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  #26  
Unread 11-22-2015, 11:19 PM
Dr.Time Dr.Time is offline
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Dr. Farr posted the following comment 15 July 2014

Oh, I see. Hope he's ok.

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  #27  
Unread 11-22-2015, 11:25 PM
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

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Oh, I see. Hope he's ok.
Dr. Farr last logged in beginning October 2015 - maybe send him an email or pm
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  #28  
Unread 12-01-2015, 09:15 AM
Kernowerno Kernowerno is offline
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

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Originally Posted by oleanna View Post
What, if this kind of typing and answering is already an expression of an opinion? I'd say there is nothing insulting intended, not as far as I can read or sense.
We are all different in thoughts, understanding and expression, and shouldn't we exercise some freedom and tolerance to this fact here in the forum?

Just my opinion
I absolutely agree. If I came across as harsh I apologise Jupiter. I would like to know what your preferred house system is though I understand your opinion about opinions, but I would like your opinion on a preferred house system?
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  #29  
Unread 12-01-2015, 02:24 PM
oleanna oleanna is offline
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

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I absolutely agree. If I came across as harsh I apologise Jupiter. I would like to know what your preferred house system is though I understand your opinion about opinions, but I would like your opinion on a preferred house system?
Who can decide about "harsh" definiton? There is a lot really impolite stuff going on in this forum, - and i think the first thing you like to get here is an answer, - and Jupiterasc gives an answer, quick and often on the point. I find that in itself friendly. Lot of people do not even thank for that. as if this was a supermarket and they had ordered and already paid for what they get.
Again, my opinion

and now my opinion about house systems.
I use Regiomontanus or whole sign when i do horary, and Placidus when i work on natal charts.
It's what i work with best over the last years.

you said you think Astrology should call itself a science.
Why do you think so?
For me it works fine without the reputation or confirmation of the others out there.
It works for me, basta.
It's sometimes correct in results, sometimes, close, sometimes it just makes me change my way of thinking, or my way of understanding a thing, - or it delivers new definition (very often in natal charts)
This all is of value for me.
It's not a religion, and might not be a science, - but it works.

but please, tell me, why do you think it should be a science?

Last edited by oleanna; 12-01-2015 at 02:27 PM.
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  #30  
Unread 12-01-2015, 03:15 PM
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

Because I'm still an astrology novice, I use Placidus because it's a standard on many sites and most people are familiar with it, so if i need help, it might be the easiest chart style to use. Because my husband has intercepted houses and some planets are close to a cusp but close in degrees to a planet in the previous house or sign, I sometimes try to look at his chart, choosing Koch if that's a site option. I don't understand the different house system differences, but it moves planets a bit so it's easier for me to get an overview, without being overwhelmed. I'm not sure how any of this should make a difference between the two house systems.
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  #31  
Unread 12-01-2015, 05:09 PM
Kernowerno Kernowerno is offline
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

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but please, tell me, why do you think it should be a science?
What I mean is that a scientific approach, one where empiricism and thorough analysis are combined to ascertain a greater degree of certainty, is what should be aspired to. Although intuition inevitably has a great deal to contribute, as with physics or other classic disciplines which require and exercise rigorous methodologies in order to be regarded as worthy contributors to human endeavour - where intuition is referred to as a 'hunch', ultimately reason and results must bear out any speculation or theory. It's not that I think it 'should' be a science, more that it is a science, and should be pursued and practised as such. We live in an age of reason, where wooly ideas and hocus-pocus can play no part.
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  #32  
Unread 12-01-2015, 07:06 PM
oleanna oleanna is offline
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

