Contradicting Lunar Nodes

Nyxia

Member
North Node in :capricorn: in 4th House.
South Node in :cancer: in 10th House.

I guess my North Node placement means I would have to strive towards matters pertaining to the 4th house of 'family/nurturing/home/etc'. But how do you equate that considering it's in the sign of Capricorn? Wouldn't that mean 'career/reputation/independence/etc' is what I should strive for? And what would the South Node position represent, being in the sign of Cancer but placed in the 10th House of career? I just don't see how this would manifest since by nature it's contradictory.

To complicate matters further, my Gemini Moon is conjunct South Node. Other than that, the Moon is the only planet with no aspects to another planet in my chart.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
My perspective on the Lunar Nodes considers the NN equivalent to a mixture of Venus + Jupiter qualities/influences, and generally represents a benefic, often "lucky" influence relative to the sign its in, the house its in, and any planet conjunct or parallel with it; in a way, its represents potential advancement and opportunities (at all levels); my perspective regarding the SN is extremist (but I am convinced of its validity): the SN represents chaos, the weak point or achilles heel, the "fly in the ointment" significator for a given chart, and is equivalent to the disruptive qualities of Mars + Saturn; it represents (from my perspective) the qualities/influences which must be overcome, the ultimate weakness/susceptibility needed to be corrected, and its sign and house placement specifically shows where these problems are, with what they are concerned and connected; also any planet in conjunction or parallel with the SN, is afflicted thereby and further shows that the affinities and significations of that planet, are a potential source of difficulties which should (ideally) be overcome.

One could delineate the house and sign (and any planet in conjunction or parallel) with the NN as being, defacto, connected with a + Venus/Jupiter conjunction; and one could delineate the house and sign (and any planet in conjunction or parallel) with the SN as being, defact, connected with a - Mars/Saturn conjunction.

Judith Hill's book, "The Lunar Nodes" (easily available from many astrology book vendors, and from Amazon) is an excellent source for much (accurate) information regarding the delineative meaning and implications of the Nodes in signs, houses, and in connection with the planets.
 

Birch Dragon

Well-known member
Hi Nyxia,
My nodes are in the same signs and houses. When I first came to this site a few months ago I started a thread on this very question. It had a fairly long life, running for about seventy posts or so. At the beginning there's some pissy stuff but once rather thread gets going it has, I think, some good stuff in it.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69955

One o the messages of the thread is that we have to read the nodes in conjunction with a holistic look at the whole chart. How do you feel about posting your chart on this thread?
 

Nyxia

Member
Dr. farr, thank you for your insight!

Curiously, I find it quite surprising that the NN often tends to be a lucky influence relative to the sign and house it's in. I come from a dysfunctional family so this is quite mind-boggling to me. The thought of my life's Karmic lesson being about becoming a leader and manager in that pandemonium is very unappealing to me. It's terrifying. Even just the thought of involving myself by trying to establish order sorta sounds like some version of human secrifice to me. The ill patterns are like a vacuum so chances are I would be sucked in, in no time. As it is, I rather not even consider "family" and "roots" a value. Values are also guiding principles because they likely form a solid core of who you are, what you believe, and where to be going forward. I refuse the place I come from to be what defines me. I believe in transformation. I've made up my mind that's something that I have to do for my mental and physical well being. I feel like disassociating from my background is what delivers a sense of liberation in and of itself. Like it's the only way forward. I guess this seems like going against my NN. Unless perhaps, this placement could be interpreted differently from another perspective. Maybe it all depends on the concept of home. Is home where blood ties you, or is it where you feel you belong? If it's a means of leaving a setting of abuse, and a means of establishing a secure environment, then perhaps feeling an overwhelming urge to overturn all of the home and domesticity settings to relocate and reinvent could actually be in line with my NN placement. I certainly hope so. I moved away a couple years ago. I stopped talking to my family. But I am struggling to completely break away. I haven't been able to cut all of my mental ties, I probably still have residual complexes and traumas. But now that they're not around I am really on my own and I find the peace of my newfound home is so comfortable I've been keeping to myself lately. Maybe I am cocooning myself from the world. But I would prefer to embrace it, so I guess being out there in the real world more often is what I need to work on.
 

Nyxia

Member
Birch Dragon, thank you for sharing your thread! Very interesting reading with lots for me to process and learn.

