Where is Sara?
- Thread starter ElenaJ
- Start date
I can't honestly answer this. They do kidnap.
They are not known as rapists, but rather they take babies, children, young women off the streets to sell them. In the past they have been caught for example in a supermarket when the mother turns her head to get something off a shelf, and they are taking the baby from the shopping cart seat.
The lucky ones get caught, but others just disappear with the children who are never seen again.
They think they are responsible also for the disappearance of the little English girl who was on vacation with her family in Spain a few years ago.
Someone who was on his deathbed confessed that she was taken "on order", so they went for a child who was already sold.
I haven't heard about them marrying these children to their own sons.
Obviously though, stealing, begging, etc is their main income source.
They are not known as rapists, but rather they take babies, children, young women off the streets to sell them. In the past they have been caught for example in a supermarket when the mother turns her head to get something off a shelf, and they are taking the baby from the shopping cart seat.
The lucky ones get caught, but others just disappear with the children who are never seen again.
They think they are responsible also for the disappearance of the little English girl who was on vacation with her family in Spain a few years ago.
Someone who was on his deathbed confessed that she was taken "on order", so they went for a child who was already sold.
I haven't heard about them marrying these children to their own sons.
Obviously though, stealing, begging, etc is their main income source.
DiDi
Well-known member
yeah i just pmed you on the spain one i knew of...
thats why getting a teenager makes no sense cause she would run away when she got the chance... unless you know those underground rooms molesters have built and keep them there for 15 to 20 years....
THey wouldnt want to do it here... we take matters into our own hands and would sort them out ourselves and not care about the repocussions of the law... infact the law would stand up for us there too.
thats why getting a teenager makes no sense cause she would run away when she got the chance... unless you know those underground rooms molesters have built and keep them there for 15 to 20 years....
THey wouldnt want to do it here... we take matters into our own hands and would sort them out ourselves and not care about the repocussions of the law... infact the law would stand up for us there too.
It seems that for the past few days the police have been interrogating Sara's cousin, and a close friend of theirs. Apparently the night before the disappearance Sara and her cousin Sabrina had a big argument over this friend. Sabrina admits to this, but says she saw Sara in the morning and they were on friendly terms. The friend was interviewed on TV, and he says he was friends with both, but nothing more. Are we talking about a secret love triangle here?
Also, now the police say that where the cell phone was found, yes, it could have gotten there by being casually thrown out of the window of a passing car. However, since it went exactly into the middle of the burnt debris of the olive grove, they suspect someone actually walked over and put it there.
Remember, this is Sabrina's family's land.
Was someone trying to get rid of the cell phone that way? Or planting evidence?
In a horary chart a cousin is the 10th house, uncle is the 6th.
Looking back at the horary chart, the 10th is ruled by saturn, which is separating from a conjunction with the 7th (Sara), and a square with Pluto conjunct the 10th cusp. Pluto is ruler of the 8th (of death).
Saturn is also separating from an opposition to retrograde Jupiter and Uranus, both of which rule the 12th of hidden enemies.
Referring back to the event chart for the moment when Sara left her house to go to her cousin's house, and disappeared, it is interesting to note that the Jupiter/Uranus configuration is now on the 4th with the moon closing in on it, and all of them opposing Saturn conjunct the 10th.
In this chart since it is Sara leaving her house, the Ascendent should presumably represent her, therefore retrograde Jupiter, as well as the moon.
The moon separates from an opposition with mercury ruler of the 7th (open enemies?). Could this symbolize the argument with her cousin the evening before?
Can the event chart be read in this way?
Also, now the police say that where the cell phone was found, yes, it could have gotten there by being casually thrown out of the window of a passing car. However, since it went exactly into the middle of the burnt debris of the olive grove, they suspect someone actually walked over and put it there.
Remember, this is Sabrina's family's land.
Was someone trying to get rid of the cell phone that way? Or planting evidence?
In a horary chart a cousin is the 10th house, uncle is the 6th.
Looking back at the horary chart, the 10th is ruled by saturn, which is separating from a conjunction with the 7th (Sara), and a square with Pluto conjunct the 10th cusp. Pluto is ruler of the 8th (of death).
Saturn is also separating from an opposition to retrograde Jupiter and Uranus, both of which rule the 12th of hidden enemies.