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Originally Posted by Kernowerno View Post
What I mean is that a scientific approach, one where empiricism and thorough analysis are combined to ascertain a greater degree of certainty, is what should be aspired to. Although intuition inevitably has a great deal to contribute, as with physics or other classic disciplines which require and exercise rigorous methodologies in order to be regarded as worthy contributors to human endeavour - where intuition is referred to as a 'hunch', ultimately reason and results must bear out any speculation or theory. It's not that I think it 'should' be a science, more that it is a science, and should be pursued and practised as such. We live in an age of reason, where wooly ideas and hocus-pocus can play no part.
Hm, i see your point, of course, - but, talk to a psychologist, or even a psychiatrist and listen what they have to say. - I mean, as soon as the human being is involved it gets hard to work with clear measurements.
it's foggy on both ends, - the "producers" have opinions, emotions, judgements, etc - as well as the receivers. Not to talk of the topic itself, which then deals with human "material".
There is a couple of studies out there, specially done in France, as far as i can remember, and they brought some interesting results, - but nothing clear enough to be called science, i'm afraid.
I am a sort of definite capricorn, Sun, Asc, Venus, Mars and Mercury in Cap, - so i'm not the type of person that falls easily for a thing like astrology. It look me some years or more to come closer and finally put it in a frame that suits me well enough to say: yes, there is something seriously true about it all.
That's so far enough for myself.
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  #33  
Unread 12-02-2015, 09:08 AM
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

Here is something about the most extensive scientific research on astrology. The end result was that it fits with the sidereal zodiac, and angularity of planets are of greatest importance.

http://www.astrology-and-science.com/g-hist2.htm
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  #34  
Unread 12-02-2015, 09:12 AM
oleanna oleanna is offline
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

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Originally Posted by Arena View Post
Here is something about the most extensive scientific research on astrology. The end result was that it fits with the sidereal zodiac, and angularity of planets are of greatest importance.

http://www.astrology-and-science.com/g-hist2.htm
Thanks for that, Arena! Gauquelin was the leading expert on this for many many years. The first book about astrology that got into my hands was his study about profession and astrology. quite interesting.
Thanks a lot for posting this!
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  #35  
Unread 12-02-2015, 04:30 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

For me, it's whole-signs. The word "science" simply means " knowledge", but I think it implies a systematic method. Under this definition Astrology would qualify, since it provides knowledge in an organized, categorical way. " Modern Science", which strives to explain Everything in a materialistic, impersonal, objective way using the "Scientific Method" has overshadowed every other definition (in the Modern world). Astrology is all about Correlation. Modern science is all about Causation.

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  #36  
Unread 12-02-2015, 09:50 PM
oleanna oleanna is offline
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
For me, it's whole-signs. The word "science" simply means " knowledge", but I think it implies a systematic method. Under this definition Astrology would qualify, since it provides knowledge in an organized, categorical way. " Modern Science", which strives to explain Everything in a materialistic, impersonal, objective way using the "Scientific Method" has overshadowed every other definition (in the Modern world). Astrology is all about Correlation. Modern science is all about Causation.

thanks for that! a good way to put it!
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  #37  
Unread 12-02-2015, 10:19 PM
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
For me, it's whole-signs. The word "science" simply means " knowledge", but I think it implies a systematic method. Under this definition Astrology would qualify, since it provides knowledge in an organized, categorical way. " Modern Science", which strives to explain Everything in a materialistic, impersonal, objective way using the "Scientific Method" has overshadowed every other definition (in the Modern world). Astrology is all about Correlation. Modern science is all about Causation.

David, I'd suggest a narrower definition of science that is consistent with how actual astronomers, geologists, microbiologists, physical chemists, &c define it today. Otherwise, it just makes astrologers look like a bunch of dummies who don't even know what science is. Scientists don't use the word "science" in the broadly inclusive sense of systematic knowledge, and astrologers are simply not going to change that. Oftentimes causation is important in science, but it isn't by a long shot the only way that science works. Statistics are widely used in science, for example, and they only show tendencies and probabilities related to the correlation of variables. Some scientists are involved in modeling systems' behaviour, rather than cause-and-effect, because, for one thing, a complex system typically has feedback loops.

