SUNRISE Charts as predictive tools...?

dr. farr said:

I completely agree!

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No one really knows, and no one really ever demonstrated and hence the fights and doubts remain?

Let us begin again, but sincerely and not at the behest of a few that stray in and derail us all? The powers of EVIL in Kali-Yuga have always been stronger?

And Richard (Dr. Farr), if you ever get banned again, particularly on this forum, I shall quit with you as well! We are in a good milieu and you must trust my instincts! I have been banned only once that hurt, because it was from an egotistical moderator who twisted my words and ill-portrayed me! The next time, it was by a dinosaur whose cat icon was protected by a helmet that looked like a watermelon, but LOVE simply prevailed and a brother (different one!) got found and the third time -- where fundamentalism seemed to be on the rise on Yahoo -- I simply left before they could ban a free spirit! ;-)



Richard... I was very serious and sincere about the bit that remained unquoted in your sharing! It is okay of course! ;-)

Thank you both
I will not go into any heated discussion about the issue of software and it's correctness
Just wanted to note that this is something that I did wonder about myself as I notice in all programs and also on astro.com that the time I put in shows to be the same time as "universal time" that the software finds for the location, which is wrong. So then I probably need to put into the software the solar hour that I and others were born to get it accurate. But I have not been confident enough in reading the charts so far as to be totally sure that this would be the way to go.

Those people closest to me I see that it does not always change the ASC ...but in my case it does.

I do thank dr. farr however for mentioning this so now I know that at least one experienced astrologer is not counting 100% on software correctness.

Just went through my chart with this sunrise method - only doing as shown in the video - and the results are excactly like this guy says in the video, each time a planet meets another planet on this travel - and using his 6yrs for each sign method - something important happens. I have a list that I might post in my thread if you can confirm that this is indeed the right method?

Important note that I see clearly;
Moon, Neptune, Venus and Jupiter are involved in child birth.
But that would be the case in general too for most people - it is not connected to houses in this method?
Is this the same method you use dr. farr , the one JA posted the video above?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWQEkCt825k

Or do you also use the sunrise method as a normal ASC and look at all transits and so on related to "normal" chart reading ?

Arena said:

Just went through my chart with this sunrise method - only doing as shown in the video - and the results are excactly like this guy says in the video, each time a planet meets another planet on this travel - and using his 6yrs for each sign method - something important happens. I have a list that I might post in my thread if you can confirm that this is indeed the right method?

Important note that I see clearly;
Moon, Neptune, Venus and Jupiter are involved in child birth.
But that would be the case in general too for most people - it is not connected to houses in this method?
Is this the same method you use dr. farr , the one JA posted the video above?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWQEkCt825k

Or do you also use the sunrise method as a normal ASC and look at all transits and so on related to "normal" chart reading ?

Click to expand...

Dear Arena,

Interesting video, thanks for sharing it. By the way your link took me to the SUNSET method, not sunrise as you said and reported some interesting hits! Perhaps it was a typo and you did use the sunset chart in your examination of the video method?

So simply stated, as I understood, one could start at the house opposite to where natal sun is and give or take a few years (or more exactly going by the degree) we note the hits of this 'progressed' chart, for starters. We also assume that the longevity is nominally 72 years (6 x 12) which is kind of the mean life-expectancy globally (although the average life expectancy actually varies from high fifties to early nineties (underdeveloped to developed nations spectrum of life expectancies). If some interesting pattern emerges, one could look at a sample of nativities who are deceased but have several events recorded and then perhaps the 6-year segment could be actually shorter or longer (based on longevity). We could use 5years for people who have shorter longevities and between 7 and 8 for those who are likely to live upto 80s and ninties.

I like the concept, academically, but am a little puzzled that the astrologer started with sunset as the onset of life, although sunrise as the birth-epoch symbolic representative sounds more reasonable since sunrise is when most activity (and rat-race etc) begins but subsides at sunset! I notice that for this method one needs to incorporate the trans-saturnines for individual nativities. I have no problems with that although to most practicing jyotish it might sound as a new adventure ;-)

To avoid confusions, could you kindly confirm whether you were using SUNRISE or SUNSET...?

Thanks and regards,

Rohiniranjan

Dear Arena,

Something was not clear in your sharing maybe just to me...? :-(

Now, in olden times in India, birth charts tended to show birth times not in clock hours but as interval after sunrise, and this was represented as Ishta or Ishta-kaal. So to verify one would have to go to the panchaang (ephemeris) that those astrologers used and that generally remained a variable or even unknown quantity for others looking at the chart many years later. This became apparent to me when I had the good (from a learning pov!) fortune to see many horoscopes where the clock time was noted down as well and backcalculations found that possibly not the same sun-rise time was utilized by different people following different local ephemerides (panchaangs). So, quite candidly, errors did occur even before software came about! That said, I have used a few commercial softwares and found calculation errors (which I conveyed to the sw programmer and many of them saw the error and corrected those. Then there were others where version-dependent errors showed up. Something that was correct in an earlier version, showed up as erroneous in later but more expanded software versions! Due to changes in the re-coding etc. So, it pays to remain wary and not be too blindly relying that the software programmer knows best!

