Help with my Sun Square Neptune, argh!

MJ82

Well-known member
I'm relatively new to astrology and I've has some brief feedback on this before (as well as reading a bit about it) but I wanted to get some advice relating to my Sun Square Neptune aspect (as opposed to generic descriptions):

My Sun in Pisces 20'29 in House 1 (intercepted I believe)
House 1 Aquarius
Neptune 26'57 in Sagittarius in House 11
House 11 Sagittarius

I've attached my chart as well and I would really appreciate feedback on what my specific Sun Square Neptune means for me in my chart, how it might manifest and what I can do about it.

- And also if there any redeeming features or aspects in my chart that may balance this hard aspect!

Thanks a lot :crying:
 

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miquar

Well-known member
Hi MJ82. What struck me about your chart is that the (slightly wide) square to Neptune really just adds to the Sun's Piscean expression, but that a greater tension may arise from the fact that this watery Sun sits in a very airy chart, with Aquarius rising, Moon and Mars in Libra ruled by Venus in Aquarius, and Mercury also strong in Aquarius in the first, with Venus sextile the exactly culminating Uranus.

Adding to the watery side, Venus is in the 12th and one of your Sun rulers, Jupiter is in Scorpio. Do you feel this tension between detached, principled thinking and subjective chaotic feeling? The watery side of you is likely to be the 'underdog', especially as neither Sun nor Jupiter are as well integrated with the rest of the chart by aspect as some of the airy planets.

If you do feel the square, then perhaps it will come through difficult Neptunian experiences with groups and ideals. Something may have happened to you when you were about 6 and a half years old, when your progressed Sun made the exact square to natal Neptune, that somehow symbolises the role of that aspect, and perhaps also the role of your watery Sun, in your life??
 
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waybread

Well-known member
You're in good company--my daughter and Barack Obama both have this aspect.

I think the sun square Neptune aspect is kind of a tough one. The sun shouts, "I gotta be me!" But Neptune slowly but steadily erodes that sense of selfhood. Liz Greene described Neptune as a longing to erase (or dissolve, in the sea god's case) what it touches. It fundamentally represents a kind of ego death, with a longing to merge with the divine.

Unfortunately, this aspect shows up in the charts of a lot of alcoholics and addicts, so you should probably steer clear of intoxicants. The buzz might kill the pain, but comes with its own afflictions.

The rest of your chart looks pretty good, though, notably with your trine from Mercury to your Libra powerhouse.

If astrology is more than a passing interest to you, I think you could do well at it. Mercury is the traditional ruler, and it looks good. Uranus is the modern ruler and it conjuncts your MC.

With Venus sextile Neptune, you probably have artistic ability--maybe a love of cinema/film studies, which Neptune seems to rule.

With your sun quintile Pluto, you are probably very ambitious, so hopefully your career path has given you ample room for growth.
 

MJ82

Well-known member
Thanks Miquar and Waybread for the replies.

Miquar: when you say 'slightly wide', in your view, does that mitigate the intensity of this aspect in anyway? Is it the same as saying it's a wider orb and what would that do?

In response:

Do you feel this tension between detached, principled thinking and subjective chaotic feeling?
- absolutely, I do feel this quite regularly and I'm only just making sense of it through my exploration of astrology. Your descriptions are rather uncanny actually! Eeek :crying:

The watery side of you is likely to be the 'underdog', especially as neither Sun nor Jupiter are as well integrated with the rest of the chart by aspect as some of the airy planets.
- can you tell me what you mean by underdog exactly? Is there an under expression of my sun sign in some way? My sun is 1st house is intercepted I believe, and I do sometimes feel a not very well-defined sense of self, whereas at other times I feel more grounded and centered. But I'm always in constant flux, it's a bit disconcerting...I'm trying to stay aware of these pulls and be on top of them but it's hard and I'm trying to find new ways of doing this...

