Black Moon Lilith Orb

I am working on the chart of a friend, and struggling with Black Moon Lilith. There is little material available, including on orb of influence. The website I use displays BML and her aspects, but I have noted that my friends' Mercury is 3.5 degrees away from BML, but there is no conjunction listed in the aspect list. I do not want to miss including something as important as a conjunction here, so my question is, what is the effective orb of BML, and does a 3.5 degree difference qualify as a conjunction in this chart?

ScorpArcher said:

I am working on the chart of a friend, and struggling with Black Moon Lilith. There is little material available, including on orb of influence. The website I use displays BML and her aspects, but I have noted that my friends' Mercury is 3.5 degrees away from BML, but there is no conjunction listed in the aspect list. I do not want to miss including something as important as a conjunction here, so my question is, what is the effective orb of BML, and does a 3.5 degree difference qualify as a conjunction in this chart?

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Since the art of Astrology at it's core is an Art and not a Science, I'd say go with what "feels right" for you, especially as you glance at the entire chart. You may traits if you think you know the person, or even in celebrities whose lives are out there for all to look at.



Here is the chart for one celerity who has her BML in 22nd deg. of Aquarius. The "live free sign" who is also thought of as a sign of friendships with benefits?


Lilith is known for tripping us up in life, as it is a mostly unconscious place in our natal charts and many astro sites doesn't even show it on their charts like this one: (however, another site that does, gives her a 22nd degree Aquarius.


It appears only in the graph as to position in the charts.



https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Kardashian,_Kim


https://nypost.com/2021/11/03/are-pete-davidson-kim-kardashian-compatible-what-zodiac-says/

When we check her chart -against the known events so far in her very publicized life (her TV shows, her many appearances, bf's and even husbands (2 or 3?) With a battle over the kids now with the latest ex.


Clicking the chart image to blow it up, we can see on the graph her 22nd deg (a critical degree for self-undoing)

The BML for her, is also semi-square Mars the only close aspect it makes along with Pluto. From the 11th again,of friendships - (hopes & dreams)
These two planets are very tight in orb for their aspects to the BML and the connections it makes (i.e. Pluto almost exact cj.) while a sextile to Neptune seems to point to her appearance of "vulnerability" which defies her true nature of strength and going after (Pluto close cj) what he desires, be it men or money with an eye of sex sells which the entire K family knows about.


IF we allow for a 3 degree (or so, I am not that picky), aspect however, from BML's 22nd deg.AQ - to her Uranus and even Mercury, we might see and confirm for her, that the estrangement she's created by divorcing the man of her "dreams" Ye West, would trip her up which indeed so far it seems to have done. Others who are people (celebrity) watchers might disagree, but the BLM is seldom if ever making it's known for those who watch and wait...Yet it "lurks" in dark shadow until the time you are forced to face it's string.


So, we might too be content with the 2 aspects drawn in by astro.com, but as for me, I'd add the 2 missing ones to,, nearer 3 deg. orb.



(dark shadows analogy?) see "Lilith Insight" by Mae Wilson Ludlam



https://allfamous.org/astrology/kim-kardashian-19801021.html

note: added is Kim K's natal chart I spoke of above.


When I lost my youngest daughter years ago, Tr BML was over my natal 6th house BML within less then one degree. For her children, their charts also registered, with Tr BML cj. their DSC cusp, and opposed their ASC and 12th house natal BML. Same with them, the transit as with me, was a tight orb transit.


Lilith also has the nickname of "baby snatcher"



https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Kardashian,_Kim

ScorpArcher said:

I am working on the chart of a friend, and struggling with Black Moon Lilith. There is little material available, including on orb of influence. The website I use displays BML and her aspects, but I have noted that my friends' Mercury is 3.5 degrees away from BML, but there is no conjunction listed in the aspect list. I do not want to miss including something as important as a conjunction here, so my question is, what is the effective orb of BML, and does a 3.5 degree difference qualify as a conjunction in this chart?

