon's detriment. Saturn and Sun are much stronger than Jupiter and Moon. Child's 8th house ruler is also Saturn...seems that this second scenario might not end well.

From the 6th to the 9th c. Persian and Arab astrologers systematically translated and transformed Greek catarchic (elections and inceptions) texts into horary texts. But the point is that in inceptions the ascendant is usually given to the event itself, or to the person initiating the event, or to the missing person in focus. So, while transforming inceptions into questions, they often (but not consistently) kept the original attribution of the first house, leaving the logical process of transformation uncomplete. Lilly mindlessly rewrote this "rule:that the first house to signify the thing or person requested is found in a lot of ancient authors, not only Lilly " (as he did with many other rules he did not follow,just like with considerations before judgment,or when someone asks about a fugitive he clearly states that the unknown person to the querent is 7th, or mixing horary charts with decumbiture charts" defined simply as the chart for the time that a sick person first takes to bed" in medical questions creating enormous confusion...etc).Moreover if you see on page 228 he mentions that the woman is pregnant if the baby (5th ) is in her body (7th)
as such..event-inception chart: the moment(date-time-place) someone disappears or last seen.Horary chart : a question about this person whereabouts.Two totally different things!!! an inception chart is not an horary chart and neither is judged as such.Very often people mix these two, creating confusion.For the same reason they dont understand what's the meaning of derived houses when they ask third party questions.The quesited in such cases has the meaning of belonging.Mother asks "where is my child?" is her child so its her 5th.you ask where is this mother's child? if the mother is unknown to you then she takes the 7th and her child her derived 5th.if you cast an inception chart for the exact time of her disappearance(last seen for example) then the mother takes the asc in this event chart.if you cast a chart the moment a birth is taking place then the chart signifies the event itself.The birth and so forth...Don't mix horary and inception charts!!!!!
*Inception charts
inception charts are simply charts cast for the moment that something begins, they can be applied to anything that has a definite beginning(can by applied to a wide variety of different ventures, undertakings and entities, including things such as:Founding a city-Marriage-Starting a company...etc ).There is also some overlap between inception charts and electional astrology, since electional astrology is simply the proactive use of astrology to deliberately choose an auspicious inception chart in advance.http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...arche-of-Horary.pdf+&cd=2&hl=el&ct=clnk&gl=gr

So since my dear Student of Astrology you are beginning to read traditional sources, since your astrological knowledge and background is clearly based on modern astrology, you must pay special attention on such topics and please try not to mix modern theories misquoting traditional sources, or topics as the 8th house of death with surgery.Mars rules surgeons and surgery (as a natural significator )and if is taken from the chart we use the 6th house ruler (house of disease-hospitals)or even the part of surgery.8th house traditionally is related to death and once more the planet related to 8th is saturn(natural ruler of death) The classical order of the planets is:Saturn (1st)Jupiter (2nd)Mars (3rd)Sun (4th)Venus (5th)Mercury (6th)Moon (7th).This is presented in the picture of the traditional order of the cosmos. Aries-rising zodiac is with regard to signification of body parts.Nicholas Culpeper, famous physician warned against equating the signs beginning with Aries with the order of the Houses.as such in medical chart aries/1st rules the head...and 8th/scorpio rules the anus. organs of excretion. Astrological symbolism describes the body through the houses, the planets and the signs. Signs and houses refer to body parts in a purely anatomical way.Thus, modern astrology is wrong is assigning the rulers of the signs as also rulers of the houses.
So saying things such as: "surgery is an 8th house (Mars of Scorpio) disposition. Pluto is the higher octave of the Moon and the Moon's distance away from her higher octave Pluto (8th house has something to do with parturition) could be the timing, either when labor will be induced, or a natural birth will occur." isn't by no means clarification and detailed explanation of traditional horary, neither of lilly's quotes.

Dear Aria Venue

...just had to laugh a bit, sorry, I guess I will stick to interrogations or inceptions at the moment..as best I am able until something better comes along (?) 'katarche' every time...and you, dearest? Thanks for the read a good spell it took, was worth it. Do carry on..

Sincerely
Student of Astrology

Facebook baby was birthed naturally, no worries no problems. Mother didn't have to have a Cesarean.

17: 03 hours on April 16th 2020

Am very happy to be wrong about the chart and it's worries.

Thank you Aria Venue Kalinka

Post Script: Here is the original chart that was posted on Facebook.

Did the mother cast that chart? Why u did not post the original chart but casted your own?

Hello Kalinka,

Originally the Mother asked a lady named Celina on facebook whom is an Astrologer/Tarot Card Reader and teacher of many of the occult arts the question, 'When will the baby come?' I thought I had seen something in the original chart that was worrisome and wished to clarify my own thoughts about the babies condition, so drew up another chart after some other 'new' information came into the light just to make sure I was on track to clarify the possible date of birth, expectation.

The chart is radical and so I posted it with the same question, When will the baby be born? In the back of my mind I had thought I had seen trouble on the horizon that was soon to arrive, a Cesarean birth, it turned out I was wrong, better wrong than some trouble.

Sincerely
Student of Astrology

Student of Astrology said:

Noo...you can use the 1st house for someone you are asking about..Lily. Sorry but I just couldn't let this conversation go...but I must tell you I am not good at arguing the point. Lily states, when you are asking a question about an unknown, you may use the 7th or the 1st, depending about the familiarity and the amount of consideration one has for his Christian guest. Have seen it argued over and over again on this site and many others, but I keep coming back to Lily's interpretation of just what is paramount is the concern and what the radical proofing position one must take in a question like the one above. The question is, when will the baby be born. The Moon rules all unborn children under the age of 5, the Mother of the child is the natural 10th house lord(s), and Saturn as one of authority, being the lord of the natural 10th.

Doctors are ruled of the 7th, and surgery is an 8th house (Mars of Scorpio) disposition. Pluto is the higher octave of the Moon and the Moon's distance away from her higher octave Pluto (8th house has something to do with parturition) could be the timing, either when labor will be induced, or a natural birth will occur.

The Mother of the baby has been already waiting 10 days, the baby is 10 day overdue, and hence I asked this question for the baby's concern. I am afraid my reading speaks of the demise of the child, and I was hoping for another viewpt.

Thank you for clarifying your positions, I really don't wish to offend, but it seems I have been in this position before and I don't wish to belabor a conversation that may turn into a free for all defugalty. Much too old for that and stuck in my ways, but, am willing to glean the pearls of wisdom you other experts possess by adding your insight, be it positive, and I have an open mind...LOL mind you now.

Sincerely
Student of Astrology

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perhaps inspired originally by
Charlie Obert aka student of astrology.
learning resources from study groups traditional info useful for horary
https://studentofastrology.com/

I'm not a fan of casting second charts for the same question. The first one is always the most reliable. But to be honest, i can't see the correct birth time in the original chart (maybe some others can). So I checked the two charts with Kp system (same data, only different zodiac, house system and technique). And the birth date is accurately seen from the original chart, even the exact hour! But not with the second chart you casted... What I want to say is that the second one might be not valid.