Something may have happened to you when you were about 6 and a half years old, when your progressed Sun made the exact square to natal Neptune, that somehow symbolises the role of that aspect, and perhaps also the role of your watery Sun, in your life??
- wow! Yes yes and yes. My parents divorced when I was 6years old and that was a major upheaval for me and has impacted my life in many ways I'm only still discovering...

Waybread: thanks for the encouragement (and nice to "speak" to you again :))

I read about Obama and this aspect. About alcohol and drugs, I have been there and done that and it's a red line for me that I will stick to. I never had a very serious problem with either but it's a temptation.

I am working in film and visual art so that's interesting what you say...I have ambitions but with a lack of earth in my chart I'm trying to become better at grounding them so they can be realized! Working on that all the time...
 

MJ82

Well-known member
Also, in what way does a Pisces Sun specifically Square a Sag Neptune play out? How do the signs in each planet in this square interact? I'm curious.

Thanks.
MJ
 

waybread

Well-known member
A sign indicates "how" or "in what manner" a planet operates. Pisces is a psychic sponge--intuitive but also emotion-based. You probably feel very keenly if other people send out negativity, so best not to spend time with negative people.

I note also that Pisces is intercepted in your first house. We see kind of a pattern, with this, because the sun in an intercepted house can also make it hard to develop a clear sense of your identity. Then Neptune squaring your sun gives you a double dose of ego erasure.

But these placements would be just brilliant if you are spiritually inclined, or in some helping profession where you actually need to get your ego out of the way so that you can focus on a patient/customer/client. I think you would make a good therapist of some sort--provided you can avoid absorbing negativity from other people.
 

miquar

Well-known member
Hi MJ82. I think it is quite wide, but still not to be discounted as an 'influence'. My take on orbs is that a very close orb makes for a more compelling and unavoidable tie between the planets - like they just can't leave each other alone, especially with the hard aspects. But the wider aspects are weaker and there is more choice of whether or not to cultivate the connection. Some people use 10 degree orbs, especially for a hard major aspect from the Sun. But I would never consider anything beyond 8 degrees in this case.

When I say that water is probably the underdog I am getting Jungian. Jung noted that the thinking (air) and feeling (water) functions are opposite ways of evaluating experience, and that they cannot be used simultaneously, though one can be used to back up the other. People are inclined to develop one of these functions at the expense of the other, and the less developed function tends to behave more unconsciously, immaturely and unpredictably.

Because you have important points in both air and water, you cannot really get away with just relying on one element in your adaption to life, because if you do the planets in the denied element will be very suppressed. Your strong air means that you have probably developed your thinking function at the expense of feeling, and so feeling is the underdog. But because your Sun and Jupiter are in water, you have to also develop your feeling function in order to express and fulfil the powers and urges symbolised by these planets. Without Sun and Jupiter you may lack the confidence and spontaneity to follow your own special unique destiny.

When your parents divorced I'm guessing that you saw less of your father, because like waybread said above, Neptune erodes and dissolves. The Sun is often projected onto the father as a role model for one's emerging solar energy, and so when the aspect became exact, your connection to your solar centre perhaps dissolved to some extent. With Sun in Pisces, and that square to Neptune natally, you probably already experienced him as somehow difficult to grasp, elusive, weak or absent. Of course he may have had many positive Piscean qualities too.

Your work with visual art is probably giving your Sun in Pisces a really good vehicle for expression. Pisces Suns often have to swim in the waters of collective feeling in order to find some sense of selfhood. With Uranus culminating and Aquarius rising, you'll probably need to express revolutionary ideas through your work as well, at least some of the time - ideas that promote humanitarian ideals possibly.

I think Neptune's house position is much more important than its sign position. The 11th house is the natural house of Uranus and Aquarius, and so this adds to the importance of your ideals and ideas, and probably of identifying with groups that share them.

With Neptune in Sagittarius you are part of a generation that will experience idealism and disillusionment around issues of faith, religion and the meaning of life. So the individual expression of your Solar energy will perhaps be a vehicle for this generational process, helping others who are less in touch with collective feeling and imagination to experience it.