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Thanks again, for bringing up the BML...(I'm assuming its the point and opponent of our Moon to whom you refer? and not the asteroid)



I have two of these books, sitting for some time now, at least a decade and every now and then someone starts the topic of the Black Moon and I invariably reach for Mae Ludlam's book here. Somewhere I have Hunters, but I didn't know Ivy Goldstine also wrote about the BML.


I'll need to look her book up:


https://www.amazon.com/Lilith-Insight-Light-Dark-Moon/dp/086690347X

leomoon said:

Thanks again, for bringing up the BML...(I'm assuming its the point and opponent of our Moon to whom you refer? and not the asteroid)



I have two of these books, sitting for some time now, at least a decade and every now and then someone starts the topic of the Black Moon and I invariably reach for Mae Ludlam's book here. Somewhere I have Hunters, but I didn't know Ivy Goldstine also wrote about the BML.


I'll need to look her book up:


https://www.amazon.com/Lilith-Insight-Light-Dark-Moon/dp/086690347X

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I have a problem with using "Black" for it. That would be a full lunar eclipse, or a completely New Moon.

What's called BML is actually the point on the Moon's elliptical orbit where it's farthest from the Earth, which could be considered "least grounded".

That's the Moon's apogee. There's a growing interest in the opposite point, the Moon's orbital perigee, where it's closest to the Earth, unfortunately being labeled "White" Selena, which is the "good" one of the two opposite points. "Black" or "White" are gratuitous in this application.

The terms "Black or White" magic, are due to a scribe's mistranslation of the intended word "necromancy" meaning evil magic associated with death, into what became a racist term, "Negromancy", from the scribe's mistaken translation.

How about "Far Moon Lilith", meaning, wild, ungrounded emotion?

And, "Close Moon Selene", meaning helpful, grounded emotion?

That would be in keeping with their astrological interpretations, without the racial undertones.

Samantha Bean said:

Of course.....no one would have any idea what you were talking about since you would be using your own private language. What are they in Klingon?

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It's called "astronomy", which too many astrologers are unfamiliar with.

Samantha, are you familiar with "White Moon Selena"?

They remind me of the opposites, NN and SN, which are also about the Moon's orbit as it relates to the Earth.

david starling said:

How about "Far Moon Lilith", meaning, wild, ungrounded emotion?

And, "Close Moon Selene", meaning helpful, grounded emotion?

That would be in keeping with their astrological interpretations, without the racial undertones.

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The "idea" of race with the BML never once crossed my mind~ I have no problem with the categorization or term.



Perhaps "dark" because like a shadow, (that is what I think of), it's always there, but we don't see it. It simply "IS".

Samantha Bean said:

Ivy Goldstine-Jacobson. Entitled: Dark Moon Lilith

The other one on DML is Delphine Jay’s book Interpreting Lilith, completed in 1981. Jay is not as down on DML as Ivy was. I understand Jay is still alive but in a facility, for dementia patients. Leigh Westin wrote a book on it, and you can find it as a PDF online. But there is nothing in it that could be used for interpreting DML. Leigh was a friend of one of Ivy’s two master Teachers, Kt Boehrer. Katie was a close friend of mine.

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So sad to hear that about her. Life goes on with or without us it seems to never miss a beat.


I found this reference online:


Diehl, Robert – Black Moon Lilith, Great Goddess


Black Moon Lilith is the energy vortex of the empty focal point in Moon’s orbit around Earth. The French astrological community has used this point extensively for a hundred years, and many European astrologers feel it is the most powerful point in the natal chart! This lecture will explore the symbolism and mythology of the Lilith archetype and the importance Black Moon Lilith has in relationship astrology, and reveal a deeper understanding of current events.

leomoon said:

The "idea" of race with the BML never once crossed my mind~ I have no problem with the categorization or term.



Perhaps "dark" because like a shadow, (that is what I think of), it's always there, but we don't see it. It simply "IS".