We wouldn't classify the following fields as sciences, yet they, too "[provide] knowledge in an organized, categorical way." Consider the fields of accountancy, history, legal studies, economics, or modern languages.
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  #38  
Unread 12-03-2015, 11:19 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

I would make a clear distinction between Pure Science, like Astrology, which is about understanding and appreciating the patterns of Nature, and Modern Applied Science, in which knowledge of cause and effect is used to manipulate and control Nature (including Human nature). Your point is well-taken--from now on I'll place them in separate categories. Modern Applied Science takes anything it can use from Pure Science, and applies it in ways to which Pure scientists might object. It does both bad and good things, but the former is of serious concern.

Last edited by david starling; 12-03-2015 at 11:29 AM.
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  #39  
Unread 12-03-2015, 07:58 PM
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

David, thanks-- but how about just sticking with definitions of science that scientists use, and that most scientifically educated people adopt? An astrologer trying to re-do what science is and is not, in any meaningful way, just isn't going to happen. Scientists know who they are and what they do. So far as I can determine from many threads of this nature across 3 astrology forums, most amateur astrologers do not know what science is and what it does.

Your distinction doesn't hold up.

Many card-carrying scientists do what is colloquially known as curiosity-driven science. It isn't applied at all. Curiosity-driven scientists simply want to learn how their corner of nature, physical processes, or the cosmos works. They may suggest that their research has practical application, but the curiosity-driven scientists are not developing that application themselves.

Much of the scientific research that goes on in applied science (and here we might throw in engineering) has nothing whatever to do with "knowledge of cause and effect ... used to manipulate and control Nature (including Human nature.)" Surely you can think of examples that contradict your own statement.

Many ecologists are involved in habitat restoration projects. Many testify as expert witnesses against corporate projects designed to control nature. It is hard to see how an astronomer charting remote galaxies via the Hubble telescope is trying in anyway to manipulate and control nature, let alone human beings.

Moreover, all kinds of people who are not scientists try to manipulate and control both nature and their fellow citizens. Corporate advertising and military dictators would be two examples.

Why not just take science for what it is-- according to people with doctorate degrees in it who teach science. And then if you must define astrology, define it for what it is-- a system of divination.
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  #40  
Unread 12-03-2015, 09:08 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

Scientists have their own difficulties defining their profession. "Hard" science devalues "soft", even to the extent of denying it belongs in the same category. Astronomy shares a Muse with Astrology and Navigation; History has one, and geometry, agriculture and architecture have Muse connections as well. As for cause and effect: Vital for Engineering, and of great interest to applied science in general (what caused that structure to fail, so the problem can be solved?). Historians are curious about why human culture developed as it has--something must have caused it. Something must have caused the stars to form, and the Earth to be able to support life. Not accepting a phenomenon at face value is an intrinsic factor in the development of Modern Science, in both the Pure and Applied fields. Anyway, if Economics, Sociology and Psychology are sciences, so is Astrology! The more we know, the more we realize how little we really know.
Just as an aside, you are an expert Astrologer, with beautiful Thought Waves. Thank you for responding!

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  #41  
Unread 12-03-2015, 10:12 PM
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

David, flattery will get you everywhere. Hey, thanks. I think both of us enjoy a good, yet low-key debate.

Academically, the hard and natural sciences tend to belong to the same faculties (colleges in US universities,) unless the departments are big enough to split into something else, like life sciences. They still have more in common with one another than with, say, the humanities. But even within the same geology department, you can get the hard scientist geophysicist, and the natural scientist paleontologist. There is reductionism in science, moreover, where biology gets explained by chemistry and chemistry gets explained by physics.

The social sciences as sciences are really misnamed. Many of these departments got their starts in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, when the sociologists, anthropologists, political scientists, &c thought that they could develop sciences of human society. But this has proved to be largely illusory, with a couple of exceptions: physical anthropology and the "hard" parts of archaeology; and the parts of psychology that impinge on neuroscience. Psychology as a whole is probably the most scientific of the lot due to their focus on clinical studies as the source of evidence; with something like cultural anthropology and cultural geography as the least scientific. Part of the problem is that the top-down scientific method isn't the best way to study people's belief systems as they understand themselves. When studying a traditional society in the Amazon, for instance, anthropologists couldn't just pluck people out of their homes and stick them in a laboratory; and if by some chance they did, the laboratory would bear no resemblance to the subjects' home.

