Alcoholism

WB,
A strong and positive Saturn will absolutely be a modifying factor in a Neptunian chart.

However, you said," thanks for your poetic and insightful deliniation of Neptune as "trickster". Yet I think Steven Forrest is right: no planet is in our charts just to hurt us."

No planet is "in" a chart to do anything. The chart is the map of our psyche. It's the "schematic" of our psyche. It represents who we are. Planets are energy. WE place interpretation upon the planets positions and relativity to each other. We do this to be able to read the map.

Sun represents ego. Moon represents feelings and programming, Mars represents actions, Pluto represents metamorphosis... becoming..., Neptune represents deception. Neptunian energy is the "big nothing." Just as Jupiter is the great "yes" and Saturn the great "no." These are words that represent what the planetary energy represents. The words are not equal to the "truth."....we just use the words because we have no other way to speak about it.

When I talk about "Neptune's job" being to take us into oblivion, it's a metaphorical expression.
LIN

I just needed to comment that that was a fantastic post....

Lin, there is so much wisdom in what you say! Yet I wonder, do you have a sardonic view of the world? I believe that you would say no, that you are merely the realist. But I think we're in the "glass is half empty" vs. "no, it's half full" terrain. To say that Neptune represents deception, pure and simple, is to see only the "trickster" face of Neptune, not the "teacher". The positive side of Neptune might be an empowering spirituality, significant artistic ability, or just the capacity for simple wonderment at the beauty of a walk by the ocean at sunset.

Neptune was the Roman sea god. One thing that occurs to me when I am fortunate enough on holiday to walk by a beach (or one of the North American Great Lakes) is to realize that humans are all pretty much like waves crashing on the beach. Some waves are bigger, and some have a further reach than others, but ultimately they are all pulled back into the sea. Only rarely does a wave rearrange the coastline, and even it is pulled back into "oblivion." Given this possibility, what is the best way to live our lives?

I don't know if you are a fan of the music of Leonard Cohen, but his old songs, "Sisters of Mercy" and "Suzanne" suggest some answers.

I have a long-term interest in mythology and folklore: very Neptunian stuff, in some regards. The oldest religions are apparently shamanistic, whether they be from Finland or Native America. The shaman's goal wasn't oblivian, but healing and connecting. To me, Joseph Campbell was one of the modern writers who really had a handle on the Neptunian world, although I don't know if he ever looked at astrology.

I have Saturn opposite sun, getting closer by progression (as this positition always indicates Saturn retrograde.) When I approached (and am now just past) my 60th birthday, I began to see Saturn as my greatest teacher. I have been fortunate to experience some rewards later in life. So I don't see some planets as good and some as bad, traditional astrology notwithstanding: we can handle any planetary energy as beneficial or harmful.

Moreover, human beings experience our lives both metaphorically and materially. "Oblivion" seems more metaphorical than representive of day-to-day life. Neptune has to have a quotidian face. For some it is watching television, or buying a lottery ticket. For others, it is reading a fairy tale to a child--or writing one.

Freedom Lover, thanks! With your friend's north node of personal growth in the 9th house of theology, philosophy, and mind-expanding activities, I hope you can suggest that it is time for him to get busy manifesting it! He can't be that much of a wimp, at his [middle] age, to let Mom continue to dominate his life in that way. I suspect what he has to contribute frightens him, so Mom and alcohol are convenient for him to hide behind. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking.....

Freedom Lover, thanks! With your friend's north node of personal growth in the 9th house of theology, philosophy, and mind-expanding activities, I hope you can suggest that it is time for him to get busy manifesting it! He can't be that much of a wimp, at his [middle] age, to let Mom continue to dominate his life in that way. I suspect what he has to contribute frightens him, so Mom and alcohol are convenient for him to hide behind. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking.....

Click to expand...

Thanks for answering, Waybread

Oh, he spent years working on his North Node. His problem is really the PTSD, and the religious beliefs he can't seem to shake from childhood, with his mother "playing the hell card" to control him all the time. The "hell card" is quite paralyzing. So is "the family will abandon you" card. He is not a wimp by any stretch of the imagination. However, when someone has psychological factors so painful that they cannot cope, it is completely debilitating. Ask me, I know. The reason I defend his position so passionately is that I've had almost the exact same complex. It has been pure hell on earth trying to dig my way out of it. I have had virtually no help nor understanding of what this is like from others - so I know how he feels. People like us need people to help lift us up when we're low, not kick us while we're down.