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What about the more recent promotion of the Moon's point of Perigee, which is being called "White Moon Selena "?

Leomoon, here's an explanation of what BML means in a chart. I hope you'll check it out, and say what you think about it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JjHOl04WdFU

"Shadow Moon Lilith" would have been SO much better. But, like Samantha says, too late now.

ScorpArcher said:

I am working on the chart of a friend, and struggling with Black Moon Lilith. There is little material available, including on orb of influence. The website I use displays BML and her aspects, but I have noted that my friends' Mercury is 3.5 degrees away from BML, but there is no conjunction listed in the aspect list. I do not want to miss including something as important as a conjunction here, so my question is, what is the effective orb of BML, and does a 3.5 degree difference qualify as a conjunction in this chart?

Click to expand...

Depending upon the website used, you could see a Black Moon Lilith glyph as , meaning the MEAN Black Moon Lilith position, or .(plus the dot), meaning the TRUE Black Moon Lilith position.

I don't work with the Waldemath Black Moon or the asteroid Lilith.
For the MEAN Black Moon Lilith, that only has a forward motion of 6 mins. of a degree per day, I use a orb. of max. 6* for the major aspects. Anything more really does seem to be out of grasp. Minor aspects need close orbs.
This Black Moon seems to have the most effect from birth to puberty.

TRUE Black Moon Lilith has a direct/retrograde motion. It has been observed to have an effect later in life, often after the Uranus opposition = mid-life crisis.

MEAN and TRUE Black Moon Lilith are calculated non-physically existent points. They can represent the images created of circumstances that never physically existed, or the inner longings and yearnings for that which does not physically exist. Yet they can also represent the natural talent lying dormant within waiting to express itself, for which have need of an aspect with a physical planet to manifest. This is important to remember when attempting to interpret their meaning with a physically existent planet.

Charts with MEAN Black Moon Lilith conjunct Mercury might show a significance of NOT expressing what one thinks about, OR giving an irreality (non-existent make-believe) to that which one does! It does not necessarily mean 'a born liar' in the negative sense.
The conjunction can imple a difficulty in openly relating to other people. I've seen its (corresponding) effects in charts of those who had no relationship with siblings OR were not informed that they existed. Half, step, or surrogate 'family' relationships were never close. There is/was a 'no bonding connection'. Mercury's mentality through whatever sign is inwardly strong and important. Marvellous for fictional creative writing, gut-feeling analytic perception, or any positive Mercurial pursuit, for example, yet not so pleasant if the inner images Black Moon Lilith can create become the reality one thinks to exist.

Aspects that Mercury makes to other planets may also present 'a channel' through which MEAN and TRUE Black Moon Liliths 'make their presence felt', without taking a physical form.

Some intitial ideas to consider?

Fris:


We spoke many times regarding the loss of my daughter and the Tr. BML cj. my P.O.F within one degree at the very end of my 5th house.
You may recall that I usually when posting about BML bring this up, because it's something I've never been able to grasp or clarify / to myself considering her own daughters who lost their mom, also had TR BML 15 deg. Sagittarius opposing their 12th house (sub-conscious?) 15 deg. natal BML. Something is up here,but I still can't make clear just what exactly.


I our cases, (twin daughters had their natal BML opposition, (exact deg.) and I had the P.O.F. conjunct. Neither of course a planet.



Yet I simply cannot dismiss this with a word like "coincidence".



Deb.

MEAN and TRUE Black Moon Lilith are calculated non-physically existent points. They can represent the images created of circumstances that never physically existed, or the inner longings and yearnings for that which does not physically exist. Yet they can also represent the natural talent lying dormant within waiting to express itself, for which have need of an aspect with a physical planet to manifest. This is important to remember when attempting to interpret their meaning with a physically existent planet.

