Should the Electoral College Be Eliminated?

Dirius said:

So now you've changed your position to the "its not over yet". Guess you just can't go against actual data huh?

Data shows the death rate was much higher in NYC because Cuomo (democrat) was useless in handling the pandemic. As it is now, all the evidence shows the blue states have been performing much worse than red states. Lets also review some of the majestic blunders from NY state:

- Inefficient bureaucratic delays when purchasing medical/protective supplies.
- Not closing schools or business after the pandemic had begun its spread (took them one month to begin their lockdown).
- Sending infected covid19 patients into nursing homes, killing over 6000 people.

"Dr. Frieden said that if the state and city had adopted widespread social-distancing measures a week or two earlier, including closing schools, stores and restaurants, then the estimated death toll from the outbreak might have been reduced by 50 to 80 percent."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/08/nyregion/new-york-coronavirus-response-delays.html

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Dirius, it would be helpful if you actually read what I wrote, vs. fabricating what you wish I'd said so that it would be simpler for you to launch an argument. (aka your "straw woman" debate fallacy.)

Surely you understand that all that "the data" show are deaths from cv 19 (and cases of CV-19.) These data make zero reference to political party.

David and I have patiently and repeatedly tried to explain the outlines of epidemiology to you.

No doubt New York elected officials and public health officers wish they had done things better and differently during the early stages of the virus, when they were metaphorically flying by the seat of their pants.

But you cannot make the case that somehow the state would have had a brilliant outcome had right-wingers been in charge.

"I think it's funny how" Governor Cuomo's approval rating among New Yorkers rose in connection with his handling of the pandemic. if Democratic bunglers were out there wantonly killing people, as you imply.

You still haven't answered my question as to why right-wing Republicans haven't managed to convince poor city dwellers to vote Republican.

Ironically, when Democratic leaders did what Dr. Frieden suggested, and closed restaurants and schools, the right-wingers cried bloody murder. And still are.

waybread said:

Dirius, it would be helpful if you actually read what I wrote, vs. fabricating what you wish I'd said so that it would be simpler for you to launch an argument. (aka your "straw woman" debate fallacy.)

Surely you understand that all that "the data" show are deaths from cv 19 (and cases of CV-19.) These data make zero reference to political party.

David and I have patiently and repeatedly tried to explain the outlines of epidemiology to you.

No doubt New York elected officials and public health officers wish they had done things better and differently during the early stages of the virus, when they were metaphorically flying by the seat of their pants.

But you cannot make the case that somehow the state would have had a brilliant outcome had right-wingers been in charge.

"I think it's funny how" Governor Cuomo's approval rating among New Yorkers rose in connection with his handling of the pandemic. if Democratic bunglers were out there wantonly killing people, as you imply.

You still haven't answered my question as to why right-wing Republicans haven't managed to convince poor city dwellers to vote Republican.

Ironically, when Democratic leaders did what Dr. Frieden suggested, and closed restaurants and schools, the right-wingers cried bloody murder. And still are.

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Well, this is the second time "the door has been opened" for Dirius to totally derail the thread by espousing his Neoliberal economic philosophy concerning why the poor city-dwellers have been duped into voting for Democrats.

I'm hereby exercising my right as OP to object to a discussion about that particular topic on this thread. (Now I'll see if it works.)

All,

As David mentioned, please get back on topic. Relate your post in SOME way to the Electoral College. This thread has already veered off that topic, so, going forward, please bring the focus BACK to the Electoral College.

Following up,

Tim

The electoral college was meant to keep presidential elections in check, a way to prevent any possible cheating to occur. Trump managed to win an election without a popular vote and in this case, he turned out to lack experience and qualifications to hold the presidency. In 3 months, our country braces itself for what I call it's most epic historic event since the Civil War in the early 1860s.

It's happened before, I posted about it earlier......


Jackson in 1824 (to John Quincy Adams); Samuel Tilden in 1876 (to Rutherford B. Hayes); Grover Cleveland in 1888 (to Benjamin Harrison); Al Gore in 2000 (to George W. Bush); Hillary Clinton in 2016 (to Donald J. Trump).

I expect in Nov Trump will win both the electoral college and the popular vote for he's gained a lot more support since 2016 with creating the strongest economy in decades (before the China virus brought the world economies to a grinding halt).... benefiting not just the wealthy but everyone from every minority group. He has the full support of the police unions and the people of faith. They voted for a pro-life President who respects their faiths. Many legal immigrants like his tough stance on illegal immigration.
His votes will round up to around 66 million this time around, bringing him both the electoral college & the popular vote & that will silence the Democrats who want to change the electoral system.