I think your 8th house emphasis, Jupiter in Scorpio and strong in its natural house, plus the very strong trine from Mercury to Pluto will draw you into the hidden side of yourself and others, and I'm sure this will influence your work also. the intimate encounters and self-communion that will draw out that which is hidden from consciousness may feel daunting with Mars, Saturn and Pluto all in the 8th, but I would say its very important for you to face any fears and slowly develop your capacity for intimacy. We're back to the need for water/feeling again here.

You mention that you feel you need more earth - Saturn largely reflects your endowment of discipline, realism and focus. Saturn is in your 8th house so you may need to check sometimes that your ambitions are not a way of avoiding experiencing intense, transformative feelings, or that your industriousness is not bogged down in real or imaginary power issues.

Mars is your potency and healthy aggression to pursue your goals, while Pluto has much passion, insight and stamina. The Moon is obviously always an important planet to satisfy for our physical and emotional well-being. These planets may also need 'rescuing' from your 8th house.

You were probably given messages when young that its not a good idea to show raw emotion and passion. I would guess that after your father left there was much unexpressed anger and bitterness in your Mother, that you sensed and didn't know how to handle. The Uranus exactly conjunct MC suggests that maybe she felt trapped by having to bring you up more on her own, and this perhaps added to her frustration.

But this is speculation. Please disregard it if it doesn't resonate with you.
 

MJ82

Well-known member
Waybread:

I note also that Pisces is intercepted in your first house. We see kind of a pattern, with this, because the sun in an intercepted house can also make it hard to develop a clear sense of your identity. Then Neptune squaring your sun gives you a double dose of ego erasure.

Ok that I find disturbing, and unfortunately it's something I do sometimes feel. It's funny, in periods when I'm feeling confident about myself, self-assured and strong, I feel I have a good sense of self overall, but when my confidence is low (as it is at the moment, with life circumstances etc) I feel my sense of self is not very strong at all.

Is there anything in my chart that can mitigate this double dose effect? Or that can help me to consciously counteract it...?

Miquar - you are right on about my father being an absent figure largely and this has affected my life and my ability to be "comfortable" with intimacy in inter-personal relationships. Unless I'm really close to someone (and not many people succeed in getting close!) then I find it hard to open myself up or even to talk honestly about myself. This tends to be where my sense of my self becomes more elusive, even to me... :(

You say:

Mars is your potency and healthy aggression to pursue your goals, while Pluto has much passion, insight and stamina. The Moon is obviously always an important planet to satisfy for our physical and emotional well-being. These planets may also need 'rescuing' from your 8th house.

Some of the planets above are also retrograde in my chart as well as being in my 8th house, have you get any clues, insights into how I (given my chart) might be able to "rescue" them?

Thanks.
 

miquar

Well-known member
Yes lots of retrograde planets in your chart, including all of the 8th house planets apart form the Moon. Its important to remember that nearly half of people are born with a retrograde Pluto, and I would guess well over a third of people are born with Saturn retrograde. With Mars its probably nearer 10%, however, making it more of a rarity.

Retrograde planets aren't weak or bad, but they do tend to need more patience in terms of outward expression in the world. Some degree of difficulty can occur around making the planet effective in the world due to the inward orientation. Strengths of retrogradation include rendering the planet less prone to being swayed by collective and external ways of being, and more in touch with the core values of the individual.

With Mars I think this can mean checking whether things are getting bottled up, and I guess also with Pluto. Saturn perhaps needs more encouragement than a direct Saturn to risk trying to achieve something in the world, but when it does it is more likely to have integrity. These are only tendencies though.