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I did years of soul-searching over this tragedy, and kept coming back to a dream I had years before she was born. It was a friend of mine as a teenager, who married badly, she had 2 daughters ( like my own daughter had), then died tragically and young in a car accident.....She and her husband had just broken up (like my own daughter's case)


In the "series" of dreams of this old friend; one was extremely strange and stayed with me forever. I chose in real life, not to go to the funeral parlor, a wake for her, but I told a mutual friend that I was almost due having my 1st child, so she said she'd be sure to go and have the "others" go too. The others comprised about 20 other friends or near that sum. Carol (the dead girl) mom told me about it when I eventually called her. The reason I called her is because Carol asked me to in a dream. Her mother spoke with a heavy German accent, but she did tell me how many friends Carol had from that wake appearance.


The very first time I dreamt of her, I DID in effect, enter the funeral parlor, walked past dozens of weeping family and friends, went to the casket, knelt to say a prayer, and looked at her face. Her face (eyelids) started to twitch and move, and then she awakened right there in the casket. I started yelling to the onlookers who were still deeply into their own grief over this loss.
I yelled, "She's not dead, she is alive and right here with us".....then I looked at her again, and her face started to change into that of a baby....end of dream.


I always believed somehow, that dream was telling me, she would reincarnate, and very possibly she did as my youngest daughter.



The Black Moon Lilith is mostly is not ALL subconscious energy isn't it?

david starling said:

Leomoon, here's an explanation of what BML means in a chart. I hope you'll check it out, and say what you think about it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JjHOl04WdFU

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I watched it. I also see how young she is, so I took it and posted to a blog I keep going for my granddaughters mother, (my youngest daughter)....One of the twins is big into mystical arts of all kinds. She loves Tarot, Witchcraft? type of things; and even Astrology to some degree. So she'll see it, and the girl giving the talk isn't much older then she is now at 18.



As to what I thought of it? Well, I do think it's likely correct but can only speak from my own experiences. For me, The end of the 5th house is my P.O.F. and quite a distance into the 6th house is my BML> (about 12 degrees separates the two) I haven't looked at the Asteroid yet as I only keep BML on my default charts.

My BML almost destroyed my marriage in my 40s. So it is a heavy hitter. She is likely correct as she describes how it can affect people, on both sides. But then again, the books published also say the same as BML doesn't bring us lovely presents from the gods, rather the opposite. imo.
Since BML cannot destroy what I didn't create in the first place (in my way of thinking, i.e. we all create in lifetimes), I think it was shadow energy just waiting it's turn so to speak of something I once had going in a past life more then likely. So when I became vulnerable and (Neptune Uranus challenged), I acted to my later regret. We ALL make mistakes in life, and this one was mine.


All in all, I'd say from a personal perception, it rings true what she says.

Hi Leo Moon
I remember our BML exchange and the general gist of its content.

Unfortunately, I don't keep all written exchanges and I no longer have your chart. Yet if I remember, you had natal MEAN BML in Sagittarius. I recall you speaking of your past personal cultural heritage, which I found interesting. Also, that it could signify 'a natural talent' that, in Sagittarian manner, may be and/or remains (un)recognised in the wider world. (This thought came after seeing Rudolf Nureyev's chart. Leaving and self-imposed exile from his homeland for creative success, never to treturn. His BML is in Sagittarius. Thoughts I worked upon to gather further proof! )

I don't work with aspects between non-physical points (my Earth influence??), so cannot comment on BML's transits to them.

Thinking purely in Astro. symbolism terms, Sagittarius is the sign relating to ( the furthering and expansion of) specialised rather than Gemini's informative general knowledge. This desire to seek knowledge to know ( everything ) works through the function of Jupiter.
Could it be that a BML in Sagittarius, according to natal aspects it makes, shows how and more importantly IF this is ever possible?