Referring back to the event chart for the moment when Sara left her house to go to her cousin's house, and disappeared, it is interesting to note that the Jupiter/Uranus configuration is now on the 4th with the moon closing in on it, and all of them opposing Saturn conjunct the 10th.
In this chart since it is Sara leaving her house, the Ascendent should presumably represent her, therefore retrograde Jupiter, as well as the moon.
The moon separates from an opposition with mercury ruler of the 7th (open enemies?). Could this symbolize the argument with her cousin the evening before?
Can the event chart be read in this way?
Aquarius358
Well-known member
re the cousin being signified by 10 ruler, wouldn't that depend on whether it was mother's or father's sibling's child? The child/cousin is 5th & 3rd-from 10th if it's the mother's sibling who is the uncle - ie 4 ruler. No? And 5-from3-from 4 if it's the father's sibling who is the uncle?
And can the event chart be read in a 'horary' way - yes, definitely. It's clear and concise and uses classical/traditional rules and aphorisms - I think 'horary' for any kind of chart - event, natal, progressed, returns, transits etc. _________
There is news about Sara and it is very sad.
Last night (Wednesday) at about 10pm CET the police had a confession from the uncle. Apparently he says that when she got to the house, she stepped into the garage to say hello to him. He had made advances to her in the past, he did it again and says he was afraid she would tell on him, so when she turned her back he strangled her with a cord. When she was dead, he says he raped her. He took the police to where her naked body was, under water, in a shallow well covered by rocks, on his property near the olive grove where he claimed to have found her cell phone. She had been there since the first day she went missing.
It seems this uncle had been reported in the past for molesting a woman.
Also, apparently Sara had several times told her cousin that he was bothering her.
The uncle is the husband of Sara's father's sister.
Events evolved in a bizarre way. Wednesday evening Sara's family was on a television program, something like "Has anyone seen them?", where they look for missing people. The crew from the program was in the studio with a live audience, as well as in Sara's house. During the program, the mother's cell phone rang and she heard the news that they had found the body. On live TV. They continued the program (they say the only thing they had ready to air if they went off was a comedy show which they didn't think was appropriate so they continued with the show. This in itself seems bizarre to me.)
Also strange, since the beginning of the disappearance and the searches, Sara's mother has had only one facial expression. Her facial muscles never seem to move. Even at listening on the phone about the body being found. She didn't collapse, she didn't shout out, start to cry, any one of these would have been normal reaction. She is now in shock they say, and withdrawn from access.
My husband, who is Italian, suspects she was the uncle's lover. When the uncle found the cell phone and first came to the forefront, the mother's comment was, "The one person I would exclude would be my brother-in-law". This actually doesn't make sense, since surely she knows he had been accused of molesting, therefore highly suspicious.
So, now that we know all this, going back to the event chart, the murderer would be the 12th house and mars (Sara's father is 4th, his sister is 6th, her husband would be 12th).
Sara is jupiter, as the person who left her house in the event chart. Aside from a mutual reception by sign, what is the connection between these two?
Referring to the horary chart, which asked if gypsies had taken Sara, the reply should be No, since gypsies did not take her.
If Sara in the horary is 1st house mars and the murderer 7th venus, she is in the 7th (she went to his house) with Venus separating from a conjunction.
Last night (Wednesday) at about 10pm CET the police had a confession from the uncle. Apparently he says that when she got to the house, she stepped into the garage to say hello to him. He had made advances to her in the past, he did it again and says he was afraid she would tell on him, so when she turned her back he strangled her with a cord. When she was dead, he says he raped her. He took the police to where her naked body was, under water, in a shallow well covered by rocks, on his property near the olive grove where he claimed to have found her cell phone. She had been there since the first day she went missing.
It seems this uncle had been reported in the past for molesting a woman.
Also, apparently Sara had several times told her cousin that he was bothering her.
The uncle is the husband of Sara's father's sister.
Events evolved in a bizarre way. Wednesday evening Sara's family was on a television program, something like "Has anyone seen them?", where they look for missing people. The crew from the program was in the studio with a live audience, as well as in Sara's house. During the program, the mother's cell phone rang and she heard the news that they had found the body. On live TV. They continued the program (they say the only thing they had ready to air if they went off was a comedy show which they didn't think was appropriate so they continued with the show. This in itself seems bizarre to me.)