The main reason for keeping the electoral college is to maintain the federal republic and to ensure the minority voice is not drowned out by the majority. It's worked extremely well as the Founding Fathers knew it would and no need to change it ever.


The Electoral College, enshrined in the Constitution, is a system that forces candidates to tour all of the nation’s 3,007 counties, 64 parishes, and 41 independent cities. Otherwise, large blue or red states with high density populations would determine the Presidential election and nobody else would be heard.

Cheating is another good reason.

No need to change a good electoral system because someone a voter personally disliked got elected. We live in a democracy and even the small, rural areas need to be heard.

CapAquaPis said:

The electoral college was meant to keep presidential elections in check, a way to prevent any possible cheating to occur. Trump managed to win an election without a popular vote and in this case, he turned out to lack experience and qualifications to hold the presidency. In 3 months, our country braces itself for what I call it's most epic historic event since the Civil War in the early 1860s.

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blackbery said:

No, I don't think the Electoral College should be eliminated and it likely never will.....................



.for all the reasons I mentioned before it got turned into the China virus thread.



Of which David fully participated in and encouraged until he suddenly changed his tune & complained........and not allowed any
response to Way Bread's lengthy and rude postings.



It is what it is.

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That ship has sailed, regarding all the Covid-19 posts, including death-statistics. Waybread inadvertently opened the door in one post, and that, according to forum rules, gave Dirius the opportunity to make it all about Covid-19 statistics and who handled the pandemic worst, Trump or Governor Cuomo. Now I know to head that sort of thing off.
So, feel free to talk about the pandemic and rail against Dr. Fauci all you like. Dirius was able to make that happen. But now, he won't be able to turn the thread into an Econ 1A course in Neoliberal economic theory.

blackbery said:

It's happened before, I posted about it earlier......


Jackson in 1824 (to John Quincy Adams); Samuel Tilden in 1876 (to Rutherford B. Hayes); Grover Cleveland in 1888 (to Benjamin Harrison); Al Gore in 2000 (to George W. Bush); Hillary Clinton in 2016 (to Donald J. Trump).

I expect in Nov Trump will win both the electoral college and the popular vote for he's gained a lot more support since 2016 with creating the strongest economy in decades, benefiting not just the wealthy but everyone from every minority group. He has the full support of the police unions and the people of faith. His votes will round up to around 65 million this time around, bringing him botteh the electoral college and the popular vote.

The main reason for keeping the electoral college is to maintain the federal republic and to ensure the minority voice is not drowned out by the majority. It's worked extremely well as the Founding Fathers knew it would and no need to change it ever.


The Electoral College, enshrined in the Constitution, is a system that forces candidates to tour all of the nation’s 3,007 counties, 64 parishes, and 41 independent cities. Otherwise, large blue or red states with high density populations would determine the Presidential election and nobody else would be heard.

Cheating is another good reason.

No need to change a good electoral system because someone a voter personally disliked got elected. We live in a democracy and even the small, rural areas need to be heard.

Click to expand...

The Electoral College system caused Andrew Jackson to lose the Election in 1824. He denounced it as "unfair".

When it looked as though Mitt Romney would win the Popular-vote and yet lose to Obama due to the Electoral vote in 2012, Donald Trump denounced the Electoral College system as "incompatible with a democracy".

When the Electoral College system enabled Jeb Bush to ensure his brother George would win in Florida by intentionally delaying the final vote-count which was therefore completed too late to change the outcome, but which proved that Al Gore had, in fact, won BOTH the National Popular-vote AND the Electoral College Vote, it was the Democrats who denounced the Electoral College system.

So, it's the loser who blames losing on the Electoral system itself, and denounces it. And, it's the winner who makes up phony excuses for why it's absolutely fair and necessary.

You participated FULLY and prodded the China virus postings as long as you and Way Bread got to ignore Dr. Fauci's mistakes & got to ignore what Cuomo did in NY. When Dirius & I challenged the angry, misleading postings by you & Way Bread, you decided it needed to be closed down.....even though I had mentioned that it had been diverted long before then.