I agree with the holistic approach to the chart. Interestingly though, it seems to me that my Lunar Nodes are quite significant, especially conidering my SN is in Cancer. Seems almost like a point of confusion in my chart, since my chart almost lacks water otherwise. As you can see below even with a bunch of Asteroids added, other than the SN, one distant planet is the only water placement I have. And the Moon conjunction is quite confusing to me, even more so considering it's in Gemini. Cancer and Gemini conjunction sounds like trouble, doesn't it?

2r3wbcx.jpg
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
A Note on the posted reference chart:
For me (and others who use whole sign rather than quadrant house formats) the North Node in this chart, @ 0Capricorn41, is in the 5TH (whole sign) HOUSE, not the 4th house. So, for those like me who believe whole sign is more accurate in general than any other house division format, the North Node affects the 5TH HOUSE and its significations here, and has no connection with the 4th house and its significations...
 

Nyxia

Member
Wow, thanks for letting me know! Do most Astrologers use the whole sign system? In that case thete's no such contradiction with the Nodes in my chart. Now I'm relieved a little bit. lol.

All this time I thought I have it placed in 4th H. If it's in the 5th H, then the SN too is rather in 11th H, isn't it? Now I'll be googling for info on that placement.

P.S.: Is there any indicators of being from a dysfunctional family in my chart? Untill now I used to think it must have something to do with my Nodes, but now that I know mine are actually in 5thH/11thH I'm thinking it must be something else since those two houses don't concern these matters.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Unfortunately (in my opinion) the great majority do NOT use whole sign houses, most use either Placidus or Koch (many Traditionalists use Regiomontanus), a smaller number use Equal House (which is somewhat similar to whole sign) I'd say that, currently, not more than 5 to (perhaps) 10 % use whole sign-although whole sign was the original house system format used in all astrology, prior to its disappearance (in the West) around the mid-9th century AD (whole sign has resurfaced over the past 20 years, with the translation of the oldtime books of Greek and early Islamic era astrology; I converted to whole sign, back in 1998)

Potential indications for dysfunctional relationship with the family might be shown by the platik (ie, sign to sign, rather than degree to degree) opposition of Venus + the Sun + Mercury + the Moon, to the 4th house (as a whole), plus the platik square of Jupiter to the 4th house, and the square relationship of your Part of Fortune, to the 4th house (platik aspects are never as "strong" as aspects by degree, however they can show additional influences: in this chart fully 5 planets are in a hard-ie either square or oposition-geometrical relationship to the 4th house, plus the Part of Fortune is in hard relationship to the 4th house as well)
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Also, the star Yed Posterior is in longitudinal conjunction with the sensitive point (whole sign "cusp") of the 4th house (5 Sagittarius 45): this star was known as the "Hand of Ophiucus" and was regarded as a star..."of evil influence..."(see, eg, the entry for Yed Posterior @ constellationsofwords.com)
 

Birch Dragon

Well-known member
I'm still going to lobby for Placidus, putting your nodes in the 4th/10th, as I think your response to dr. Farr fits very well with how I'm seeing my own nodes. Of course, you should go with the chart that seems to best speak to you about yourself.

That said, I was struck by how similar this was to my own experiences.
Curiously, I find it quite surprising that the NN often tends to be a lucky influence relative to the sign and house it's in. I come from a dysfunctional family so this is quite mind-boggling to me. The thought of my life's Karmic lesson being about becoming a leader and manager in that pandemonium is very unappealing to me. It's terrifying. Even just the thought of involving myself by trying to establish order sorta sounds like some version of human secrifice to me. The ill patterns are like a vacuum so chances are I would be sucked in, in no time. As it is, I rather not even consider "family" and "roots" a value. Values are also guiding principles because they likely form a solid core of who you are, what you believe, and where to be going forward. I refuse the place I come from to be what defines me. I believe in transformation. I've made up my mind that's something that I have to do for my mental and physical well being. I feel like disassociating from my background is what delivers a sense of liberation in and of itself. Like it's the only way forward. I guess this seems like going against my NN. Unless perhaps, this placement could be interpreted differently from another perspective. Maybe it all depends on the concept of home. Is home where blood ties you, or is it where you feel you belong? If it's a means of leaving a setting of abuse, and a means of establishing a secure environment, then perhaps feeling an overwhelming urge to overturn all of the home and domesticity settings to relocate and reinvent could actually be in line with my NN placement. I certainly hope so. I moved away a couple years ago. I stopped talking to my family. But I am struggling to completely break away. I haven't been able to cut all of my mental ties, I probably still have residual complexes and traumas. But now that they're not around I am really on my own and I find the peace of my newfound home is so comfortable I've been keeping to myself lately. Maybe I am cocooning myself from the world. But I would prefer to embrace it, so I guess being out there in the real world more often is what I need to work on.