Also strange, since the beginning of the disappearance and the searches, Sara's mother has had only one facial expression. Her facial muscles never seem to move. Even at listening on the phone about the body being found. She didn't collapse, she didn't shout out, start to cry, any one of these would have been normal reaction. She is now in shock they say, and withdrawn from access.
My husband, who is Italian, suspects she was the uncle's lover. When the uncle found the cell phone and first came to the forefront, the mother's comment was, "The one person I would exclude would be my brother-in-law". This actually doesn't make sense, since surely she knows he had been accused of molesting, therefore highly suspicious.
So, now that we know all this, going back to the event chart, the murderer would be the 12th house and mars (Sara's father is 4th, his sister is 6th, her husband would be 12th).
Sara is jupiter, as the person who left her house in the event chart. Aside from a mutual reception by sign, what is the connection between these two?
Referring to the horary chart, which asked if gypsies had taken Sara, the reply should be No, since gypsies did not take her.
If Sara in the horary is 1st house mars and the murderer 7th venus, she is in the 7th (she went to his house) with Venus separating from a conjunction.
Aquarius358
Well-known member
Hello Elena: Yes, totally, it's very sad and rather hideous that a young girl wasn't safe even from a family member ...
I didn't look at this chart before, but now the outcome is known, I was curious to see what was in the horary chart to help work this out. It's interesting I think that 1 ruler and 8 ruler are both Mars in the horary chart (1 Sep 2010, 8:55 pm, Piacenza Italy). Can we take that as a confirmation that death was almost a foregone conclusion? Both 1 and 8 ruler being the same? I know 1 ruler being in the 8th and having mutual reception with the 8 ruler shows a high likelihood of death.
But more than that, 1 ruler Mars is VOC - which is a reasonable confirmation of death. I've seen this before in murder and missing persons charts.
But how could we have found the 12 ruler murderer from these charts? Looking at the horary ... and knowing now that it was the uncle who killed her - husband of Sara's father's sister - that gives us 12 ruler Saturn - worked out by 1 ruler for Sara; her father as 4 ruler; his sister as 3rd from 4th = 6 ruler; then her husband/the uncle as 7th from the 6th = 12 ruler Saturn.
OK, so what shows us Saturn is the murderer? It's quite strong being plus 17 but Venus 7 ruler is stronger with plus 23 in dignities. Then I thought reception might be one way and noticed that Mars (Sara) was in the Detriment of Saturn. Mars was in its own Detriment, yes, but we knew that Sara was in trouble. It wasn't saying anything extra. Also, Mars was in the Detriment of Venus (7 ruler) too. So it was either one of the malefics.
Plus Saturn is disposited by Venus - which is 7 ruler/murderer.
The significator of the victim being VOC is significant I think, and also the position of being in the Detriment of Saturn as well as her own. And a separating aspect.
I guess you could say all three major angles were afflicted rather badly too - in that the Asc had that nasty fixed star Scheat right on Uranus Rx close to the Asc. Then Saturn was just in the 7th and finally, in the top spot we have Pluto - often a signifier of death.
I'd be interested to hear your comments. _______________
thank you, very interesting comments.
I'm still puzzled though by the horary in that the question "did the gypsies take Sara?" should give a "No". Several suggestions have been made as to the significator of gypsies but no interpretations had given a negative on this chart.
About the TV, last night on the news they aired an interview which a young woman journalist did in the afternoon in the home of Sara's cousin, showing the cousin and her sister sitting on the couch and crying, criticizing their father now that it's come out he is the murderer, etc. I found this the height of bad taste but also, why did anyone permit access to the sisters by a journalist? They need a psychologist if anything.
Their mother was not there. Oddly enough, the mother's brother, who is Sara's father, made an appearance only the first two days of the disappearance. Both of them, brother and sister, have been invisible all this time.
There were also interviews with some criminologists who commented on the uncle, who had appeared in several interviews. Apparently what made the police suspicious of him was the same error the murderers in Peter Falk's Colombo series always make...they start making too many clues, traces, explanations. Which is what the uncle did, in his crude simple way.
Poor Sara was enrolled in a special high school to learn the hotel trade, she just wanted to learn so she could find work on a cruise ship and get away. I can understand why. And she is not the only one unfortunately.
