Romance/Relationships Yield Sorrow

StillOne

Well-known member
So I finally figured this out!

When I begin a romance things are largely exciting, like with most people. However, as the romance starts building sadness overcomes me. I never really picked up on it as that before, since there's always so many emotions flying at that time. However, it never disappears and only keeps getting worse the deeper involved I become. The sorrow gets progressively worse until I have no choice but to end the relationship.

In the past I always thought that I wasn't ready. Or, I possibly thought that the woman wasn't the right one... etc.

Now I realize that it's unavoidable as I look back on ALL my relationships and the same thing happens without fail.

I came across a really good definition of this feature in my chart a couple of days ago and it was very illuminating.
 
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rahu

Banned
hi StillOne
you have Saturn conjunct the south node and pluto is square these. this can be a very despondent aspect and often shows a restrictive if not emotionally abusive childhood. often reality forces you to grow up so quickly that you essentially have not childhood freedom or joy. the midpoint of Saturn/Pluto is at 19leo50.
your venus/mars midpoint is at 21aqua10.
so your relationships bring out the despondent feelings and memories of your childhood.
this pattern suggest that at a early age you subconsciously had been disappointed emotional so much, that as you matured you came to feel anytime your emotions were stimulated that this would lead to loss and separation.
with sun conjunct to Uranus , it seems that now, consciously, when you start to feel emotional intimacy, you suddenly breakoff the relationship to save yourself the emotional pain that lurks in your subconscious.

rahu
 

katydid

Well-known member
Is it this:

Saturn, the ruler of the 7th, is in the 12th, conjunct the South Node.
And Saturn squares Pluto in Libra in 4th, ruler of the 5th of love affairs.

Saturn in the 12th, conjunct the South Node would be debilitated and squaring Pluto/4th, would be intensified and perhaps paralyzed, emotionally.

Saturn/SN/Pluto = Suffering started together with others, Mourning and bereavement, the tendency to sacrifice oneself for others, suffering from others

[from Reinhold Ebertin]
 
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Chrysalis

Well-known member
Is it not just simply venus conjunct neptune, sextile pluto ? I've got similar aspects to this.

I've got venus conjunct pluto, sextile neptune, and i can be the same.
 

StillOne

Well-known member
Hi, yes I think my chart reeks of this actually. You all are right even though that wasn't the particular aspect I found. I think you can see themes of this stuff across my horoscope.

The particular find that I had was that the ruler of the 12th is in the 5th. I've tried searching for this particular meaning before but have come up short. However, I think astrofix finally got to the 12th house rulers and here's some of the things she mentions about this particular situation. Also, it probably doesn't help that the 12th house ruler, Mercury, falls into Scorpio... :ninja:

RULER OF THE 12TH HOUSE IN THE 5TH HOUSE
The activities of the 12th house serve the agenda of the 5th house. Releasing grief and sorrow, solitude, escapism, psychic activity and becoming aware of self-sabotage serve creativity, personal self-expression, risk-taking, hobbies, romance and interactions with children... You experience grief and sorrow through romance... The self-undoing comes through romance...
edited for brevity
courtesy: https://astrofix.net/ruler-of-the-12th-house-in-houses/

hi StillOne
you have Saturn conjunct the south node and pluto is square these. this can be a very despondent aspect and often shows a restrictive if not emotionally abusive childhood. often reality forces you to grow up so quickly that you essentially have not childhood freedom or joy. the midpoint of Saturn/Pluto is at 19leo50.
your venus/mars midpoint is at 21aqua10.
so your relationships bring out the despondent feelings and memories of your childhood.
this pattern suggest that at a early age you subconsciously had been disappointed emotional so much, that as you matured you came to feel anytime your emotions were stimulated that this would lead to loss and separation.
with sun conjunct to Uranus , it seems that now, consciously, when you start to feel emotional intimacy, you suddenly breakoff the relationship to save yourself the emotional pain that lurks in your subconscious.

rahu

Yes Rahu, very accurate. My childhood was disappointing emotionally. My father was missing from a very young age and my mother had to work. So I was quite a bit alone from day one.

I actually think the moon in the 12th protected me from a young age by saving me from my environment. Gemini moon isn't very emotional anyway. However, since I'm Cancer rising, I'm very emotional now but I wasn't then.

I think your analysis is spot on!

Is it this:

Saturn, the ruler of the 7th, is in the 12th, conjunct the South Node.
And Saturn squares Pluto in Libra in 4th, ruler of the 5th of love affairs.

Saturn in the 12th, conjunct the South Node would be debilitated and squaring Pluto/4th, would be intensified and perhaps paralyzed, emotionally.