That is, you're younger than me. What you've said here might better suite me 20 years ago. But if you read the thread I linked to, you saw I have a similar reaction to this Cap NN in 4th nodal placement. I too am very put off by the notion that this placement is all about domesticity and roots. That thread was all about me seeking for some deeper explanation. And now, with your account on this thread, I'm beginning to think there's something about this rejection of home life that is in fact a condition of the Cap NN in 4th.
First, my sense of how the nodes work in a chart has matured in recent months, I think. I think the nodes are pointing at something we are trying to learn in this life but they don't necessarily dominate the chart or tell the whole story. So when you said in another post that the Cancer SN seems off because you don't have much water in your chart, that's suggesting the notion that you "come from" Cancer and should expect a lot of water traits in your psyche (and therefore chart). I don't think it has to work that way. As an analogy, you can be naturally attuned to literature and languages but still have to take a class in science. So too, you can be all fire and air (as I am) and still set out to learn about the Cancer/Capricorn axis. And so that leads to a second way my thinking about the nodes has changed. I see the nodes now as presenting an axis that we have to learn how to balance much more than a line of trajectory where we're trying to get the heck away from the South Node while rocketing towards the North Node. So I don't see your nodal placement as a "contradiction" so much as the perfect placement for concentrating on how the two polarities of this axis (Cancer/ Capricorn axis, IC/MC axis) really work together.
In my own life, I really see the lesson this way: I have to learn that my grand ideas - and I'm very good at grand ideas - have to be manifest in the world through slow, methodical, step-by-step crafting and creating. A tree can reach to the sky but it must grow from the roots up. A book can be filled with brilliant ideas (air and fire) and feelings (water) but to actually exist as a book it has to be crafted and created page by page. That takes time, discipline and ultimately a kind of mastery of the Earth element. That's been one of the key tasks of my life...
In regards to family, I'm older now and suspect the nodal lesson might actually be to get the hell away from one's own dysfunctional family and learn later in life how to build your own healthy family, from scratch. Where independence and self-mastery of becoming the pater familius of your own, newly started line (if you symbolically break from your bloodline) fits Capricorn to some degree. (Don't forget that Capricorn betters with age. This is a placement where lessons will be fulfilled later in life.)
But that said, I can't help but think that developing some mastery over one's own psyche - becoming a master of the seething, often unconscious psychic forces that most people live their lives reacting to rather than understanding, predicting and even controlling - has everything to do with this placement as well. If there's a candidate for one place in the series of houses that signifies the unconscious mind it has to be the IC. The Sabian symbols for my nodes suggests something of that for me, and I invite you to check out your own Sabian symbols and see if ruminating on them rings any bells for you.
(You can find Dane Rudhyar's take on Sabian symbols here: http://www.mindfire.ca/An Astrological Mandala/An Astrological Mandala - Contents.htm)

But of course, a lot of this may be coming from my own expense with recently thinks about this exact same nodal placement. Again, I think of the natal chart as essentially a mandala for you to stare at and, in the rumination, reveal things about your self to yourself. What really matters for you is the chart you choose to read, and what you see signified in it...
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
I come from a dysfunctional family

In what way?
Do you mean that 'the family' does not function as a unit bound by feelings; everyone does their own thing, thinks their own way, is scattered all over the place, etc. The influence of a Moon in Gemini?
Or; do you mean that you do not function in the same manner as within the family unit because you tend to do your own thing, find that
friendships bind more than family ties, and your mind definitely works in another manner than theirs do?

You're still very young. Rebellion against the institution of 'family' is normal at your age. Your age group is not bound by the conditioning of grounding, traditions, and duty towards others. Responsibilities, also towards one's self, are not easy tomaintain. There's no limit to anything holding one back; the world is your oyster.

