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  #1  
Unread 10-06-2013, 03:15 PM
Stephen Stephen is offline
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why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

Astrology is a science, it is known from quantum theory that everything is inter connected, everything in the universe is therefore unified.
Why are superstitions like Tarot associated with Astrology ?
Are there Astrologers who concentrate on the science only ?

Stephen

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  #2  
Unread 10-06-2013, 03:19 PM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

In 40+ years in asttrology I have never seen any professional astrologer who is using tarot. I have seen tarot specialists who use astrology, to perhaps make the tarot seem more respectable---usually the ones in the little shops in artistic twons with the neon signs in the windows.

I know many of the astrologers who write textbooks that you can buy and they don't use tarot.

So I don't know what you are talking about.
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  #3  
Unread 10-06-2013, 03:55 PM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Astrology is a science, it is known from quantum theory that everything is inter connected, everything in the universe is therefore unified.
Why are superstitions like Tarot associated with Astrology ?
Are there Astrologers who concentrate on the science only ?

Stephen
Here is my take on your questions:
  • Astrology is part science and part art, that is, part divination.
  • Tarot is strictly divination, so it dovetails well with the divination part of astrology. I know a very talented and successful astrologer who also laid out a 7 card spread with each interpretation she did. Many of the Tarot symbols are astrological.
  • Yes, there are astrologers who concentrate strongly on the movement of the physical bodies and other scientific foundations of astrology. But astrology is also interpretation of those movements and patterns, and the interpretive part, the gestalt, the insight into meaning, by its very definition is never scientific in any discipline.
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Last edited by IleneK; 10-09-2013 at 07:18 PM.
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  #4  
Unread 10-06-2013, 07:16 PM
Stephen Stephen is offline
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

Thanks Zarathu and Ilenek,
That's good to know,I am beguining to study Astrology more now and don't understand why some people say it is divination.

My understanding is that the time of first breath is imprinted on the heavens.
This is all the Karma from previous lifes.
Life is fated but we also have freewill ( a paradox)
By looking at our own chart we see the planets that are afflicted and then work on what we need to do.
By progressing the chart we can see what might happen in the future.

This is only basic I know as I'm just learning but I don't see any divination in this.
Thanks Stephen
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  #5  
Unread 10-06-2013, 07:43 PM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

Astrology can be used to assist most anything. It is not astrologers using tarot, but tarot readers using astrology. Divination works best if done at a favorable astrological time. Also the publishers of the cards often put astrology symbols on them.
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  #6  
Unread 10-06-2013, 08:13 PM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
Thanks Zarathu and Ilenek,
That's good to know,I am beguining to study Astrology more now and don't understand why some people say it is divination.

My understanding is that the time of first breath is imprinted on the heavens.
This is all the Karma from previous lifes.
Life is fated but we also have freewill ( a paradox)
By looking at our own chart we see the planets that are afflicted and then work on what we need to do.
By progressing the chart we can see what might happen in the future.

This is only basic I know as I'm just learning but I don't see any divination in this.
Thanks Stephen
Perhaps we might benefit from defining the term "divination" so we may agree that we are all talking about the same thing.

The second definition of the term divination in Merriam Webster is:
2: unusual insight : intuitive perception
So, the interpretive part of all that you have described above, the art portion of astrology [which is part science and part art]...that is the divination component.
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  #7  
Unread 10-06-2013, 08:39 PM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

Ilenek thank-you,
So when I interpret my chart using a mixture of practical and intuition this is divination.

Thank-you Culpeper, It's good to know that about the tarot.
I feel I can learn a lot from you all.

Best
Stephen
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  #8  
Unread 10-06-2013, 08:48 PM
Zarathu Zarathu is offline
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

All really good astrologers have to use an element of intuitive perception. There are so many choices.

Even when you know what the potentials are, you have to choose. For me, I choose the ones that sort of feel right. I don;t have a high level of psychic sensitivity, but I can usually tell very quickly which of the choices is correct. but then I tend to ask question of the client so I can get in the "ball park".