We have a lot of laws in the sciences, governing gravity, optics, and thermodynamics, to name a few. Social scientists have never come up with laws governing human behaviour.
The state of our nation's economy and Congress should convince us that economics and political science are not predictably scientific.

Things are a little different if we return to the past, and study the origins of science in ancient Greece, when astronomy and astrology shared the muse Urania. But back-then is not today.

Quote:
if Economics, Sociology and Psychology are sciences, so is Astrology!
No, first off: economics and sociology are only partly scientific. Psychology is becoming more scientific all the time, but this is not the direction of "psychological astrology" for whom the godfather is Carl Jung and his associates.

Even so, astrology lacks a serious research component or a reasonably-agreed upon methodology whereby its truth-claims could be tested. Tests so far have tended to disprove astrological propositions. Part of the problem is that we have still inherited an astrology from ancient times, in which the gods' attributes were determined first, prior to some planets being named for them and then assumed to display the gods' `a priori qualities. The Gauquelins made a valiant start at statistical studies, but (a) their conclusions indicated a stellar influence-- that was nevertheless very different than conventional chart-readings; and (b) their methods have been criticized and findings not duplicable, yet nobody has come up with superior testing methods.

Why do you even want to call astrology a science? I don't.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #42  
Unread 12-04-2015, 05:03 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

No, it's not J.A. replying, but you might find this interesting.
http://www.uraniatrust.org/astrology...ivination.html

Last edited by david starling; 12-04-2015 at 05:28 AM.
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  #43  
Unread 12-04-2015, 05:12 AM
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

David, the link didn't come up.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #44  
Unread 12-04-2015, 05:23 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Red face Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

Yeah, obviously not J.A.'s work. I'll see what I can do...alright, try it now.

Last edited by david starling; 12-04-2015 at 05:30 AM.
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  #45  
Unread 12-04-2015, 05:55 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

Waybread, it seems to be working now (notice how I avoided the "that's what she said" opportunity?).
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  #46  
Unread 12-04-2015, 09:16 PM
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

Good article, David, by a knowledgeable and thoughtful author. Have you read Cornelius's The Moment of Astrology? If not, I think you'd enjoy it as he gets into his article topics in some detail.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #47  
Unread 12-05-2015, 05:29 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

Well, I've decided to go with the divination concept for now. That's one advantage of having such a Piscean chart; changing the angle of view is easy if it feels right. I'm already hooked on numerology (basic--nothing fancy), and am sympatico with Tarot and I Ching, which are definitely in the divination category. So, why not? My "grounding -sign" is Virgo (desc. and my only significant Earth-sign position) and Virgo is essentially agnostic, as I understand it. Divination, art, science, or religion--I really am just looking for resonant correlations. On the other hand, Cornelius really has put a lot of intelligent thought into this topic and is definitely worth a read. Thanks!
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  #48  
Unread 12-05-2015, 06:10 PM
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

Classifying astrology is elusive, but whatever else it might be, it is a system of divination. But wishes for your continuing pursuit of the nature of astrology, David.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we値l change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #49  
Unread 12-05-2015, 06:52 PM
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Smile Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

Yes, very elusive. I looked up "divination" in Wikipedia and of the four categories described, not one included Astrology--I think the author left it out to avoid controversy. I use basic Numerology because I can see its correlations, and apply it to the Tropical signs based on the numbering patterns of the signs and houses. The Kabbalahlistic Tree of Life also, which relates to the Major Arcana of Paul Case's Tarot system. Is Astrology your only form of divination?
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  #50  
Unread 12-05-2015, 08:24 PM
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Re: what chart style have you found to be most accuret?

Technically speaking, I've always understood 'divination' as trying to know the will of God (or the gods) by foretelling the future.

Is it weird that it's never occurred to me that astrology isn't divination, at least the way it was meant to be practised certainly is.
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