Chiron in Libra

As some of you know, I am very interested in Chiron - chiefly natally, but also in transit. Some Chiron placements remain elusive to me, and I suspect that this has something to say about me, rather than anything to do with the astrology. It took me forever to fully understand Chiron in Aquarius, and now I feel that I have a good grasp of it, and this is chiefly as a result of a lot of reading, but even more observation of those souls born between early 1955 and early 1961. The new group of Ch in Aqua souls are being born as I write this. My grandson is one of these, so I feel I had to internalise this knowledge in order to observe his journey without fearing for him.

Now, my focus is upon those born with Chiron in Libra:

• late 1944 - late 1946
• Sep`95 - Sep`97

Now, the latest batch of these souls are still very young, and their expression of this energy will not yet be fully formed, although they may be experiencing some early wounding. The earlier group from the 1940's are interesting to me, and I would like to hear from any who have this Chiron placement, or who maybe have parents with this placement.

Martin Lass describes this placement as the wound of feeling separate (and in this description it is not so different from Ch in Aqua), and so desiring `another' to form partnership, but chiefly as a mirror of oneself.

Now, on a couple of threads a month or so ago I mentioned my next eldest brother who was a real nightmare as a child - abusive, aggressive, unruly, probably highly ADHD - but he is now very calm (and I suspect has simply shut down). He has natal Chiron in Libra only 0 degr 06' in Libra. He once told me that if his wife died or left him he'd just have to find another partner straight away. Now, I just didn't `get' that, but I feel it is his expression of Ch in Libra. Also, his wife of almost 40 years is a real head-case - difficult, aggressive, changeable - a grown-up version of what my brother was like as a child, and so she seems to be his `mirror'. Barbara Hand Clow in her book on Chiron describes this as:
"Understanding of the self is gathered by looking at oneself in the mirror which is offered by other people."

Now, that makes perfect sense to me - BUT -
Does this mean that Chiron in Libra people can only see themselves through another?
(My brother does not see his wife as `difficult' or `strange' or having some sort of personality disorder, as the rest of the world seem to. To him she is perfectly normal.)

Any feedback/anecdotes/ideas would be appreciated. I do not know enough people with this placement to form a clear and objective idea of it.

I very much like your attempts at researching Chirons placements in signs. Unfortunately I cannot help you here. Mine is in Scorpio, so I have to wait for that one! The only reference I have is from Richard Nolle's "Astrological Services". Now I would guess that indeed a Chiron in the 7th implies "wounding" through interaction with others, or maybe healing your own wound through relationships (he seems to have calmed down when he found his wife right? or was it before?)

Nolle says: "for the native with Ch in Libra, to understand oneself, is to comprehend one's impact on others. Harmony itself fascinates these people (so I guess that is why your brother thinks of immediately finding another partner when his actual partner should not be there anymore. I think he can only live in harmony with himself when he is with a partner maybe). Nolle sees Chiron as our quest in life and Chiron in Libra seeks self-fulfillment in the area of creating shared harmony. That's why he finds it very strange that Libra, as well as Virgo by the way, are one of the rarest Chiron signs, because Ch spends so little of each orbit in this sector of the zodiac. (did you know that? I didn't!) . He finds it a "significant irony" that this Libra Chiron, , by a process of natural selection, is the most uncommon type of human being.
I also wonder if this could be the reason why in this world finding peace and harmony seems to be so difficult.

Now why does he not see his wife's unpleasant nature, similar to whom he was before? I guess it is because first of all he did not acknowledge himself an impossible child (I had a brother like that, probably due to the fact that he was highly intelligent and quickly bored by everything, needing challenges) and it is a "familiar" thing to him alone. He thinks it is normal because he recognises his own nature in her.

Another possibility: any Neptunic influences to the 7th house or ruler?

My sister (born in 1946) had several "bad-boy" partners before finally settling down with her current "good-man" husband......At the time, she could never see their faults (despite them being obvious to others)......but she can see them clearly now.

Martin Lass - Book One - Table of Contents -

4Raven, maybe this could assist you?

Would not those born in that generation be kind of like the first generation that was less conservative and more hippy??? You know....the change from the 50s to the 60s.....or am I way off? All I can think of is they would not have being old enough to remember WWII but those who came before them would have....

EJ53 said:

My sister (born in 1946) had several "bad-boy" partners before finally settling down with her current "good-man" husband......At the time, she could never see their faults (despite them being obvious to others)......but she can see them clearly now.

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Actually, EJ, thanks for that. This seems to be a pattern with women with this placement.