It is what it is. Can we please move on?

david starling said:

That ship has sailed, regarding all the Covid-19 posts, including death-statistics. Waybread inadvertently opened the door in one post, and that, according to forum rules, gave Dirius the opportunity to make it all about Covid-19 statistics and who handled the pandemic worst, Trump or Governor Cuomo. Now I know to head that sort of thing off.
So, feel free to talk about the pandemic and rail against Dr. Fauci all you like. Dirius was able to make that happen. But now, he won't be able to turn the thread into an Econ 1A course in Neoliberal economic theory.

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d

Are you against or for the electoral college?

You, personally. Not Trump or Jackson or Elizabeth Warren who is the latest Democrat to demand it be abolished.

Do you think it should be abolished or kept? Simple Yah or Nah will do.

david starling said:

The Electoral College system caused Andrew Jackson to lose the Election in 1824. He denounced it as "unfair".

When it looked as though Mitt Romney would win the Popular-vote and yet lose to Obama due to the Electoral vote in 2012, Donald Trump denounced the Electoral College system as "incompatible with a democracy".

When the Electoral College system enabled Jeb Bush to ensure his brother George would win in Florida by intentionally delaying the final vote-count which was therefore completed too late to change the outcome, but which proved that Al Gore had, in fact, won BOTH the National Popular-vote AND the Electoral College Vote, it was the Democrats who denounced the Electoral College system.

So, it's the loser who blames losing on the Electoral system itself, and denounces it. And, it's the winner who makes up phony excuses for why it's absolutely fair and necessary.

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blackbery said:

You participated FULLY and prodded the China virus postings as long as you and Way Bread got to ignore Dr. Fauci's mistakes & got to ignore what Cuomo did in NY. When Dirius & I challenged the angry, misleading postings by you & Way Bread, you decided it needed to be closed down.....even though I had mentioned that it had been diverted long before then.

It is what it is. Can we please move on?






d

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According to forum rules, it's necessary to "shut down" any potentially derailing topic immediately, before anyone can make a thread all about that topic and the OP gets stuck with it, like it or not.
That's why you couldn't stop JupiterAsc from attempting to derail your Impeachment thread--you didn't shut the Clinton memes down soon enough.

blackbery said:

Are you against or for the electoral college?

You, personally. Not Trump or Jackson or Elizabeth Warren who is the latest Democrat to demand it be abolished.

Do you think it should be abolished or kept? Simple Yah or Nah will do.

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It's in the Constitution. It has to be kept!

The Constitution can be amended.

If you don't believe that then why ask the question in the first place?

The only way to abolish the Electoral College is with an amendment to the Constitution. 2) That would require 2/3rds vote in Congress & 3/4th of the states to ratify an amendment.




So you won't answer yah or nah to your own thread.

It is what it is.

I'm moving on.

david starling said:

It's in the Constitution. It has to be kept!

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blackbery said:

The Constitution can be amended.

If you don't believe that then why ask the question in the first place?

The only way to abolish the Electoral College is with an amendment to the Constitution. 2) That would require 2/3rds vote in Congress & 3/4th of the states to ratify an amendment.




So you won't answer yah or nah to your own thread.

It is what it is.

I'm moving on.

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Too difficult to amend the Constitution, so, it's a matter of how Electoral votes are allocated. The winner-take-all method isn't the only one available.

I start with the 1890s, because the Civil War was in the past, and a new technological era was beginning.

The first modern-era Election was in 1892. The Popular Vote result matched the Electoral Vote result. And, from then on they have matched in EVERY Presidential election until 2016, which is when illegal foreign interference caused the anomaly of a split between the Electoral College vote-result and the Popular-vote-result. So, no good reason for that to happen again this year.

The reason the Electoral College and the Popular-vote-results match under fair circumstances, is, that the greater population of a few States is balanced by a greater number of the less populated States. TEN new, less populated States joined the Union following the last time the Electoral and Popular vote-results didn't match up. And, they have matched up in EVERY Presidential election since then until the illegal foreign interference in the 2016 Election, which deliberately attacked our Democratic-Republic by targeting the Electoral College vote.

For this reason, I do not think that the Electoral College needs to be eliminated to ensure a fair Presidential election. But, we do need to guard against illegal foreign interference, AND domestic attempts to obfuscate, alter, and/or suppress the fair vote-count.

Dirius said:

Oh don't worry about it. Its typical of waybread to get personal when she is losing an argument. But nobody in the forum really pays attention to what she says.