I'm still puzzled though by the horary in that the question "did the gypsies take Sara?" should give a "No". Several suggestions have been made as to the significator of gypsies but no interpretations had given a negative on this chart.
About the TV, last night on the news they aired an interview which a young woman journalist did in the afternoon in the home of Sara's cousin, showing the cousin and her sister sitting on the couch and crying, criticizing their father now that it's come out he is the murderer, etc. I found this the height of bad taste but also, why did anyone permit access to the sisters by a journalist? They need a psychologist if anything.
Their mother was not there. Oddly enough, the mother's brother, who is Sara's father, made an appearance only the first two days of the disappearance. Both of them, brother and sister, have been invisible all this time.
There were also interviews with some criminologists who commented on the uncle, who had appeared in several interviews. Apparently what made the police suspicious of him was the same error the murderers in Peter Falk's Colombo series always make...they start making too many clues, traces, explanations. Which is what the uncle did, in his crude simple way.
Poor Sara was enrolled in a special high school to learn the hotel trade, she just wanted to learn so she could find work on a cruise ship and get away. I can understand why. And she is not the only one unfortunately.
BobZemco
Well-known member
The Chart does say "no."
Other than Ariana or Radu, I seriously doubt anyone here has had more contact with tsigani than I have. The general significator for tsigani in an Event Chart would be Mercury (or its upper octave Uranus).
In the Event Chart, you have a Double-bodied Sign on the 7th House Cusp and its ruler is also in a Double-bodied Sign, which shows that more than one person was involved in this crime.
It's a Day Chart, so the girl's father is 4th House, Jupiter/Sun and the girl's mother is 10th House, Mercury/Venus. The mother's brother (the uncle) would be the third house from the 10th House, or the Chart's 12th House which is Mars in Detriment in the 10th House.
The girl is Jupiter/Moon, and you can see that both Jupiter/Moon are very close to the 4th House Cusp showing she is under or between something and the Moon in Pisces ruling the 8th House would show water.
Mars is in both a Human Sign and a Violent Sign and Mars rules Aries (a Violent Sign) where Jupiter is showing she was beaten and/or strangled.
A tragic result.
I commend Culpeper's analysis of September 3rd, in which a fatal result to the disappearance was accurately predicted.
Several posters got the "Gypsies?" question wrong; certainly it was not easy to determine if it were Gypsies or, as it turned out, someone else. However the "Gypsies?" horary did show a "definitely no" answer when delineated by the "true or false?" technique outlined by old time "Arabic" astrologers (Ibn Ezra; Al-Biruni) and used in the Ankara (Old Turkish) horary tradition: following is an example of this method applied to the reference "Gypsies?" horary:
-in true or false analysius, the 9th house is taken as signifying house, and the condition of its sign lord (planetary ruler of the sign) shows the likely "true" or likely "false" indications:
-in the reference chart (by whole sign) the sign on the 9th house is Sagittarius: its planetary significator is Jupiter
-Jupiter is posited in the 1st house = + (true) indication
-Jupiter is retrograde = - (false) indication
-Moon flows away from Jupiter = - (false) indication
-Sun flows away from Jupiter = - (false) indication
-Jupiter is sign-inconjunct with Sun = - (false) indication
Results:
+ (true) indications: 1
- (false) indications: 4
Net: -3 (false) indications
Therefore the answer to the question "Gypsies?" (meaning: true or false: gypsies took Sara?) is a decided NO-Untrue-response.
I commend Culpeper's analysis of September 3rd, in which a fatal result to the disappearance was accurately predicted.
Several posters got the "Gypsies?" question wrong; certainly it was not easy to determine if it were Gypsies or, as it turned out, someone else. However the "Gypsies?" horary did show a "definitely no" answer when delineated by the "true or false?" technique outlined by old time "Arabic" astrologers (Ibn Ezra; Al-Biruni) and used in the Ankara (Old Turkish) horary tradition: following is an example of this method applied to the reference "Gypsies?" horary:
-in true or false analysius, the 9th house is taken as signifying house, and the condition of its sign lord (planetary ruler of the sign) shows the likely "true" or likely "false" indications:
-in the reference chart (by whole sign) the sign on the 9th house is Sagittarius: its planetary significator is Jupiter
-Jupiter is posited in the 1st house = + (true) indication
-Jupiter is retrograde = - (false) indication
-Moon flows away from Jupiter = - (false) indication
-Sun flows away from Jupiter = - (false) indication
-Jupiter is sign-inconjunct with Sun = - (false) indication
Results:
+ (true) indications: 1
- (false) indications: 4
Net: -3 (false) indications
Therefore the answer to the question "Gypsies?" (meaning: true or false: gypsies took Sara?) is a decided NO-Untrue-response.