Saturn/SN/Pluto = Suffering started together with others, Mourning and bereavement, the tendency to sacrifice oneself for others, suffering from others

[from Reinhold Ebertin]

Yes Katy, so I think when we move from 5th house romance and fun and eventually head to 7th house committed relationship stuff, Saturn in the 12th square Pluto starts making things worse...

Very interesting excerpt from Ebertin, I hadn't read that before (is it from COSI?). It only confirms it. Luckily my emotions aren't paralyzed but as you can tell from the op, the Moon in the 12th has made it tough to sort through emotions to figure out what's what.

Is it not just simply venus conjunct neptune, sextile pluto ? I've got similar aspects to this.

I've got venus conjunct pluto, sextile neptune, and i can be the same.

Hi Chrys, yes most definitely Venus conjunct Neptune plays a part in this as well! That's why I've been on this merry-go-round for so long! The allure of romance has always been there and I become delusional over it every time...

However, what you describe in your horoscope, I see as quite different than mine. Venus conjunct Pluto is much different than Venus conjunct Neptune even with the sextile aspect... IMO of course.
 
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ashriia

Well-known member
Just a question, do you feel able to be yourself partnered?


When I begin a romance things are largely exciting, like with most people. However, as the romance starts building sadness overcomes me. I never really picked up on it as that before since there's always so many emotions flying at that time. However, it never disappears and only keeps getting worse the deeper involved I become. The sorrow gets progressively worse until I have no choice but to end the relationship.
 

katydid

Well-known member
Stillone:
Yes Katy, so I think when we move from 5th house romance and fun and eventually head to 7th house committed relationship stuff, Saturn in the 12th square Pluto starts making things worse...

Very interesting excerpt from Ebertin, I hadn't read that before (is it from COSI?). It only confirms it. Luckily my emotions aren't paralyzed but as you can tell from the op, the Moon in the 12th has made it tough to sort through emotions to figure out what's what.
=================================================


Yes, that Ebertin excerpt is from COSI. It is from Saturn/Dragonshead=Pluto

It is a description of your Saturn conjunct South Node=square to Pluto.


I am glad it is not paralysis, as that makes it much harder. I have seen emotional paralysis with 12th house Moons and Saturn/Pluto afflictions.

I think it is pretty nice for you that your Moon is in Gemini. :wink: I think that running your emotional process through your mind/head might be a good thing with all of the 12th house emphasis. It gives you the ability to be logical and rational and make clear assessments as you try and sort things out.

As you say, it is still tough to do so, but I think Gemini Moon is better for that process than many are.
 
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ashriia

Well-known member
I feel it but am I being deluded?

this is merc rx time, so my interpretation of your words here, is that you yes, feel able to be yourself. [let me know if ive misinterpreted you]

As for being deluded, that's a personal question and one which I have no jurisdiction to answer. But if you mention it, maybe you feel that you are deceiving yourself?

I asked you this because 12th moon can create issues when it comes to relationships. There is usually so much going on feeling wise that doesn't get voiced to the partner. I don't know if you are like me at all, I don't have saturn in the 12th, so... But I expect my partner to know how I feel about them. Just like they should know, somehow! Though it obviously doesn't work that way. The thing is, I think we have to work 10x harder than people with planet xyz not in the 12th, for that planets themes to be known or seen. People just aren't equipped to know how we are feeling just on intuition alone. I don't mean to be getting off topic here..
But I think wanting to end relationships can be a result also of just feeling more balanced alone. Maybe it's more to do with your sun/uranus conjunction. freedom feels more natural, than being partnered? you also have venus semi-square uranus. I have sun opp uranus, and venus quincunx uranus - and I can tell you I've ended just about every friendship and relationship in my life, its always my doing. Except for one time. lol. I'm so good at it, it's pretty ridiculous.:pinched::bandit:

Gemini is always on the look out for a twin too, so there is that never ending quest, even if you feel more comfortable alone!
 

IleneK

Premium Member
Hello, my friend S1.
You know this subject interests me deeply as well, but I am not certain that the 12th house is connected with it. Of course with my loaded 12th house it is often difficult to be certain of anything, and that is just the way I like it :smile:

However, I'm going to throw a bit of a wrench in it here and come at it alternately like this: using whole sign houses, you have Moon in the 12th. And a debilitated Saturn, ruler of the 7th, is hightlighted in the 1st rather than hidden in the 12th.

To me, Capricorn on the 7th is a sure indicator for the possibility of sadness, over and over again, in relationship. I am married to a really wonderful guy. The best. He is Capricorn rising, so the opposite of your Asc-Dsc. The matter of repeated arising of sadness is a key element in his psyche, since he was very young.