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Elena did, and judging from your non-stop replies to my posts, you cannot let me go, Dirius. But by all means, do try.

Speaking of the Electoral College (Tim) it will be interesting to see Joe Biden's VP selection, because the Electoral College will enter into his calculus. It will be interesting to see if she comes from a delegate-rich swing state like Michigan (Governor Gretchen Whitmer,) or Florida (Representative Val Demings.) There is a "favorite son" (now "favorite daughter") effect.

Then some states are more reliably "blue," like Massachusetts (Warren,) California (Harris, Bass) and Illinois (Duckworth.) But they may turn out more of a vote in other states among progressives (Warren,) African Americans (Harris, Bass,) or veterans (Duckworth.)

I'm staying tuned.

Dirius said:

I never brought up the subject of democrat voters being "duped" - that was you and waybread.

So it seems the thread can be derailed if you, or someone who agrees with you, chooses to change the subject.

Funny. Not sure if I can respond to the latest threads without "derailing" the subject, and it seems that whenever david chooses to, he can just invoke "mod rights" and shut down the conversation when it suits him, even though he actively participated in every other "derailing" topic.

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David is not a moderator. He is unable to "shut down" a conversation.

blackbery said:

....
I expect in Nov Trump will win both the electoral college and the popular vote for he's gained a lot more support since 2016 with creating the strongest economy in decades (before the China virus brought the world economies to a grinding halt).... benefiting not just the wealthy but everyone from every minority group. He has the full support of the police unions and the people of faith. They voted for a pro-life President who respects their faiths. Many legal immigrants like his tough stance on illegal immigration.
His votes will round up to around 66 million this time around, bringing him both the electoral college & the popular vote & that will silence the Democrats who want to change the electoral system.

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This is not factually correct.

It's called the cornoavirus or Covid-19, or variants thereof. Calling it the "China virus" has serious racist implications in the US, as Asian American citizens have been harassed by right-wingers who falsely blame them for causing the pandemic.
https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/202...ed-discrimination-amid-the-covid-19-outbreak/

Donald Trump did not somehow cause the prosperity of 2016-2019, he merely took credit for it. This was a global uptick following the Great Recession of 2008.

Trump's willful ignorance of CV-19 and massive numbers of Americans sickening and even dying had chilling effects on the economy. Trump could have brought the country together to fight the pandemic He did not, and his inattention and even hostility to epidemiology means we're all paying the price.

Trump is not a man of faith. He doesn't go to church. I doubt that he reads the Bible. He doesn't follow the Ten Commandments. Just ask Stormy Daniels, Michael Cohen, Roger Stone, the contractors he stiffed on his construction projects, the students he bilked out of thousands of dollars via his bogus Trump University, &c.

What Trump has done was make pledges to right-wing white Evangelicals to nominate conservative justices (whom he hopes will overturn Roe vs. Wade.)

The main reason for keeping the electoral college is to maintain the federal republic and to ensure the minority voice is not drowned out by the majority. It's worked extremely well as the Founding Fathers knew it would and no need to change it ever.


The Electoral College, enshrined in the Constitution, is a system that forces candidates to tour all of the nation’s 3,007 counties, 64 parishes, and 41 independent cities. Otherwise, large blue or red states with high density populations would determine the Presidential election and nobody else would be heard.

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I agree.

Cheating is another good reason.

No need to change a good electoral system because someone a voter personally disliked got elected. We live in a democracy and even the small, rural areas need to be heard.

Click to expand...

Under the Constitution, states have leeway to run the Electoral College differently. Most have gone for a winner-take-all sweepstakes. Maine and Nebraska follow a system of proportional representation, where the Electors are divided according to the outcome of the popular vote.

I support their systems.

david starling said:

That ship has sailed, regarding all the Covid-19 posts, including death-statistics. Waybread inadvertently opened the door in one post, and that, according to forum rules, gave Dirius the opportunity to make it all about Covid-19 statistics and who handled the pandemic worst, Trump or Governor Cuomo. Now I know to head that sort of thing off.
So, feel free to talk about the pandemic and rail against Dr. Fauci all you like. Dirius was able to make that happen. But now, he won't be able to turn the thread into an Econ 1A course in Neoliberal economic theory.

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What a coincidence that your complain came page 4 - not before when you were engaging in the conversation, right after I posted the data you and waybread couldn't suddenly answer anymore -