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Thank you both.
One detail, the uncle (murderer) is the husband of Sara's father's sister. Working the houses though, he still comes out as 12th.
Last night it was verified that there was sexual violence. The uncle confessed to having moved her to the family's land, where he undressed her and burnt the clothes. Seeing her naked he was "overcome" and raped her, if you can use this term on a corpse.
Apparently he had been trying to repair his tractor and was quite frustrated because he couldn't, and Sara showed up early for the appointment with his daughter. Perfectly reflects the Mars profile.
He made advances and given his agitated mental state when she rebuffed him and turned her back to him he put a cord around her neck and strangled her.
He claims he kept dreaming about her afterwards and she was saying "cover me" (referring to her naked state in death), which is why he apparently tried to get himself "found out".
There is a lot of anger in the town and calls for the murderer's death.
His lawyer (state appointed) was warned by the police it would be best not to go to the town.
And there has been a lot of criticism of the live TV program, where they broke the news to Sara's mother.
One last point, at the moment there is no indication that anyone else was involved in the crime. There have only been insinuations that the cousin had suspicions.
So, what is tsigani?
One detail, the uncle (murderer) is the husband of Sara's father's sister. Working the houses though, he still comes out as 12th.
Last night it was verified that there was sexual violence. The uncle confessed to having moved her to the family's land, where he undressed her and burnt the clothes. Seeing her naked he was "overcome" and raped her, if you can use this term on a corpse.
Apparently he had been trying to repair his tractor and was quite frustrated because he couldn't, and Sara showed up early for the appointment with his daughter. Perfectly reflects the Mars profile.
He made advances and given his agitated mental state when she rebuffed him and turned her back to him he put a cord around her neck and strangled her.
He claims he kept dreaming about her afterwards and she was saying "cover me" (referring to her naked state in death), which is why he apparently tried to get himself "found out".
There is a lot of anger in the town and calls for the murderer's death.
His lawyer (state appointed) was warned by the police it would be best not to go to the town.
And there has been a lot of criticism of the live TV program, where they broke the news to Sara's mother.
One last point, at the moment there is no indication that anyone else was involved in the crime. There have only been insinuations that the cousin had suspicions.
So, what is tsigani?
Sorry, I should add a note here. Italy officially is opposed to the death penalty. In reality, this was pushed through by a minority political group, but anyone you speak with is for it. Allowing transmission on TV of the crowd calling for the murderer's death is something of a first here, and shocking, although it reflects the public outrage at this crime not only in the town, but nationally.
The crime was a result of ignorance and poverty, but also lots of heads turned to not see, as he had already been reported in the past for molesting, and he had tried to molest Sara in the past, which she confessed to her cousin (her "best friend").
The crime was a result of ignorance and poverty, but also lots of heads turned to not see, as he had already been reported in the past for molesting, and he had tried to molest Sara in the past, which she confessed to her cousin (her "best friend").
Aquarius358
Well-known member
thank you, very interesting comments.
I'm still puzzled though by the horary in that the question "did the gypsies take Sara?" should give a "No". Several suggestions have been made as to the significator of gypsies but no interpretations had given a negative on this chart.
Hi ElenaJ: Sorry - I didn't focus on the gypsies. I was looking to see how the uncle came up in your horary 1 Sep, 8:55pm - which would of course have given a "no, not the gypsies" by default (since it was someone other than them).
But who were the gypsies in the chart? They are "other people" aren't they, so 7 ruler would have been reasonable to take as the gypsies and then Sara's Mars being in Libra is also disposited by Venus, too, which would seem to confirm the gypsies. Except Libra is not a double bodied sign. But we've since found out that it was 12 ruler Saturn - a planet considered to be the greater malefic, a natural signifier of death and standing just outside the 7th where
Sara was and so controlling the 7th House AND - importantly - Saturn was opposing Sara's Ascendant - clearly indicating death.