The more intuitive among us, can jump right into an interpretation without knowing anything about the client at all. These people would probably be very good at tarot also.
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  #9  
Unread 10-06-2013, 09:00 PM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

Thanks Zarathu,
Are most Astrologers self learned ? perhaps some bring knowledge from past lifes and it is a matter of re- learning, hence the extra intution.

Best
Stephen
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  #10  
Unread 10-07-2013, 03:44 AM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

I consider Tarot to be a valuable symbolic divination method; and there are techniques for associating symbols of the Tarot with astrological associations, and of associating astrological data with the symbols of Tarot. Whether one wishes to do so, or to accept one method and reject the other, is a choice based entirely upon personal insight...
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  #11  
Unread 10-07-2013, 04:05 AM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

John Sandbach is one good example of exalted in both astrology and tarot reading.

The origin of Tarot is unknown very much similar to Astrology. It is very likely somehow the two were linked or development some time in history along the same line. Many suggested that Tarot originated from Egypt, though many arguments ongoing. But, if you look into the symbolism in each Tarot card, you will see all linked to astrology.

If I was an ancient astrologer, in the old time can only bring minimal things with me on a long journey, Tarot deck would be what I have in my backpack to assist myself the unknown journey. I could ask questions about small events that might come to my attention instead of drawing a chart....the generation of without computer and software. Maybe that was the case and how Tarot was spread over the world through people like the Gypsy. It might very well be created for convenience.
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Unread 10-07-2013, 07:14 PM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

Astrology is an art, an art based on science. (Science often contains more art than the scientists would like to admit, I think.)

Astrology deals with symbols and symbolic meaning and functions primarily through analogy.

Tarot is also symbolic. Tarot is not "cosmic" in scale like astrology, but is immediate...very much like horary astrology, which through determination of the "time of birth" of a question can answer that question.

Tarot also uses the time of birth of the question, which is expressed as the Moment in which the cards are cast.

Jung said that "What is born in a given moment is of the nature of that moment."

Thus the spread of the tarot cards, created or born in a given moment, is of the nature of that moment, just as the horosope is. The symbols of Tarot will then align themselves with the nature of the moment, and answer the question.

I do not now and never have used tarot. I'm an astrologer. But in the hands of a skilled "reader" the tarot can give meaningful and accurate answers. I would not be so hasty in calling tarot a superstition. The problem is that there are many who use tarot, but only a few of these have the skill needed to employ it effectively. We should not confuse the practitioner with the art.
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  #13  
Unread 10-08-2013, 07:32 AM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

In my eyes Astrology is Math and Statistics, who ever had Statistics classes will understand. Tarot, in my eyes, is like poker, just random cards.
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Unread 10-08-2013, 08:30 AM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

Science, as most people imagine it, does not exist. There is no way of collecting data of any kind without the interference of the subject themselves. If you use an instrument, that tool was designed by people, and those people had a certain bias or interest in mind when they designed it. They decided, among other things, what it is the instrument would register and that everything else would be disregarded. A thermometer can't tell what size your feet are.

No equipment can register data it was not constructed to perceive. We are the ones who decide what it is we want to know, and we design tools that will gather data that we think are important or relevant about the object of our observation. Most scientific breakthroughs do not come from more advanced equipment but a change in perspective. Somebody suddenly has an idea to look for something nobody has looked for before. They design an instrument that can gather the data they need, and they construct a new model of reality.

The only problem is, that contemporary science treats every breakthrough as if we got closer to grasping the totality of reality with each step, and there is a dogma that we will eventually get there, and the one and only path is that of Holy Science. I'm sorry, I fail to see how this is possible, and I also fail to see the objectivity or the "quest for truth" here. It's rather the quest for power over people's minds, not so different from the "dark middle ages". I distrust any collective system of thought that discourages people from directly experiencing the world around them and thinking with their own head.

Divinatory systems have two very important elements. One is establishing the right attitude, and the other is developing a method or way of interpretation. Some systems put greater emphasis on this, others on that, but most treat them as equal.