As to 'heat' as long as sincerity continues in communications and honesty (no games!) only mutual respect and acceptance (even if the concept is too far out or different!) remains! ;-)

Love and Light,

Rohiniranjan

Arena said:

Thank you both
I will not go into any heated discussion about the issue of software and it's correctness
Just wanted to note that this is something that I did wonder about myself as I notice in all programs and also on astro.com that the time I put in shows to be the same time as "universal time" that the software finds for the location, which is wrong. So then I probably need to put into the software the solar hour that I and others were born to get it accurate. But I have not been confident enough in reading the charts so far as to be totally sure that this would be the way to go.

Those people closest to me I see that it does not always change the ASC ...but in my case it does.

I do thank dr. farr however for mentioning this so now I know that at least one experienced astrologer is not counting 100% on software correctness.

Click to expand...

The differences (clock vs background solar time) noted by Crystalpages are due to the difference between local mean time and actual Sun time (local apparent time)-local apparent time is essentially the same as what was meant by the ancient term "Ishta kaal", and, prior to the late 1800's, was the method used (East and West) for determining time for the erection of astrological charts.

Arena said:

Just went through my chart with this sunrise method - only doing as shown in the video - and the results are excactly like this guy says in the video, each time a planet meets another planet on this travel - and using his 6yrs for each sign method - something important happens. I have a list that I might post in my thread if you can confirm that this is indeed the right method?
?

Click to expand...

This method is an adaptation of simple symbolic directions: various factors can be used for symbolic directions: the most common one is 1 year = 1 degree, however other factors can be (and have been) applied, including 1 year = 2.5 degrees, and 1 year = 5 degrees (the factor mentioned by Arena) Symbolic directions (using various factors) was formally introduced into Western astrology by pioneer Modernist Charles Carter back in the 1930's (see his "Symbolic Directions in Modern Astrology" for further elaboration) I usually use the 1 year = 1 degree factor, but have also experimented with the 1 year= 2.5 degrees and 1 year = 5 degrees factors, with interesting results.

Arena said:

Is this the same method you use dr. farr , the one JA posted the video above?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWQEkCt825k

Or do you also use the sunrise method as a normal ASC and look at all transits and so on related to "normal" chart reading ?

Click to expand...

I have experimented with all.

Well this is the reason that I posted the link to ask you what kind of method you use. In the case of the video it seems that it does maybe not matter whether you use sunrise or sunset, the princip is to count the movements of the planets and use 6 years for each sign... so I did this. I did not really care where the sun was located, just counted how far the planets are apart and then noted events of yrs when they meet up with this method.

So therefore I would like your verification if this is how you use the method, or if you also use the sunrise method to act like the house of the sun is really the ASC and then use it for all chart reading, transits as well? I don't think that is how this method is supposed to be used though - because that would probably usually not fit with people's life story if their ASC is really another sign.

So my educated guess is that this method is ONLY used to move the inner ring and compare with the outer ring to see if important events happen in the years planets conjunct and then you count the years.

Arena,

The use of three ascendants (rising sign, moon and sun) is recommended in BPHS and other jyotish texts and called as sudarshan kundali. This is recommended by the ancients not just for questionable times but all nativities. In India, older jyotishis preferred the lunar chart for transits and also questionable birthtimes (along with a host of other methods, including the tattwa method being discussed in a thread, concurrently).

If you are truly interested in pursuing these, you should examine in several charts of nativities well known to you and who can give feedbacks and then you can figure out if it works or not. If lunar or solar charts do work in the case of nativities where birthtime is more accurately known (plus the advantage of having feed-back and confirmation) then it stands to reason that they would work in the case of unknown birthtimes. That said, we should not forget the REALITY that many many many nativities born on the same day could have the same lunar chart and similarly the solar chart over a slightly longer period (relative orbital periodicity of sun and moon)! It means a bit (quite a bit!) of hands-on effort, but in my experience that is a better way and reduces if not eliminates the confusion created by opinions of which whether you look in ancient literature or not so ancient literature, there would be found MANY!

Regards,

Rohiniranjan

Thanks you both - this is helpful... I will explore a few charts.

Just wanted to share with you that I made a list of my own planets with this method
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=549607&postcount=199

In fact if we look at the most popular in traditional jyotish: vimshottari dasa, it can be viewed as a 120 degrees lunar progression in 120 years method; however, it does not use a degree per year sequence, but rather can be viewed as the natal moon progressing in life at variable progression velocities. So, it covers the 13d20m of ashwini (ketu's star) in 7 years, and the next 13d20m (Bharini-venus) in 20 years (slowest progression), then Krittika-solar nakshatra) in 6 years (fastest), and the identical arc-interval (13d20m) of moon in 10 years, the next one (mars) in 7 years...all the way until it crosses the 13d20m of star of mercury in 17 years (total duration of natal moon progressing through 120degrees or set of 9 nakshatras in 120 years), and then the next set of 9 stars begins, although perhaps only in that village in China where many people tend to live beyond 120 yrs -- most others in the world hardly even reach the end of one full cycle of lunar progression of 120y! ;-)

Rohiniranjan

Arena said:

So my educated guess is that this method is ONLY used to move the inner ring and compare with the outer ring to see if important events happen in the years planets conjunct and then you count the years.

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In my opinion, your "educated guess" is correct!

In making symbolic directions (of which the 1 year = 5 degrees is a type), I have used regular charts; the very few times I have used sunrise charts (due to birth time being unknown) with symblic directions, I have used the directions based on sunrise-I have no experience with using sunset charts with any methodology.