I only escaped being an addict because I've got way too much Capricorn in me to let go of control. I got drunk a few times in my life, but couldn't stand not having full control of myself - so I knocked it off. But I can say that I have strongly desired an addiction to escape into with all the terrible psychological pain I've been through.

People who are alcoholics and drug users really need compassion and understanding for the reasons they have substance abuse problems - their emotional issues and belief systems -- NOT condemnation because they abuse them. Neptune is not only the planet for addiction, but also agape love.

I had another friend who was addicted to crack at one point in their life. At his lowest point, this person's entire family abandoned him - leaving him with no food or electricity.

I know sometimes it takes a wakeup call with people - but I believe they only get so hardened that they need a wakeup call becuase of the lack of compassion and understanding from others underlying all of the substance abuse problems to begin with.

Anyway - transits look good for both he and I this year, so I'm more hopeful.



I'll step down from my soapbox now.

FL

waybread said:

The positive side of Neptune might be an empowering spirituality, significant artistic ability, or just the capacity for simple wonderment at the beauty of a walk by the ocean at sunset.

Click to expand...

That is also my view.

[deleted response to non-astrological comment - Moderator]

Originally Posted by Kingsley
Capricorns can tend to be hard on themselves. The inner speak for the Capricorns is "get to work" "you are only ok if you work hard" etc. The hard and relentless - traditional Father has left his prescence in the early development of the Capricorn infant. Perhaps Dad was always at work and the child didnt think he was important enough? Unless that is, he went to work and worked hard.'


My Dad was a Cappy - he got drunk every Friday/Saturday night. The man he thought was his father sent him to get his Granny to help with the birth of his 'sister' when he was just five years old. He was never allowed to return home. This man had married his mother just after Dad was born and Dad had worshipped him. The rejection definitely scarred him for life.
His chart has Pluto opposing his Sun from Cancer and Neptune quincunx from Leo!

Pluto on Neptune, to Lin

Lin,

You said:

Lin said:

the only weapon we have against Neptune is Pluto is.... ultimate consciousness and truth. Being scrupulously honest with ones self and others.

Click to expand...

Like some of the others here, I disagree with seeing Neptune as being all negative. But your post about the importance of Pluto with Neptune caught my attention because I have noticed that a LOT of the times when people are having an "identity crisis" they are having transiting (moving planets in the sky) Pluto (transformation) conjuncting (energy is combined with) birth Neptune (spirituality, also confusion). So all the "confusions" they had in life are being cleared up...and fast! This is also a time of major life challenges and being forced to see the world for what it is...rather than for how they WANT it to be. People start to "get real" in their life at these times and face the things they had been hiding from in their life. So I think Pluto can help "transform" the "negative Neptune" energy into something that doesn't allow people to "hide from reality" any more.

Plutonically Neptunic,

Tim

P.S. And I see that someone has already started a thread about this "reality effect" of Pluto over Neptune!
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14654

Re: Pluto on Neptune, to Lin

Freedom lover, I am sorry if I came across as unsympathetic. I actually spent a couple of years attending Al Anon meetings, in an effort to cope with a close family member's drinking problem.

(For any readers unfamiliar with Al Anon, it is not the same as "AA" or Alcoholics Anonymous, but a kind of sister program for family members of alcoholics.) I eventually stopped going because I had difficulty with the spiritual direction of this 12-step program, but I think these 2 programs have helped a lot of people. Sometimes a true bottoming-out experience is required, unfortunately, before people seek out this kind of support.

Capricorns are kind of interesting re: alcohol. Some really don't let themselves lose control over their bodies, but others feel sufficiently anxious and depressed that alcohol provides a kind of release. I am guessing that aspects--oh, and what's going on with Neptune--have a lot to do with the difference.

Re: Pluto on Neptune, to Lin

Hi...first to "wilson"
As an astrologer, one of the ways I ascertain if a Neptunian has a chance at "redemption"is studying the Pluto connections in the chart. Pluto is the antidote to Neptune.... although it is "internalized" later in life (usually after the second Jupiter return or after the Saturn return) and therefore, Neptune has a lot of time to do damage, if you get my drift.

Waybread...first, Joseph Campbell studied astrology and put it aside in favor of mythology (mythology IS more fun, lets face it...lol....) before we any of us were born. Read "A Fire in the Mind", Campbells incredibly detailed bio.

Let us take 100 true Neptunians..... my experience has shown me....and, by the way, I think life is GREAT, but I call a spade a spade... to do otherwise is to be Neptunian...
my experience tells me that 95 of these Neptunians will have great difficulty navigating the roads and waterways of life because whereever they turn, there is a Neptunian detour.