Yet, to make it on the physical plane of Earth's manifestation (NN Capr.), there may be a need to find the inner self control (4th house) that governs how one's life evolves. It's true that 'home' can be wherever one hangs one's hat (to paraphrase Paul Young:biggrin:). Yet there may be a necessity to have to take care that emotion through feeling(Scorpio I.C.+ Mars quincunx Pluto+ SN Cancer) does not continue to take precedence OR is withheld, whereby 'home' becomes a (lonely) place without issue to carry on the family name or genes. :wink:

Luckily for Capricorn, things incline to improve with age.:biggrin:
 

Blacknight

Well-known member
I'm still going to lobby for Placidus, putting your nodes in the 4th/10th, as I think your response to dr. Farr fits very well with how I'm seeing my own nodes. Of course, you should go with the chart that seems to best speak to you about yourself.

That said, I was struck by how similar this was to my own experiences.
Curiously, I find it quite surprising that the NN often tends to be a lucky influence relative to the sign and house it's in. I come from a dysfunctional family so this is quite mind-boggling to me. The thought of my life's Karmic lesson being about becoming a leader and manager in that pandemonium is very unappealing to me. It's terrifying. Even just the thought of involving myself by trying to establish order sorta sounds like some version of human secrifice to me. The ill patterns are like a vacuum so chances are I would be sucked in, in no time. As it is, I rather not even consider "family" and "roots" a value. Values are also guiding principles because they likely form a solid core of who you are, what you believe, and where to be going forward. I refuse the place I come from to be what defines me. I believe in transformation. I've made up my mind that's something that I have to do for my mental and physical well being. I feel like disassociating from my background is what delivers a sense of liberation in and of itself. Like it's the only way forward. I guess this seems like going against my NN. Unless perhaps, this placement could be interpreted differently from another perspective....

That is, you're younger than me. What you've said here might better suite me 20 years ago. But if you read the thread I linked to, you saw I have a similar reaction to this Cap NN in 4th nodal placement. I too am very put off by the notion that this placement is all about domesticity and roots. That thread was all about me seeking for some deeper explanation. And now, with your account on this thread, I'm beginning to think there's something about this rejection of home life that is in fact a condition of the Cap NN in 4th.

I have the 10th/4th nodes with the SN in cancer in the tenth & the North node in capricorn in the 4th house as well. (Thread I started.) I would also completely agree with everything both of you said. I come from a totally dysfunctional family as well. And to be clear I'll define the dysfunction. My dad is a chronic alcoholic whose behavior wrecked the family from a young age to the point that my parents continually argued, separated, got back together & then separated until finally divorcing. I lived in 9 different houses 1 apartment (displaced from a house fire) and also two family friend's homes until I moved out at 19 & I have lived in three different apartments since then. My youngest sister bless her heart also had what i can only describe as daily stress induced bipolar episodes of literally freaking out screaming & crying for no joke... 2 to 4 hours a day or broken up into separate episodes. I think she may have gotten better, but hey I don't live there anymore. :wink: Anyway, when I moved out my dad was also homeless.... so he moved in with me yayyy. He also got himself kicked out for getting in a fight with another apartment tenant. He stayed at an alcoholics rehabilitation center for several months until he found a room at a house belonging to a "recovering alcoholic" who eventually went batshit drinking so much that she had to go to the hospital & stopped making payments on the house, so my dad was forced out & he moved back in with me because he had no job. The economy in my area suck$, so he continued to only find sporadic work (he's a painter) for several months at a time.

He finally has solid work right now & he'll be getting his SS at the end of the year. At this point I'm ready for an extended vacation from my family & I'll probably just stop by for a couple holidays a year. If having the north node in the 4th house means a focus or luck with the family then I'm guessing that relates to focusing development on my own family.

You might be wondering why I let my dad stay with me... it's because he's my dad & he's a great guy when he's not drinking as many alcoholics are, but I can't baby sit him & frankly you can't change an addict; they can only change themselves. & I love my sister when she's not freaking out. I just can't live with her mood swings. In the end, I can only ever deal with my family from a distance except for my mom who I love dearly & who did the best she could with the circumstances she was dealt. I have absolutely no issues with her. And I will also say that my childhood was not abusive (beyond constant verbal fighting) and I know I am lucky to have parents who at least cared about me despite their flaws & who want the best for me. The problem is dysfunction & all the friction involved.
 
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