tsmall
Premium Member
Thank you, Tsmall. After some pondering and reading of ancient texts, I can't agree. A peregrini had no basic rights afforded to citizens at all, not even the right to an attorney or trial by jury. Summary judgment and execution was common. A defendant in his detriment or fall from grace may be debilitated but still has the right to defend himself, but not so when peregrine.
Correct. To bring this back to astrology, and how to view peregrine planets...a peregrine planet has no rights afforded to it. This is not dissimilar to my postulation that peregrine planets have no inherent resources available to them. Going back to the wiki article you linked, those peregrini were completely at the mercy of whomever ruled the civitates peregrinae in which they dwelled. Some were good, some were not so great. Again tying this back to astrology, this is why it is said that peregrine planets are completely at the mercy of their rulers.
Most important, they couldn't marry citizens and if they cohabited, their children were illegitimate. Ptolomey gives Rome to Leo. That means that Sun/citizens of Leo couldn't marry the natural compliment, Sun in Aquarius. The children of Leo (Sag) are of the same triplicity, and those of Aquarius are Romulus and Remus. Not citizens? Illegitimate? I don't think so.
Ok...why? Remember that we are trying to tie the use of the word peregrine as a description to a planet with no essential dignity, and not trying to pass judgement on what we believe to be fair. Astrology is a language, and I believe from your earlier posts that you understand that. Which is why I was so excited that you traced down the root definition, as well as the connotations given for the word.
My next deciding factor is on page 115 of Christian Astrology, Lily lists a separate score for fall, detriment and peregrine. It makes no sense to list them separately if they are one and the same. That would be like being charged with both armed robbery and unlawful use of a firearm. They may be able to get away with it but that doesn't make it correct or in line with the spirit of the law. Double jeopardy is also ruled out. I realize that the page where Lily defines peregrine seems to allow the possibility that one in debility could also be peregrine. But, he is no more perfect than you or I and has made som typographical errors. It makes no sense that he would score the debilities next to the dignities, if they were not to be treated together under the category of essential dignities, the latter being a negative dignity. After all, our negative qualities are part of our overall dignity. So, where did Lily learn about peregriation?
Probably from Bonatti, who got it from the Persians. I can acknowledge your argument, as mine was the same. The key is in understanding that debility, as well as dignity, can stack (to quote Kai.) Why, for example, does Saturn often get to be almuten of Libra? Especially between the 1st and 6th degrees in a day chart? Because there, Saturn has dignity by exaltation, term and tripilcity. See how dignity can stack? Saturn has way more dignity in the 1st degrees of Libra than Venus, hands down.
The Introduction to the Science of the Judgments of the Stars, Sahl Ibn Bishr lists 10 debilities, the 8th being, “...when a planet is in a domicile in which it has no testimony, ie no dignity, ie it is where it is not in its own domicile or in its own exaltation or in its own triplicity, etc., and when it is peregrine and already being pursued by the Sun, ie when it is before the Sun. http://books.google.com/books?id=i9g-_JFVNJcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=peregrine&f=false I believe the etc could include the debility portion of the list of testimonies. Being in fall or detriment is a testimony, don't you think?
You have this book? Jealolus. It's on my list.
I believe that you are misreading Saul. What sooo many ancient authors leave out, because they assume knowlegede on the part of the reader, are the specifics in every statement.
You already answered this question yourself.
A defendant in his detriment or fall from grace may be debilitated but still has the right to defend himself, but not so when peregrine.
Again, correct. Ok, so I'm not a terribly religious person, but the best way I can think at the moment to explain it is...consider the story of Jesus. Because it is from the same time period as we are discussing, and applies. Jesus could be considered as peregrini, since all of Judea was under Roman rule, Isralites were peregrine, with "overseers" that came from the locals and who were looking for favor and controlling the population as per that same article you linked to.
In this analogy, Jesus is not only peregrine, but in detriment. What happened to him? We could say that his peregrination stacked with his debility...and ouchies.
Some translate Ptolemy using the word alien, for peregrine. ..."Disjunct" and "alien" are the names applied to those divisions of the zodiac which have none whatever of the aforesaid familiarities with one another. These are the ones which belong neither to the class of commanding or obeying, beholding or of equal power, and furthermore they are found (p79) to be entirely without share in the four aforesaid aspects, opposition, trine, quartile, and sextile, and are either one or five signs apart; for those which are one sign apart are as it were averted from one another and, though they are two, bound the angle of one, and those that are five signs apart divide the whole circle into unequal parts, while the other aspects make an equal division of the perimeter.......They share, however, in the similarity in the same way; just as, on the contrary, when they are found in alien regions belonging to the opposite sect, a great part of their proper power is paralyzed, because the temperament which arises from the dissimilarity of the signs produces a different and adulterated nature....” http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/1B*.html#23 Here the word peregrine is used
http://books.google.com/books?id=D5...wAA#v=onepage&q=Tetrabiblos peregrine&f=false
I am almost following you here...
Now, Ptolemy seems to be saying that those in detriment and fall (“belonging to the opposite sect”) are similarly debilitated, but he is still making the distinction that the peregrine signs are those 1 and 6 signs distant. For sun, that would be Virgo and Capricorn, based on Leo, Taurus and Virgo, based on Aries, Pisces and Cancer, based on his sign of Detriment, Scorpio and Pisces based on the sign of his fall, where Sun is presently. Of course, Sun has dignity in fire by day and some face degrees, so would not be peregrine there. I should also mention that the programers of Kepler software, using Ptolemy's essential dignities, do not show planets peregrine that are in detriment or fall, again, because those qualities are part of the dignity scoring.
But at this point you have completely lost me. Mostly because you are comparing apples to oranges. And I'm not terribly concerned with what any software, including the couple that I use, do for dignity. I prefer to figure it out for myself, because software will still be biased based on the opinions or misunderstandings of the programmer.
I guess I can't be 100% sure unless and until I track down some of these ancient texts and translate those parts. But for now I will consider sun not peregrine in Libra and Aquarius.
I would need to spend a bit more time with the rest of what you have posted, and currently am pressed so unable to address your personal experiences...and for the record, I have a couple of planets that are peregrine and debilitated as well.
To speak to the bolded part of this statement...I personally would not consider Sun to be peregrine in Libra, because that is the "solar half." There is well documented precident for considering that the Sun in any sign from Leo to Capricorn is in his "own half," and that the Moon in signs from Aquarius to Cancer is in her "own half."
quote from Benjamin Dykes, Introductions to Astrology, pp. 59-60, originally translated from al-Quabisi
And the half of the circle which is from the beginning of Leo up to the end of Capricorn is called the "greatest half," and it is the Sun's half; because the Sun has sovereignty in this whole half just like the planets do in their own bounds. And the other half, which is from the beginning of Aquarius up to the end of Cancer, is called the "least half"; because the Moon likewise has sovereignty in this whole half, just like the Sun does in the greatest one.