Starlink, thanks for your reply. I was not looking to understand my brother's wife-choice more, as I feel that I have sorted that out - but only after looking into Chiron in Libra. The rest of my siblings and me could not work out why, after he had had girlfriends from an early age, and pretty much all of them helped him to lift himself out of his crazy and self-destructive behaviour, he then settled on what we have referred to as `the crazy one'. (And I was the one who introduced them..... what was I thinking???) I suspect that he sees her as `normal' because he has never ever seen his own childhood/adolescent behaviour through the eyes of others, and perhaps considers himself the victim of a kind of `family conspiracy'. But I digress.

I have Barbara Hand Clow's and Martin Lass's work on Chiron, but I learn this stuff better by absorbing it from the world around me, so I am interested in anything anecdotal. I realise that Chiron in Libra is a difficult one, given that I don't think any of the regulars on the forum were born with this Chiron placement, so getting someone's personal experience of it may be difficult. I like to observe how it works in my own environment, but I have so little contact with Chiron in Libra people.

And noideaaboutastro, the Chiron in Libra generation of whom I speak were born right at the end of WW2. There are other factors - generally Pluto and Neptune placements - which generationally describe what you mention.

R4VEN said:

...I have Barbara Hand Clow's and Martin Lass's work on Chiron, but I learn this stuff better by absorbing it from the world around me, so I am interested in anything anecdotal. I realise that Chiron in Libra is a difficult one, given that I don't think any of the regulars on the forum were born with this Chiron placement, so getting someone's personal experience of it may be difficult. I like to observe how it works in my own environment, but I have so little contact with Chiron in Libra people.

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My (1946 born) sister was very much part of an "in-crowd" which seemed to consist almost exclusively of those in her school year and those up to two school years older (1944-1946 Libra Chirons?)......Boys tended to be at the older end of the group; girls at the younger end and all were "hetrosexually coupled" with another member......So, they were a group of like-minded couples who saw themselves socially as a "family".....at a time when most of these "families"/gangs were at war with each other (during the tail-end of the UK era of "teddy boys").

My recollection is that the boys in these gangs certainly fitted the description of different, aggressive and wholly unpredictable......happily dancing with their female partners one minute and equally happily trying to hospitalise a male member of another gang the next......whilst younger males (like me) could always expect a good thumping (or a spell of sadistic torture) if we happened to be in the vicinity at a time when a gang was bored, or found themselves looking for something/someone to do......[Tears of nostalgia are welling in my eyes just from remembering those carefree days of my childhood].

Were they groups who saw themselves through the mirror of others?......I think yes, identifying with the qualities they liked in themselves (via their own gang members) and denying the qualities they disliked in themselves (via members of other gangs)......But what struck me most, was that all of them dressed and behaved exactly the same in order to demonstrate to the rest of society that "they were different"......And, almost all of them went on eventually to settle down as loving fathers and mothers who are appalled to-day by the anti-social behaviour of youngsters.

EJ

EJ53 said:

Were they groups who saw themselves through the mirror of others?......I think yes, identifying with the qualities they liked in themselves (via their own gang members) and denying the qualities they disliked in themselves (via members of other gangs)......But what struck me most, was that all of them dressed and behaved exactly the same in order to demonstrate to the rest of society that "they were different"......And, almost all of them went on eventually to settle down as loving fathers and mothers who are appalled to-day by the anti-social behaviour of youngsters.

EJ

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Thanks for that, EJ The Chiron in Libra generation began mid Nov 1944.

Your post above had me wandering down Memory Lane. I can remember my mother pointing out to aunties, etc, how that particular brother had `so many friends'. And he did. He seemed to form masses of friendships wherever he went - scouts, sporting events, days out with family. My brother had Libra on his 7th house cusp, so the relationship-factor was doubly significant for him. Many of his friends were born in 1946 - a year after his birth, and with Chiron in Libra - and they were particularly tribal in behaviour.

One incident in particular which remains etched in my memory was when my brother and his best mate were conducting a `war', where each were on opposing sides. We were down creek at the back of our farm, so away from the eyes and ears of adults. Each boy (aged around 12-13) threw rocks and clods of dirt at the other - accompanied by whooping war-cries - until my brother collected his mate in the skull with a hard rock the size of a cricket ball, and the other boy began to cry. My brother also began to cry, then hugged his friend and apologised, and they then made up their friendship. (I was, on the other hand, very disappointed, as my MSN in Scorpio was baying for blood, or at the very least, humiliation!!) I suspect that my brother had been throwing rocks at himself, and seeing his mate's response, perhaps began to develop some self-awareness at a conscious level.

Thanks EJ. I had not even considered those childhood relationships to be significant, but obviously they were a significant part of the whole Chiron in Libra experience.

I'm also curious about the `outsiders' who have Chiron in Libra. At a surface level, I suspect that like Chiron in Aquarius, Chiron in Libra just wants to belong. Like - there must be those with this Chiron placement who have chosen to live in isolation. Someone with Ch in Libra in the 10th may be drawn to an isolated lifestyle.