The other 5 will be shamans, great spiritual teachers, and others who have learned how to control their Neptunian impulses and who have SEEN the "fantasy" for what it is.

It is true that there are people who LIVE in a spiritual context, like certain of the clergy, monks, fishermen and other who live near and for the seas.... but again, few and far between...and we are discussing those who live in the material world I think...


We NEED diversion, distraction, make believe, music, movies, books and "play" in order to deal with life, which is very very hard....a "job", in fact.


I tell my clients: Here is a representation of our solar system. Look at all these planets...most of them much larger than earth.... here is Neptune....see how gigantic it is? Now look at the planet that represents "happiness".... tiny Venus, usually outnumbered.
We need to settle for "truth", structure, intellectual balance. AFTER we have those things, we need to connect with our Creator. We need to experience GOD....each in our own way.... as each of us has a "spiritual potential"
just as we have potential for everything else....success, talent, partnership, ethics, friendship.... all is POTENTIAL... including spiritual potential.


Most people settle for Dogma. For me, it is not enough.

I went through the Neptunian stage, and luckily for me, because Pluto sextiles my Uranus, which in turn trines my Neptune, I came out on the other side.

I can have one drink. I have done some drugs in past decades but always knew, somewhere inside that it had to be a diversion only.... not a substitute for a way of life.

I've been tempted into addictive activities, but my Saturn sextile my Sun overrode my Neptunian temtation. I've always known when to stop.

I was GIVEN that when I was born. It could have gone the other way. I had an alcoholic father. Luckily I have my mother's genetics that way. BUT
MY CHART is BALANCED. I didn't balance it... that's the way I was born. Yes, I had to work at it, but

The PROMISE of my chart was Saturn-Uranus sextile Pluto Sun. I knew as I grew older that I would be able to balance my desires and temptations.


BUT there are people with Neptune at the angles.... and they have the worst time. People with Neptune conj. Mercury or square Venus or opposition Mars.... who feel a compulsion they can't control or understand. And that is the job of the astrologer. To explain the INDIVIDUAL'S chart to him/her, and bring a glimmer of truth into the Neptunian's consciousness.

The hardest thing for me to do with a client is to try to bring him/her to an understanding of the nature of Neptune, and that much of their behavior, the behavior that gets them into so much trouble, is caused by this energy that they can't even see....
that has disguised itself (disguise is Neptunian)..... and the behavior that they compulsively repeat year after year is what is standing in the way of their having a REAL life.... not a life filled with impulse and reactionary acts which later they can't explain, even to themselves.

Neptune is never "exhausted". It can only be overcome by facing it and saying, "You are a liar."

Remember in "The Exorcist" when the old priest says to the young priest..."don't listen to him... don't listen to his words, he lies"......THAT is Neptune.

It can make you feel better than you are, worse than you are, sick when you are well, well when you are sick. Good when you are bad, evil when you are good, tired when you have energy, guilty when you've done nothing, fearful when there's nothing to fear. The only thing you can count on is that whatever Neptune brings to you in the way of thoughts or feelings, it's not true.


Neptune is the great "nothing." We fill it up with whatever we have at hand at the moment. It is here one moment and gone the next. In order for anything to "actualize" from Neptune, another planet must be activating at the same time.

One of the worst sins of Neptune is the "altered state" it produces during addicting behavior. People who are addicts of all types including shopping addicts describe a feeling of this "altered state" when spending money.

Same thing happens with gamblers. Gamblers don't care about winning. It's the "gamble" that produces the altered state.

I've been studying Neptune for 20 years. It gives very very little while it takes back much more. Neptune's energy is one of bringing oblivion.... that is the altered state.

The "dissolving" that Isabel Hickey and other astrologers talk about is a very "idealized" and rare happening.

The dissolution of the "ego" to allow the spirit to be part of the person's everyday life. It's a wonderful thought and we who care about the spiritual life wish and hope and pray for this in ourselves and others, but the truth is that it is very rare.

The playwright John Patrick had one of his characters say,


"pain makes man think
thought makes man wise
and wisdom makes life endurable."

Neptune may have something to do with the pain, but it has little to do with the wisdom.
Anyway, that is my experience of 30 years as an astrologer.
LIN

Re: Pluto on Neptune, to Lin

Just beautifully written, Lin!

And it's OK with me if we "agree to disagree" on Netpune's nature. [Hey, if Neptune were easily defined and dissected, it wouldn't be Neptune!] I've enjoyed this discussion.