The 8th house placement of these planets may add to their tendency to work more inwardly to some extent. To explain what I meant by 'rescuing' planets from the 8th, I'll say something about my take on the 8th house generally. The 8th seems to symbolise those experiences in which there is a fusion with another individual on a feeling level - an intimate sharing of oneself. Such experiences tend to draw out parts of oneself that have not so far been accepted by, and integrated into, the sense of identity - this can be for a variety of reasons, but generally speaking it is to do with a conflict of values. So when people describe the 8th house as the house of other peoples' values (opposite the 2nd house of one'sown values), the other person can be understood as ultimately being the other within oneself - the unconscious, which carries those things that clash with our consciously held values.

So we are confronted with our own unconscious, and the crises that are also linked to the 8th house ensue, as, hopefully does the transformation as the ego sheds its old skin to make room for the integration of new values from the unconscious.

Planets in the 8th house can be suppressed if we associate their expression with crises that we are unwilling to endure. Also, we may express them according to another person's values in order to maintain the fusion and thus avoid a crisis - i.e. we live out a part of ourselves through another to avoid the inner confrontation. A third possibility is that we experience a power struggle with the other over the expression of the planet, but do not yield on an inner level to the process trying to take place.

Rescuing a planet, I would say, is about being willing to yield in order gain true self-mastery, rather than avoiding the risk of letting go of the superficial and fragile control we currently have over our experience of that planet.

In terms of resources in your chart, I would say your imagination could be a great ally to you. The ruler of your 8th house planets is Venus, which is in the 12th house, and perhaps your main way into the watery realm of feelings is through Pisces, which is a very imaginative sign. Your beliefs and ideals could provide a sustaining and illuminating backdrop to this personal journey into your underworld (Jupiter in Scorpio in the 9th and Neptune in Sagittarius in the 11th)

My hunch is that you need to convince yourself that your intellectual defences (against the chaos and potential suffering of the feeling realm) are more rigid than is ideal for your well-being as a whole person. Then you can more easily process the feelings and reclaim your power.

This very much parallels my own journey, so I know how hard it is. I certainly haven't managed to put all this into practise myself yet.

Just to clarify something, as well as being strongly Aquarian, Virgoan, Piscean and Libran, you are also strongly Scorpionic due to Jupiter in Scorpio, the 8th house emphasis, and the angular Pluto.

One more thing - that stuff you were reading about Sun in the twelth house and other stuff like it is not helpful and not astrology as it should be, in my view. An interpretation shouldn't kid you that your life will be easier than it will be, but it should never deplete your sense of personal power with which to shape your life.
 

miquar

Well-known member
I thought I'd have a quick look at when your progressed Mars goes direct. Its not until 24th July 2043.
 

waybread

Well-known member
MJ, nobody wants low self-esteem, but then nobody needs a big ego, either.

Have you ready anything by Eckhart Tolle? Highly recommended. The Power of Now is probably available at your local public library. Have you ever looked into Buddhism? Both these sources have a lot to say about the benefits of letting go of one's ego.

Your Jupiter in the 9th house positions you very well for philosophical and religious studies.

This doesn't mean to be a doormat for everybody. With your heightened sensitivities, it does mean discerning who has your best interests in mind and who doesn't.
 
I think Neptune's house position is much more important than its sign position. The 11th house is the natural house of Uranus and Aquarius, and so this adds to the importance of your ideals and ideas, and probably of identifying with groups that share them.
uranus, neptune and pluto are saturn are all generational planets, but when they aspect personal planets sun,moon, mercury, venus, mars and jupiter then they can be keenly felt.

Neptune in llth House – succeedent house
Unusual, idealistic friendships and group associations. ­Generosity and spiritual guidance received from friends. ­Sensitive to the needs of others. May join spiritual groups.View friends in idealistic manner. Your idea of ­sympathetic friend ‑ sympathetic ear! Also your ear would be bent from your friends and this would be an area of comfort for you. Sacrificial things done for friends that others wouldn't. Can even wear the rose‑tinted glasses here, because you will think they were worth it. Bad aspects cause disillusionment, even so would have been worth the price (perhaps moved away or ­emigrated, but even the memory would be cherished). Encourage spiritual groups of like minds. Non‑competitive team work. Inspire others and friends ‑ nurturing.