The right attitude is important because, unlike science, divinatory systems do not disregard the fact that the cards on the table or the planets in the chart are tools that can only aid you in ways your bias or your disposition allows them to. Using any kind of divinatory system requires that on the one hand, you dedicate yourself to become more and more aware of your conscious and not so conscious perspectives and beliefs, fears, hopes, etc, and on the other, you need to find a way to, at least temporarily, suspend them. I can't imagine any genuine divination without doing this.

And method is important because it helps you maintain your focus, it's like a compass that helps you find your way in a landscape that is ever-changing... Without it, you are just having a "good trip".

The tarot is more "obvious" about attitude and less obvious about a method. It does not mean, however, that there is none, it only means that it has to be developed by each individual themselves, you decide how simple or intricate you want your readings to be.

I have only spent a few months with astrology so far, but it is more "obvious" about method than the tarot, and it seems to able to draw a more elaborate "map" of the landscape of the soul, but it does not mean that it is not important to work on developing the right attitude.
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  #15  
Unread 10-08-2013, 08:54 AM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

Tarot is meant to be as a tool of our natural intuition like a mirror reflecting and bringing out our unconsciousness in symbols.

Last year, I did tarot reading as well as astrology reading to predict my love life both pointed to the same thing. It is the ability of the reader in both tarot and astrological chart that is only matter.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=50799

My tarot reading summed up the entire trend of me starting a new relationship and the nature of all obstacles. These obstacles had reviewed themselves just the way the cards showed me over time and even before I actually met this person. Tarot is a tool to bring out the natural intuition and power of prediction of our psyche.
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I believe there is something of the divine mystery in everything that exists. We can see it sparkle in a sunflower or a poppy. We sense more of the unfathomable mystery in a butterfly that flutters from a twig--or in a goldfish swimming in a bowl. But we are closest to God in our own soul. Only there can we become one with the greatest mystery of life. In truth, at very rare moments we can experience that we ourselves are that divine mystery. --Jostein Gaarder, Sophie's World
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Unread 10-08-2013, 09:02 AM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

I am thinking...For both Astrology and Tarot, the ability to interpret with logical and abstract minds as Mercury and Jupiter. Intuition is Moon and Neptune. The Psychic bit would be Neptune, Saturn and Pluto. The sudden insights and enlightenment from interpretation would be Uranus. Mars and Uranus would add acute mind. To link intuition, logic and abstract mind together would be favorable links between Neptune, Moon, Mercury and Jupiter.
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I believe there is something of the divine mystery in everything that exists. We can see it sparkle in a sunflower or a poppy. We sense more of the unfathomable mystery in a butterfly that flutters from a twig--or in a goldfish swimming in a bowl. But we are closest to God in our own soul. Only there can we become one with the greatest mystery of life. In truth, at very rare moments we can experience that we ourselves are that divine mystery. --Jostein Gaarder, Sophie's World
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  #17  
Unread 10-08-2013, 08:12 PM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

Thanks for your replies everyone.
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  #18  
Unread 10-13-2013, 10:05 PM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

I'd call astrology an occult science.

What I like about the tarot is that it's a really multifaceted occult tool that briings together multiple occult sciences like numerology and astrology as well as other occult things like the kaballah and symbolism.

Each tarot trump is ruled by either a planet or a sign, the tarot in todays form has been around for hundreds of years long before the outer planets were even discovered yet even still the 22 trumps manage to cover all 12 signs as well as the 2 lights and 8 major planets.

Numbered cards 2-10 cover the 36 decanites of the zodiac nicely. The aces correspond to the root of the elemental forces themselves, thus the ace of wands would represent all 3 of the fire signs and so on...

The court cards are simply mixtures of elemental archetypes in person form. So say someone is astrologically mostly fire and water then they'd probably be a King (King being fiery) of Cups (Cups being watery) or Queen (Queen being watery) of Wands (Wands being fiery) type.

When working with the tarot a knowledge of astrology definitely helps.
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  #19  
Unread 10-14-2013, 04:07 AM
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Re: why do some Astrologers associate tarot to Astrology ?

The Ram:
You might find my thread "Conversion of Astro-Data to Major Arcana Symbols", in the Spiritual Forum, of some interest; I'll refresh the thread for you...
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