I think it is ironic that if we look at psychologists' theories such as Maslow's heirarchy of human needs, with self-actualization at the pinnacle, or M. Csikszentmihalyi's theory on "flow", we come pretty close to astrologer Steven Forrest's definition of Neptune's gifts:

"The ability to experience serenity, inspiration, and transcendence in the face of life's dramas." (The Changing Sky, p. 67)

The "trickster" side is "self destructive patterns of escape," to which alcoholism so clearly belongs.

You are probably familiar with Liz Greene's book, The Astrological Neptune and the Quest for Redemption. She doesn't seem to see oblivion as a factor so much as a yearning for redemption, which is a bit more self-conscious!

Intriguingly, AA, which helps recovering alcoholics, is based on a 12-step program that is very Neptunian in its insistence on surrender to one's Higher Power.

I grant you that oftentimes people will drink to excess to "get out of the day."

I have trouble with the "oblivion" thesis, however, because human beings evolved from Day One with a Neptunian consciousness, from what I can glean from archaeological evidence, such as the cave paintings at Lascaux. Isn't this Joseph Campbell's point, as well? Early people or traditional hunter-gatherers lived in a world just saturated with shamanism, magic, and myth. Oblivion wouldn't have worked well as a survival mechanism.

Rather, I think the problem is that modernity stripped out the traditional magical world view, but without positive Neptunian activities to replace it. Modernity substituted Reality TV, "recreational" drugs, and a string of pop self-help gurus.

I don't think there is such a thing as a pain-free life, whether one has an afflicted Neptunian or something else. At some point, Ken and Barbie get out of the wrapped box, and get dinged up by life. But I think Neptune offers some choices, including a working and healthy spirituality and ability to enjoy the small things of daily life, or escapism--whether into another TV Reality show or alcoholism. Once choices like the latter are made and addiction sets in, however, future choices become so much harder.

Oh, well. First house Neptune square Jupiter, here. W.

Lin,

My view might be much the same as yours, but I would express it differently. Or maybe we don't agree at all. You can tell me.

It seems to me that when *any* planet is out of balance by not only dominating a chart by placement, but also by difficult aspects and so on, this is what catches our eye in natal charts and sets of warning signals. Let me give one example of what I see as *danger*, someone fairly close to me. He has been lost since he was a child. Addiction is a *huge* problem.

Triple conjunction in Cancer, Saturn/Sun/Mecury, exact. All the planets inconjunct Neptune, at about 1 degree orb. Pluto square the same three, under 5 degrees. Venus opposite Neptune, about 1 degree. And Neptune in the 4th, so it's angular.

I don't see Neptune is one bit more negative than positive though, not as a planet. To me it is where it is and how it works in combination in individual charts that shows whether it will be more positive or negative.

Re: Pluto on Neptune, to Lin

You quoted: "The ability to experience serenity, inspiration, and transcendence in the face of life's dramas." (The Changing Sky, p. 67)

Absolutely.... that is what I meant by the ideal.... but most people in urban environments have come to need "instant wisdom.... instant transcendence" and that's where we get into trouble.
In simpler times connecting with "God" was the JOB of the shaman, the priest, etc. And ordinary people spent 18 hours a day on survival. They didn't have cigarettes, scotch and ganga....lol... well, maybe some cultures did.... as in Peruvians who chew coca leaves.... but they do that for energy so they can do more work, but I don't want to digress....


so much as a yearning for redemption,

"modern man" yearns for redemption (at least some of us do) but Neptune will take us down streets which are blind alleys and tell us... follow me... I will show you the way....like a shill at a carnival. True redemption comes from working at connecting with the transcended.... and it's hard to do in our world. It takes time, focus and inspiration.

JUst as an aside, I have so many people who want to study astrology.... BUT... when I tell them they have to read, study, do homework and put aside at least 2 hours.... a measily 2 hours a week, they last about a month or so and then tell me they don't have the time. LOL

Becoming proficient in astrology can only be accomplished by hard work.... it isn't given out like candy... I tell students it's like learning Chinese or Russian.... a different alphabet.... but everyone want immediate gratification, and THAT is where Neptune says....you can HAVE instant connection with God, just follow me......drink this, take this, do this.... doesn't that feel GREAT!! Now, keep doing this over and over and over and it'll keep feeling great!


Intriguingly, AA, which helps recovering alcoholics, is based on a 12-step program that is very Neptunian in its insistence on surrender to one's Higher Power.