R4VEN said:

And noideaaboutastro, the Chiron in Libra generation of whom I speak were born right at the end of WW2. There are other factors - generally Pluto and Neptune placements - which generationally describe what you mention.

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Yes they were R4VEN but they would not have being old enough to remember anything from that war unlike the rest of the generations, so it still fits.
What Pluto and Neptune placements are you speaking of? I am just curious.

noideaaboutastro said:

Yes they were R4VEN but they would not have being old enough to remember anything from that war unlike the rest of the generations, so it still fits.
What Pluto and Neptune placements are you speaking of? I am just curious.

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Around a year ago there was a thread on this, but I can't remember the title, or even the section it was in. EJ53 contributed a lot to the thread, so he may remember????????????????

Just briefly tho - Those born with Neptune in Libra - between 1942-43 and 1955-57 became the hippies and anti-war campaigners of the 60's and 70's. For them it was about Neptune - dreams and aspirations - in Libra - war-no-more, and as this generation reached early adulthood they became vocal and political, as well as very public = Pluto in Leo.

Chiron placements - which are obviously generational - being about wounding, they are rarely actually `seen' being acted out by each generation in the same way a Pluto or a Neptune generational placement usually is.

I hope this makes sense..........................

I think I had a mini-epiphany yesterday..................

There I'd been, worrying that I didn't understand Chiron in Libra - had not internalised it enough to be able to feel confident about it................. and I think my answer is that it's just not that difficult. There is no underlying trick/hidden compartment/sleight of hand. Perhaps all it is is what I described in Post #1!!!!!!!

Thanks to those who have posted. As starlink mentioned earlier, the Chiron in Libra generation are born over a very short period of time - compared with - say - Chiron in Pisces or Aries, each of which lasts for 8-9 years. (This is due to the elliptical orbit of Chiron.) Examining the behaviour of this group of people has been difficult in part due to this.

Now I have Chiron in Libra in the 8th and I have always felt lonely and separate even as a child. I didnt like being touched really by anyone.
I have an enormous fear of love and intimacy and have never married. But that may be my Moon square PLuto in Leo.

The only aspect I have is to the North Node in Gemini and it has enable me to learn and study the 8th house subjects and give advice to others with relationship problems but I cant heal my own. Is that not the nature of Chiron?? I am skeptical of this celestial body as no one can agree whether it is a comet, asteroid or whatever. SO I dont place too much importance on it. As for transits as I dont have aspects that are within the tight orb that Chiron would use I cant really gain much insight there either. It does sit between Venus and Jupiter so is that a loss of faith in love??? Or is that my Venus with Neptune in Libra????? I always have the fear of being obliterated and open to control by others with sexual matters and although easily seduced I tended to lose myself and that was kind of scary. Always a struggle to come back to myself from the vast cosmos....... Maybe that is the CHiron........

I also have concerns about sharing assets and and investment with monies causes concern and anxiety and I have had losses in that way so no wonder. Deception and confusion. I have an 8th house stellium but with Jupiter there well aspected I seem to be protected in a big way and land on my feet eventually.

Claire19 said:

Now I have Chiron in Libra in the 8th and I have always felt lonely and separate even as a child. I didnt like being touched really by anyone.
I have an enormous fear of love and intimacy and have never married. But that may be my Moon square PLuto in Leo.

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Yegads, Claire

Chiron in Libra and in the 8th house is a very difficult combination of energies IMO. The desire/wound of Chiron in Libra appears to be the need/requirement of a relationship(s) for the purpose of reflection back to the self - for the purpose of self-knowledge and self-acceptance. Often this is a confronting exercise in itself.
But in the 8th house, Chiron becomes about fear of losing oneself in an intimate situation - loss of control, fear of manipulation, fear of mini-death, fear of loss of control over one's own finances, plus all the other 8th house issues. There is a desire to `dig deep' but perhaps not necessarily to share this with another - where knowledge=power, and to share knowledge with an intimate may be seen as a loss of personal power. My oldest son has Chiron in Aries in the 8th; he once said to me something like: I reckon relationships suck. All women want men for is their money. He remains single, and probably always will be.
I had a discussion once with katydid about Chiron in the 8th - which she also has - and she also said about having an enduring interest in that boundary between life and death.

As I read it, Chiron in Libra would have the most difficulty in the 8th house for the reasons I state above. The fear of `losing oneself' in a relationship would just be too overwhelming, and the perceived risks too great.

Claire19 said:

The only aspect I have is to the North Node in Gemini and it has enable me to learn and study the 8th house subjects and give advice to others with relationship problems but I cant heal my own. Is that not the nature of Chiron??

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Sounds like a perfect `use' of the wounding to me.

Claire19 said:

I am skeptical of this celestial body as no one can agree whether it is a comet, asteroid or whatever. SO I dont place too much importance on it.