Coming back to your chart, the fact that your 7th house ruler might not be in the 12th but rather in your 1st brings this issue of sadness in relationship to your very essence, your core. To me, the condition of the ruler of the house, in this case a really unhappy Saturn in Cancer, will influence the playing out of the affairs of the 7th house. Simple and straightforward.

This would be in contrast to the astrofix author's suggestion that the ruler of a house would so dramatically affect the affairs of the house in which it resides. The affairs of the house mold and contain the expression of the planet within, rather than the planet within it affecting the overall expression of that house's affairs. And your Saturn's weakness by debility gives me even greater reservation about its ability to act and to influence.

I also think this recurring arising of sadness is a portending of what your psyche believes or anticipates will come about in relationship 7th, and the reason it occurs in romance is because relationship is romance's intention.

Anyway, just throwing out some ideas in case they may be of some interest or elucidation for anyone And to you, my dear S1, I am always wishing you the best. Anything can happen, anything can change, at anytime.:wink:
 

StillOne

Well-known member
this is merc rx time, so my interpretation of your words here, is that you yes, feel able to be yourself. [let me know if ive misinterpreted you]
Hi Ashriia, I don't feel that you've misinterpreted me at all. :sideways: I have always admired your excellent astrological opinion.

As for being deluded, that's a personal question and one which I have no jurisdiction to answer. But if you mention it, maybe you feel that you are deceiving yourself?
I definitely think I have unfortunately. :pinched: I would say Venus Nep is to blame here. But jeez, pick anything you want in my horoscope and it's there.

I asked you this because 12th moon can create issues when it comes to relationships. There is usually so much going on feeling wise that doesn't get voiced to the partner. I don't know if you are like me at all, I don't have saturn in the 12th, so... But I expect my partner to know how I feel about them. Just like they should know, somehow! Though it obviously doesn't work that way. The thing is, I think we have to work 10x harder than people with planet xyz not in the 12th, for that planets themes to be known or seen. People just aren't equipped to know how we are feeling just on intuition alone. I don't mean to be getting off topic here..
But I think wanting to end relationships can be a result also of just feeling more balanced alone. Maybe it's more to do with your sun/uranus conjunction. freedom feels more natural, than being partnered? you also have venus semi-square uranus. I have sun opp uranus, and venus quincunx uranus - and I can tell you I've ended just about every friendship and relationship in my life, its always my doing. Except for one time. lol. I'm so good at it, it's pretty ridiculous.:pinched::bandit:
Well I certainly agree that this is another feature in my chart that make relationships challenging. As you can see by what you have stated here, coupled with my findings, as well as others, there's just a lot of themes that point in a certain direction... I'll add even more when I answer Ilene below. :whistling:
Gemini is always on the look out for a twin too, so there is that never ending quest, even if you feel more comfortable alone!
Indeed, and this may not be everlasting. However, it has certainly been illuminating!
 

StillOne

Well-known member
Hello, my friend S1.
You know this subject interests me deeply as well, but I am not certain that the 12th house is connected with it. Of course with my loaded 12th house it is often difficult to be certain of anything, and that is just the way I like it :smile:
Hello Ilene,
Indeed, it is what it is either way... 12th house or not.

However, I'm going to throw a bit of a wrench in it here and come at it alternately like this: using whole sign houses, you have Moon in the 12th. And a debilitated Saturn, ruler of the 7th, is hightlighted in the 1st rather than hidden in the 12th.
Fine, let's say Saturn is in the 1st. Wouldn't it be even more difficult there? Saturn supposedly joys in the 12th so maybe it's not there...

To me, Capricorn on the 7th is a sure indicator for the possibility of sadness, over and over again, in relationship. I am married to a really wonderful guy. The best. He is Capricorn rising, so the opposite of your Asc-Dsc. The matter of repeated arising of sadness is a key element in his psyche, since he was very young.
To me, it's hard to compare the two situations. I think they're quite different personally.

The thing is that he's Cappy rising and Cancer Desc. I'm the reverse, with SN in Cancer and so NN in Cap. Saturn, ruler of the 7th, conj the SN. So I've been there done that. I'm heading towards Capricorn, away from Cancer, into a relatively independent sign if I'm correct.

IME, I don't want to be unhappy in a relationship with my sig other suffering as a result.

Coming back to your chart, the fact that your 7th house ruler might not be in the 12th but rather in your 1st brings this issue of sadness in relationship to your very essence, your core. To me, the condition of the ruler of the house, in this case a really unhappy Saturn in Cancer, will influence the playing out of the affairs of the 7th house. Simple and straightforward.
Unhappy Saturn that I'm moving away from...