I use Equal House system (where each cusp is same as Ascendant) and am a modern astrologer. Lots of newcomers come into Astrology/forums and get a free chart from www.astro.com and the default ‘house system’ used is Placidus and think that’s just the norm and all there is……..BUT that is just the tip of the iceberg. You can change the default on astro.com in Extended Chart selection to Equal house and a few others if you wish to experiment…..

So your stellium in libra would be 9th house not 8th. Do you like higher education, studying, travel? Also you sun would be 2nd house of how you earn your money, personal beliefs and values.


Traditionally the ninth house is known as the house of long distance travel. Travel of distances greater than 500 miles would be found in this house. Voyages, foreigners, foreign countries, journeys into the unknown both physical and mental, church, religion, theology, philosophy, beliefs, divination, languages, higher learning, college education, literature, books, publishing, media, law, lawyers, truth, justice, prophecy, expansion and broadening of one's horizons in all ways are covered by the 9th house.
http://www.horoscopeswithin.com/houses.php

Retrograde planets
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22923
http://astrology.findyourfate.com/astrology-retrograde.htm
http://www.north-node.com/astrology-tutorials/retrogrades
http://www.skyviewzone.com/astrology/retrogradeplanets.htm
http://www.north-node.com/astrology-tutorials/retrogrades
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5796&postcount=8
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5861&postcount=10
Pluto retrograde in scorpio above
Mars Retrograde
* reconsiders before expressing anger
* finds competitive situations hard to handle
* tends to repress and so ....
* can become depressed
Jupiter Retrograde
* has doubts about what they deserve and so ...
* finds it easy to settle for crumbs
* feels superior in some way inside
* abundance is felt on the inside
* looks inside for answers to religious questions

Saturn Retrograde
* feels inside that they're never good enough
* indulgent outward behavior may mask inner feelings of inadequacy
* hides fears

Uranus Retrograde
* reconsiders outward expressions of rebelliousness
* feels inside that they are different
* outward conformist behavior masks inner feelings of non-conformity or ...
* goes out of their way to upset others apple carts
* has a difficult time finding their niche in society


uranus conj MC can also suggest a missing parent. I notice you are having your saturn return and will conj mars in september. This can cause stop/go situations, delays, frustations of actions. Middle Oct last year when T Saturn was conj moon, did a relationship end? were you short on finances and prefering to withdraw socially?

Saturn Return
Saturn takes 30 years or so to complete its circuit around the zodiac so events that occur around the age of 29-30, 58-59 and 84-87 will be of great significance to the native, depending on the strength and aspects to natal saturn.
http://www.newage-directory.com/saturn.html
http://www.astrologycom.com/saturn.html
http://www.saturnreturn.net/what_is.html
http://www.examiner.com/x-2766-Atlan...-Saturn-return

http://www.lynnkoiner.com/astrology-articles/dysfunctional-saturn
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/saturn.html
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/saturn_att.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_return
http://www.newage-directory.com/saturn.html
http://astrology.about.com/od/advanc...turnReturn.htm
http://www.aquariuspapers.com/astrol...turn_retu.html
http://rudhyar.com/beautyofaging.shtml

Age 10 your progressed sun would have changed signs into Aries, did you notice a more direct action, assertiveness?
 

MJ82

Well-known member
Hi Astrologer50, you mention my progressed Sun in Aries at age 10 (!) and I can't honestly say that I noticed feeling any different or more assertive then... But I just today started a thread about progressions (specifically in relation to my progressed chart which I generated today, my Sun and now Mercury and Ascendant are all in Aries, Moon now in Scorpio too) and I've very recently been feeling very restless, noticeably so just in the last month... - Would you mind having a quick look at my progressed chart? Here's the link to the thread, chart is attached: http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39293 And by the way: "Middle Oct last year when T Saturn was conj moon, did a relationship end?" - yes it did! Though it was actually in November... how interesting.
 