It’s been observed that there are many sides to BML, of which one is the (self) denial, another is the non-admittance of that which, in this case, Sagittarius knows to be true. If such knowledge is oppressed, denied existence and the opportunity to surface, its images can live within to ‘haunt’ (other than dreams) one’s conscious self.
Deep down, do you really desire to know the truth because of what it can/will reveal about your daughter and her actions? As much as you would desire to, you can never truly know what went on in her mind, feelings, and spirit that resulted as it did. Your 'true knowledge' of her may not go far enough.
Could well be that your BML acts as an inner protector of your feelings.

Just thoughts; nothing written in stone.

Frisiangal said:

Hi Leo Moon
I remember our BML exchange and the general gist of its content.

Unfortunately, I don't keep all written exchanges and I no longer have your chart. Yet if I remember, you had natal MEAN BML in Sagittarius. I recall you speaking of your past personal cultural heritage, which I found interesting. Also, that it could signify 'a natural talent' that, in Sagittarian manner, may be and/or remains (un)recognised in the wider world. (This thought came after seeing Rudolf Nureyev's chart. Leaving and self-imposed exile from his homeland for creative success, never to treturn. His BML is in Sagittarius. Thoughts I worked upon to gather further proof! )

I don't work with aspects between non-physical points (my Earth influence??), so cannot comment on BML's transits to them.

Thinking purely in Astro. symbolism terms, Sagittarius is the sign relating to ( the furthering and expansion of) specialised rather than Gemini's informative general knowledge. This desire to seek knowledge to know ( everything ) works through the function of Jupiter.
Could it be that a BML in Sagittarius, according to natal aspects it makes, shows how and more importantly IF this is ever possible?

It’s been observed that there are many sides to BML, of which one is the (self) denial, another is the non-admittance of that which, in this case, Sagittarius knows to be true. If such knowledge is oppressed, denied existence and the opportunity to surface, its images can live within to ‘haunt’ (other than dreams) one’s conscious self.
Deep down, do you really desire to know the truth because of what it can/will reveal about your daughter and her actions? As much as you would desire to, you can never truly know what went on in her mind, feelings, and spirit that resulted as it did. Your 'true knowledge' of her may not go far enough.
Could well be that your BML acts as an inner protector of your feelings.

Just thoughts; nothing written in stone.

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Would "Shadow Moon Lilith" be a better descriptive label in your opinion? "Black" Moon Lilith is edgier, and probably helped it catch on, though.

Have you heard of "Black Sun Saturn"? It's the same idea, using Saturn's point of aphelion.

david starling said:

@ Frisiangal. Would "Shadow Moon Lilith" be a better descriptive label in your opinion? "Black" Moon Lilith is edgier, and probably helped it catch on, though.

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Personally, I don't think calling BML 'Shadow Moon Lilith' would make any difference to what it represents and how it seemingly works. Are you suggesting the name has a (negative) 'psychological' effect that is prpojected upon how people interpret its effects. I don't interpret it as a 'shadow' of the Moon. It seems to be the exact opposite; it is inner action, not REactional response as is the Moon.

Do you think the planets would act differently in their positions if Venus had been named Mars and vice versa, etc.etc., OR even called Beauty, War, Peace, Reverence, Fear, etc.? And if the big 7 were named after the 7 deadly sins, for instance. Is interpretting astrological symbolism all an effect of the 'association projection' towards their names given them? Or did the names given in the ancient teachings arise through observation of co-incidences over a long period of time? Did the ancients even consider personal behaviour in their deductions?

Long ago I stopped thinking of BML as a 'she', and as an 'it'. I believe the femininity applied to it refers to the active inner feeling that arises from it, similar to how, or perhaps the same as, instinct can work. It is present in both male and female charts.

Have you heard of "Black Sun Saturn"? It's the same idea, using Saturn's point of aphelion

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I had never heard of it, and could find no serious reseach on it through Internet. The Black Sun represents something else (https://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13389), I read G. Bode's book many, many years ago.

Is Black Sun Saturn something different to Saturn as the Night Sun in Eastern astrology?
Does aphelion refer Saturn's furthest distance from the Sun or Earth (as per BML)?