Of course, we would have needed to work backwards from there to work out that the 12th ruled the uncle and we would've needed to be aware that the uncle was a possible suspect - all of which is possible in hindsight!
As Sara's other signifier, the Moon last had contact with the Sun--so who was the Sun? it's 6 ruler in your 8:55pm chart and suggests who? a single, again, not multiple persons. ____________
I'm still puzzled though by the horary in that the question "did the gypsies take Sara?" should give a "No". Several suggestions have been made as to the significator of gypsies but no interpretations had given a negative on this chart.
Hi ElenaJ: Sorry - I didn't focus on the gypsies. I was looking to see how the uncle came up in your horary 1 Sep, 8:55pm - which would of course have given a "no, not the gypsies" by default (since it was someone other than them).
But who were the gypsies in the chart? They are "other people" aren't they, so 7 ruler would have been reasonable to take as the gypsies and then Sara's Mars being in Libra is also disposited by Venus, too, which would seem to confirm the gypsies. Except Libra is not a double bodied sign. But we've since found out that it was 12 ruler Saturn - a planet considered to be the greater malefic, a natural signifier of death and standing just outside the 7th where
Sara was and so controlling the 7th House AND - importantly - Saturn was opposing Sara's Ascendant - clearly indicating death.
Of course, we would have needed to work backwards from there to work out that the 12th ruled the uncle and we would've needed to be aware that the uncle was a possible suspect - all of which is possible in hindsight!
As Sara's other signifier, the Moon last had contact with the Sun--so who was the Sun? it's 6 ruler in your 8:55pm chart and suggests who? a single, again, not multiple persons. ____________
Aquarius358
Well-known member
FYI:
Names of the Romani people
TSIGANI: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with Romanians, a completely unrelated ethnical group.
Distribution of the Romani people in Europe based on self-designation.
The Romani people are also known by a variety of other names, in English as Roma, Gypsies, or Travellers, historically also as "tinkers" from their common occupation as tinsmiths. In Central and Eastern Europe as Tsigani (and variants), in France as gitans besides the dated bohémiens and manouches.
NB: Apparently, they self-designate names for themselves and the self designation varies as well. __________________--
Names of the Romani people
TSIGANI: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with Romanians, a completely unrelated ethnical group.
Distribution of the Romani people in Europe based on self-designation.
The Romani people are also known by a variety of other names, in English as Roma, Gypsies, or Travellers, historically also as "tinkers" from their common occupation as tinsmiths. In Central and Eastern Europe as Tsigani (and variants), in France as gitans besides the dated bohémiens and manouches.
NB: Apparently, they self-designate names for themselves and the self designation varies as well. __________________--
Thanks, I actually thought the term had something to do with astrology!
I've never heard it before. In Italy the gypsies are referred to as "Rom".
Anyway, moving on, there are two new details about the case on Sara.
One is that it now turns out the uncle (murderer) is married to Sara's mother's sister (not her father's sister). (sorry, this is what typically passes for journalism here these days). So, that would turn the chart 180 degrees.
Also, with reference to the double bodied sign on the descendent, the police have not closed the case even though he has confessed. They believe it was very unlikely that he did everything on his own. The insinuations are that they are centering on the cousin Sara had the appointment with, and/or their girlfriend who showed up a few minutes after the appointment with her car.
The police also maintain it was almost impossible for the murder to have taken place in the garage without anyone in the house hearing something.
So Bob may turn out to be right after all.
Or this may lead nowhere.
Further, it turns out that Sara loved animals and there was a stray German shepherd that she more or less adopted who followed her to school, waited for her, came home with her, etc. Everyone knew this and called it "Sara's dog". There have been no comments about where the dog was when she was walking to her cousin's house, or when she was attacked.
After she had been killed in the garage he apparently took position in front of the doors and didn't move away for days. Surely someone in the house would have picked up on this.
He even came to the funeral and stayed in front of the funeral parlor until they left with the coffin.
I've never heard it before. In Italy the gypsies are referred to as "Rom".
Anyway, moving on, there are two new details about the case on Sara.