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I have noted that already on the many threads where you have stated this.
On the other hand, given my own slant and use of astrology, it is a fundamental part of the chart.

Claire19 said:

It does sit between Venus and Jupiter so is that a loss of faith in love??? Or is that my Venus in Neptune in Libra?????

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Possibly.
Without seeing your chart it's hard to say.

[And thank you for your post. This has been an interesting exercise for me!!]

I am skeptical of this celestial body as no one can agree whether it is a comet, asteroid or whatever.

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Hi Claire, yes, I understand what you mean. So did I actually and I still have a problem in finding how a certain person can heal another person via their own wounds. I agree with R4ven, that Chiron in Libra in 8 very clearly shows what you feel when it comes to relationships. I use to look more at Chiron in the houses, but it is quite similar to Chiron in sign really. A Chiron in the 7th can give the same fears in relationships, but then we have to combine it with the sign energy.

I have for instance my Chiron in Scorpio (also a bit 8th housy) in the 12th house. I just cannot put this placement into words. I have a wound which I cannot heal which lies somewhere in my unconscious or which I brought into this life from another life (12th house) but then, how can I "heal" others with this as I dont know the real wound? My wound is hidden and very deep. I have great trouble in figuring this one out. Still need a lot more info on Chiron...
I am totally happy with being alone, I prefer to be alone, but I never feel lonely. I do feel different from others though, I just dont seem to totally connect, like a glass plate stands between them and myself.

starlink said:

A Chiron in the 7th can give the same fears in relationships, but then we have to combine it with the sign energy.

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I just had to pick up on this one, starlink............................
As I have observed it in people, Chiron in the 8th may deliver all kinds of fears in relation to `losing' oneself in a relationship of intimacy, but those with Chiron in the 7th tend to dive into relationships head-first, almost as though they know that this is to be the forum for a significant part of their own life's work. (My closest friend has Chiron in Scorpio in the 7th. Her husbands - 4 so far, although she declares there will never be more!! - have all been very wounding for her, but she has been very optimistic each time she'd begin a new relationship.) Chiron in Scorpio describes the wound of perceiving oneself as being manipulated or controlled - by other people, or even by systems in which one lives or works.

starlink said:

how can I "heal" others with this as I dont know the real wound?

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This is the paradox of Chiron, and I suspect that it is the reason I keep digging away at it. It is the mysterious nature of it all which attracts me.

It seems that you have no need to (consciously) identify your own wounding. It is likely that you have been plugging away at the `work' regardless of whether you consciously know about it or not. This can even be done in childhood. 07.Re told me about her 9-year-old son, himself with Chiron in Sag in the 12th. She said that he seems to `pick up' on the pain and hurt others experience in his presence, and will comfort another child when he perceives they have need of comfort or reassurance. 12th house Chiron people tend to be very empathic.

The `work' of Chiron is sometimes best done unconsciously, because from this place we can't force, control or manipulate our responses to it. Sometimes the conscious mind is an obstacle, rather than an aid.

noideaaboutastro said:

Would not those born in that generation be kind of like the first generation that was less conservative and more hippy??? You know....the change from the 50s to the 60s.....or am I way off? All I can think of is they would not have being old enough to remember WWII but those who came before them would have....

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As the first of the baby boomers with Chiron in Libra I agree that we were more hippy like and drugs, sex and rock and roll. But we also have Neptune in Libra and Pluto in Leo and all that contributed to the differences in attitudes and lifestyles. Free love etc. Rock on!!!

The `work' of Chiron is sometimes best done unconsciously, because from this place we can't force, control or manipulate our responses to it. Sometimes the conscious mind is an obstacle, rather than an aid.

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Thanks R4ven for you answer. Yes, I think you are very right!!

It seems that you have no need to (consciously) identify your own wounding

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This sounds very true, good explanation.

*Message deleted*

I have CHiron in Libra and dont subscribe to transitting Chiron at all. If it hits a major planet that Chiron already is in contact with natally , then maybe. The orb has to be small, no more than 2 degrees. Chiron is not a planet, it could even be a comet or an asteroid. I have only an aspect to the north node with it and so I am by no means expert.....It is one of many placements in my 8th house.....

Hello R4VEN

I realise your message is several years old, but I was drawn to the fact you have a particular interest in Chiron's natal placement. I was born in London, England on Monday October 7, 1946 at around 07.50hrs. At that time Chiron (and Mercury) sat in Libra in the 12th House. Suffice it to say it has taken me more than 60 years to begin to understand that Chiron has played a significant role in the challenges I have faced ... and boy have I endured a crock full of challenges! As you will see from my natal chart, I am an open book - I have nothing to hide - so if you'd like more detail on how Chiron has impacted on my life, thus far, please feel free to contact me. Kind regards DavidL