MJ82

Well-known member
I was looking back at my natal chart today and I was reading about Venus in the 12th House...

It indicates inhibitions in love and I was curious about whether I had any aspects in my chart that mitigate this?

Venus aspects (from a different chart to the one posted here, so orbs might be slightly different):

Moon trine Venus, orb -3° 11'
Venus sextile Uranus, orb 1° 34'
Venus conjunction Ascendant, orb 8° 22'
Venus sextile Midheaven, orb 1° 33'
Sun semi-square Venus, orb -0° 42'
Venus square Jupiter, orb -3° 46'

Thank you!:cool:
 

MJ82

Well-known member
Or any other aspects for that matter...?

To be more specific: I fo feel I have walls and defences, far more than I would like, but I am able to let my guard down when I feel I really know someone, can trust them, and then my reticence diminishes and I can feel quite passionate...it's just a schism...

Would Moon Conjunct Mars contribute to that? (Even though my Mars is Retrograde?)

Any other insights would be very appreciated :)
 

Inconjunct

Well-known member
I've not read the other posts, as I try and come to these questions "blind" if you like so apologies if I'm repeating information. By solar arc direction, around the age of 6, this aspect would have become exact. Did something happen around that age involving your father? It suggests he may have been absent from the home, or at least a somewhat vague presence. This could have had an effect on your sense of identity, perhaps shaking a previously more secure sense of who you are into one that is more nebulous and ungraspable. Does this make sense to you?

I notice also that this is perhaps the only really significant contact your Sun makes with other planets. I'm guessing that generally, you may feel a little adrift, something that is only further emphasised by your Sun-Pisces placement.

The midpoint of this square is just about conjunct Venus. Ebertin states that this leads to disappointments in relationships due to personal reserve. This may, of course, have a lot to do with (if it's the case) the first relationship with your father being so poorly established.
 
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MJ82

Well-known member
Inconjunct - thanks for your reply.

Well I never would have believed astrology to be capable of pinpointing so precisely, such turning points in my life... Yes, when I was 6 my father left home, my parents divorced and we very quickly left Boston where I had been living since birth, and moved (my mom and I alone) to a completely new location. I would definitely say this has contributed to my "nebulous" sense of self...!

So how does this exact age tie into my sun square neptune exactly - if this was an aspect in formation at my birth?

(And do you have any thoughts on Venus in house 12, and any aspects I have that might balance this out?)

Thanks.
 

Inconjunct

Well-known member
Solar arc direction basically progresses the whole chart by the same distance of arc that the Sun moves, taking one day to equal one year. It works out as (very roughly) one degree per year (though the Sun moves more slowly/quickly at certain points in its cycle). The solar arc chart is then compared with the natal chart to see any contacts made between SA planets and natal ones. So, in your natal chart, Sun is at 20 deg Pisces, Neptune at 26 deg Sag - Sun moving six degrees makes the square exact, bringing its potential to full fruition. Hope that makes sense? The Sun can symbolise the father, Neptune is about cloudiness, absence etc, so as SA directions are about events more than internal processes, I put two and two together and am glad I made a direct hit!!

Venus in 12th is interesting. The 12th indicates things that are hidden (or kept concealed or secret) - Venus here only further emphasises the effect your father's exit had. You learned early on that love and affection were "unacceptable" (because he went away, right?), making you reticent to display affection to others - this again is picked up in the midpoint picture I indicated above. I notice also that Venus makes a square to Jupiter and also a trine to the Moon - it's almost as if there's a sense of "loving not wisely but too well". You have a lot of affection to give, but you keep it locked up inside you. Perhaps the clue to the resolution of this can be found in Venus sextile Uranus, which suggests to me that perhaps allowing yourself to be more spontaneous may, just may help to deal with these issues?
 
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