One is that it now turns out the uncle (murderer) is married to Sara's mother's sister (not her father's sister). (sorry, this is what typically passes for journalism here these days). So, that would turn the chart 180 degrees.
Also, with reference to the double bodied sign on the descendent, the police have not closed the case even though he has confessed. They believe it was very unlikely that he did everything on his own. The insinuations are that they are centering on the cousin Sara had the appointment with, and/or their girlfriend who showed up a few minutes after the appointment with her car.
The police also maintain it was almost impossible for the murder to have taken place in the garage without anyone in the house hearing something.
So Bob may turn out to be right after all.
Or this may lead nowhere.
Further, it turns out that Sara loved animals and there was a stray German shepherd that she more or less adopted who followed her to school, waited for her, came home with her, etc. Everyone knew this and called it "Sara's dog". There have been no comments about where the dog was when she was walking to her cousin's house, or when she was attacked.
After she had been killed in the garage he apparently took position in front of the doors and didn't move away for days. Surely someone in the house would have picked up on this.
He even came to the funeral and stayed in front of the funeral parlor until they left with the coffin.
I found the birth date of the uncle who confessed to the murder and the chart, for noon, is attached.
Police are still hammering away at his confession, convinced that he did not act alone. I'm very curious to see what comes of this, after Bob's comment about the double signed Asc/Des.
Police are still hammering away at his confession, convinced that he did not act alone. I'm very curious to see what comes of this, after Bob's comment about the double signed Asc/Des.
Attachments
Elena,
I've been thinking about this case more, some things just seem strange!
What did the cousin do when Sara didn't turn up? Were other family members in the house? And if the uncle was hanging out in front of the garage, wouldn't they become suspicious, as you say?
How and when did the uncle take her body to hide it? I cannot remember exactly where you said it was found-in a creek? What kind of vehicle did the uncle supposedly use to transport her body? I suppose one person could handle a body but it seems it would be very tough to do-and surely not in daylight.
Could family loyalty and concern about reputation be powerful enough that other family members would help cover the crime to prevent shame in the community? This could further confirm Bob's comment about double signs on asc and dsc-surely something one would not ignore.
How do the courts work in rural Italy-will this eventually go to trial with a jury of peers, etc, as in the US?
I've been thinking about this case more, some things just seem strange!
What did the cousin do when Sara didn't turn up? Were other family members in the house? And if the uncle was hanging out in front of the garage, wouldn't they become suspicious, as you say?
How and when did the uncle take her body to hide it? I cannot remember exactly where you said it was found-in a creek? What kind of vehicle did the uncle supposedly use to transport her body? I suppose one person could handle a body but it seems it would be very tough to do-and surely not in daylight.
Could family loyalty and concern about reputation be powerful enough that other family members would help cover the crime to prevent shame in the community? This could further confirm Bob's comment about double signs on asc and dsc-surely something one would not ignore.
How do the courts work in rural Italy-will this eventually go to trial with a jury of peers, etc, as in the US?
You've put your finger on precisely the main points the police are suspicious about. Although he keeps insisting he did everything alone, the police ask why the sister and mother in the house didn't hear anything, especially since they were expecting Sara to show up and had an ear open, so to speak.
Also, during the initial confession, the uncle said "I put her body in the car and then WE parked the car, that is, I parked the car". They say this lapsus betrays what his confession. I'm not sure if he says he used his tractor or the car, but yes it wouldn't be easy, although physically he is quite strong from the agricultural work he has always done.
Contrary to previous news which confirmed that Sara had in fact been raped, they now say that after 40 or so days in water the DNA results don't give this information. They are trying again. So this is still up in the air.
She was at the bottom of a well in the field of the olive grove, covered by rocks and debris. Had he not confessed it would have been just about impossible to find the body there.
When Sara didn't show up, at 2:48pm the cousin called her on her cell phone, didn't have an answer, then tried again and the phone didn't ring anymore on further tries. If in fact the cell phone was in the garage with Sara, why didn't they hear it ring from the house?
Also if, as the uncle claims, he had twice before tried to molest Sara, why on earth would she go into the garage where he was alone to greet him, instead of going into the house or just ringing the bell at the gate for her cousin?
The defense lawyer looks like he is trying for mentally unfit status for the uncle. If that happens, he can be found guilty but mentally disturbed and therefore would go to an institute rather than a jail. He is currently in prison, in isolation.