This would be in contrast to the astrofix author's suggestion that the ruler of a house would so dramatically affect the affairs of the house in which it resides. The affairs of the house mold and contain the expression of the planet within, rather than the planet within it affecting the overall expression of that house's affairs. And your Saturn's weakness by debility gives me even greater reservation about its ability to act and to influence.
Pick your poison. This is where I think astrology is so fascinating, and where the argument about technique becomes interesting since we can both reach the same conclusion using different approaches. The key is arriving at the experience in question. Did you click the link and look at the whole definition? It's amazing! There are so many things in that one paragraph that I identify with it's crazy. The key, imo, is finding the themes that describe the experience... however you can.

I also think this recurring arising of sadness is a portending of what your psyche believes or anticipates will come about in relationship 7th, and the reason it occurs in romance is because relationship is romance's intention.
It certainly could be that as well!

Anyway, just throwing out some ideas in case they may be of some interest or elucidation for anyone And to you, my dear S1, I am always wishing you the best. Anything can happen, anything can change, at anytime.:wink:
Thanks Ilene, I always appreciate your insight and considerate approach. Thanks! :love:
 
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IleneK

Premium Member
Hello, StillOne.

However, I'm going to throw a bit of a wrench in it here and come at it alternately like this: using whole sign houses, you have Moon in the 12th. And a debilitated Saturn, ruler of the 7th, is hightlighted in the 1st rather than hidden in the 12th.

Fine, let's say Saturn is in the 1st. Wouldn't it be even more difficult there? Saturn supposedly joys in the 12th so maybe it's not there...

Mostly what I am suggesting is that it is a deeply ingrained habitual response in you by its being in the 1st house of your awarenes. And it is also conj the SN, which is what we come into this world knowing; it is inherent in us, the path of least resistance.

To me, Capricorn on the 7th is a sure indicator for the possibility of sadness, over and over again, in relationship. I am married to a really wonderful guy. The best. He is Capricorn rising, so the opposite of your Asc-Dsc. The matter of repeated arising of sadness is a key element in his psyche, since he was very young.

To me, it's hard to compare the two situations. I think they're quite different personally.

The thing is that he's Cappy rising and Cancer Desc. I'm the reverse, with SN in Cancer and so NN in Cap. Saturn, ruler of the 7th, conj the SN. So I've been there done that. I'm heading towards Capricorn, away from Cancer, into a relatively independent sign if I'm correct.

IME, I don't want to be unhappy in a relationship with my sig other suffering as a result.

I only intended to note the strength of the Cap-Can polarity in your respective lives being on the primary angles, and then the pattern of recurring sadness in the matters of self v other. His is Saturn in detriment ruling the Asc, so is clearly a 1st house matter. And yet 1st/7th cannot really be entirely separated. And your 7th house ruler in the 1st [if we take it that way] inextricably binds the affairs of your 1st and 7th houses even more that usual.

I also want to say clearly that I do not in any way think that this cycle of sadness cannot and, in fact, is not being transformed. Saturn has many archetypal facets from which we may partake to realize valuable meaning in support of relationship and self.

Coming back to your chart, the fact that your 7th house ruler might not be in the 12th but rather in your 1st brings this issue of sadness in relationship to your very essence, your core. To me, the condition of the ruler of the house, in this case a really unhappy Saturn in Cancer, will influence the playing out of the affairs of the 7th house. Simple and straightforward.


Unhappy Saturn that I'm moving away from...

I have no doubt about that, about your reworking and transforming the Saturn pattern you have described.

This would be in contrast to the astrofix author's suggestion that the ruler of a house would so dramatically affect the affairs of the house in which it resides. The affairs of the house mold and contain the expression of the planet within, rather than the planet within it affecting the overall expression of that house's affairs. And your Saturn's weakness by debility gives me even greater reservation about its ability to act and to influence.

Pick your poison. This is where I think astrology is so fascinating, and where the argument about technique becomes interesting since we can both reach the same conclusion using different approaches. The key is arriving at the experience in question. Did you click the link and look at the whole definition? It's amazing! There are so many things in that one paragraph that I identify with it's crazy. The key, imo, is finding the themes that describe the experience... however you can.

I did read the link and looked at how it worked in my chart. And it had a definition or two that fit VERY well. I just think that the ill of the house in question is determined primarily by the condition and influence, the essential and accidental dignity, of the planet that rules that house. And that clearly explains the pervasive sadness in the affairs of the house in which the ruler of my 12th is domiciled. As we both agree, there are many roads to Rome.:smile:

And also let me add that I am not trying to change your mind. I suppose I am always inclined to give weight to the simplest and most straightforward answer. That doesn't make it right. I just thought I would present it in case it shed some helpful light.

Ilene, I always appreciate your insight and considerate approach. Thanks! :love:

You are very welcome and I am very glad how this matter is being reshaped in your life.
 
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