Yes, in Italy there are trials but not by jury. The judge or judges decide based on the evidence.
The justice system here doesn't work well at all. There are lawyers and judges who work well of course, but many are politically oriented and go after their adversaries on that basis. Also, their orientation is for clemency, and here even if you kill someone, they bend over backwards to not convict. A recent example. On the main highway this summer a Rumanian (who are now free to circulate in Europe since they became part of the European Community), was driving a truck and bumped the car in front of him, but didn't stop. The car (driven by an Italian) followed him and when the truck stopped at the exit to pay the toll, he went to the driver's window telling him to pull over and stop, the driver was arrogant and told him off.
So, the Italian laid down on the road in front of the truck to stop him from leaving until the police showed up.
The driver ran right over him, obviously killing him. The police stopped and arrested the driver. Brought to trial before the judge, it was determined that he hadn't realized that by driving over the man he could have killed him, so he was let out.
You really have to bend your antennas to come up with something like that, and the people here are sick of it, it is an everyday story. Because he was a Rumanian it was a politically sensitive situation and the judges are on their side. Another time, a drunken Rumanian ran his stolen car into a bus stop filled with commuters, he also got off with a warning. And of course, knowing this, any delinquents etc take advantage and get away with murder, also literally. That's how the system works here at the moment, and there is hugh and heavy resistance to change it, although the government is trying to make changes. Which is why they are under attack.
Back to Sara, since the uncle is Italian and there is a lot of serious public sentiment about the case, he will not be dismissed but could land up in an institute.
Also, during the initial confession, the uncle said "I put her body in the car and then WE parked the car, that is, I parked the car". They say this lapsus betrays what his confession. I'm not sure if he says he used his tractor or the car, but yes it wouldn't be easy, although physically he is quite strong from the agricultural work he has always done.
Contrary to previous news which confirmed that Sara had in fact been raped, they now say that after 40 or so days in water the DNA results don't give this information. They are trying again. So this is still up in the air.
She was at the bottom of a well in the field of the olive grove, covered by rocks and debris. Had he not confessed it would have been just about impossible to find the body there.
When Sara didn't show up, at 2:48pm the cousin called her on her cell phone, didn't have an answer, then tried again and the phone didn't ring anymore on further tries. If in fact the cell phone was in the garage with Sara, why didn't they hear it ring from the house?
Also if, as the uncle claims, he had twice before tried to molest Sara, why on earth would she go into the garage where he was alone to greet him, instead of going into the house or just ringing the bell at the gate for her cousin?
The defense lawyer looks like he is trying for mentally unfit status for the uncle. If that happens, he can be found guilty but mentally disturbed and therefore would go to an institute rather than a jail. He is currently in prison, in isolation.
Yes, in Italy there are trials but not by jury. The judge or judges decide based on the evidence.
The justice system here doesn't work well at all. There are lawyers and judges who work well of course, but many are politically oriented and go after their adversaries on that basis. Also, their orientation is for clemency, and here even if you kill someone, they bend over backwards to not convict. A recent example. On the main highway this summer a Rumanian (who are now free to circulate in Europe since they became part of the European Community), was driving a truck and bumped the car in front of him, but didn't stop. The car (driven by an Italian) followed him and when the truck stopped at the exit to pay the toll, he went to the driver's window telling him to pull over and stop, the driver was arrogant and told him off.
So, the Italian laid down on the road in front of the truck to stop him from leaving until the police showed up.
The driver ran right over him, obviously killing him. The police stopped and arrested the driver. Brought to trial before the judge, it was determined that he hadn't realized that by driving over the man he could have killed him, so he was let out.
You really have to bend your antennas to come up with something like that, and the people here are sick of it, it is an everyday story. Because he was a Rumanian it was a politically sensitive situation and the judges are on their side. Another time, a drunken Rumanian ran his stolen car into a bus stop filled with commuters, he also got off with a warning. And of course, knowing this, any delinquents etc take advantage and get away with murder, also literally. That's how the system works here at the moment, and there is hugh and heavy resistance to change it, although the government is trying to make changes. Which is why they are under attack.
Back to Sara, since the uncle is Italian and there is a lot of serious public sentiment about the case, he will not be dismissed but could land up in an institute.