AA is anti Neptune. The first step is to "admit we were powerless over alcohol"
But.... we could put any addictive behavior in there.... powerless over drugs, powerless over spending, powerless over gambling....
the important thing is to ADMIT POWERLESSNESS - humble onesself and say "I don't have the answer. I can't control this. I have to ELIMINATE this behavior, this substance, this belief that I have the power to control" JUST SAY NO TO NEPTUNE

THAT is when we are directed to surrender to one's Higher Power. A higher power is NOT Neptunian. Neptune did NOT creat you. (Don't take this to mean I do not validate Neptune on a psysiological level....I am not dealing with physics now)

Most people are born with the means to live a "functional" and authentic life. CHILDHOOD trauma and the people who fail to love, support and protect the child cause that child to seek anesthesia so that they don't have to feel abandoned, betrayed or unloved. And they grow up to be people who continue to "use" this skill of emotional anesthesia and negative detachment because they don't know they have become dysfunctional. A 12 year old who is drinking doesn't realize he is ruining his future. He just knows it feels better and he doesn't have deal with his problems alone... he has this friend called Neptune.... only he calls it liquor or pot or shoplifting or doing some other "secret" activity as a way of avoiding (Neptune word) the sadness in his life.

I am NOT implying in any way that we could do without Neptune. If you believe in the Bible you will see that God created the lights in the heavens "for signs and for seasons" and we, as creatures with brains and intellegence, are meant to find a way to use Neptune and not allow it to use us.

Without Neptune there would be no Water Lillies by Monet. But how many Chopins and Monets are there in the world compared to the billions who have died (and killed.... physically, mentally and emotionally) from addictive substances, especially alcohol???

LIN

Re: Pluto on Neptune, to Lin

These aspects are very accurate to one of the charts i know.

Alcohol seems to be an avenue of escape for some?

Well Sun squaring Neptune, Sun in a Water Sign, Moon square Neptune are all traditional markers for alcoholism used by medical astrologers. I have no doubt really that alcoholism can be genetic, and it can certainly be a "learned" behavior. Am Scotch/Irish and near half Indian and a T-totaller..but I have been obsessed with others in my life that drink. Both Grandfathers were alcoholics and a father who drank off and on years apart from each time, but no inclination for it myself so the genetic componet can be overcome. I had eight siblings and none of them drink/drank either. Neptune fogs that fine line between when someone becomes an alcoholic or someone who drinks often, but isn't dependent upon it, and the fine line between when we WANT a drink or when we NEED one.
Body weight, body fat, and body structure all denote how much it takes to get drunk in of itself, and shows how soon a dependency upon it could develop. A 6' 225 pound male could drink two 16oz beers a day for the rest of his life and never become an alcoholic...only when he feels a compulsion that he "needs" those two beers is when it may become a problem.

The Sun squaring Neptune aspect in a person is someone who may sooner or later search for transcendency in their lives, but they may choose alcohol over yoga or even formal religion. They may get wrapped up in all kinds of escapism, other drugs, sex, withdrawing into a fantasy world on one level or another. It is good that they seek transcendency... for "soft" aspects with Neptune may trigger no desire to look outside one's own ego often enough if a too strong of a Sun is present otherwise...a selfish life. Alcoholism is a very selfish expression in life also but it is caused where the ego has been weakened rather than too large. Alcohol alters the poor ego and they become egomaniacs while drinking and still out of balance.

A positive thing is they are actually searching for transcendency...the negative thing...it may take many many disillusionments before they find a healthy and spiritually fulfilling walk. Sun square Neptune natives soak up too much of the good and bad psychic forces around them and often strongly feel the need to escape the "bad vibes" of the world around them they have perceived. Furthermore, because they also pick up the good things, they are driven by guilt for not embracing it by drinking even more to escape the pain of that guilt... The very reason you can't nag and guilt trip an alcoholic into stopping their drinking...it just gives them more ammunition to hate themselves with. A vicious cycle develops. Like I have talked about in a Sun squaring Neptune thread in the past...their main problem is they will not face up to their problems and reality often enough. That alone is a huge reason for Sun square Neptune being actually the main astrological indicator for alcoholism in Diane Cramer's medical astrology books. "How to give an astrological health reading" and the complimentary dictionary for the book. But it can't be the only one for not everyone has the aspect that are alcoholics obviously...maybe they are the hardest to change. All of which leads me to believe that transits of Neptune making Hard aspects to natal planets trigger these behaviors too.

I would also assume that Sun square Neptune can make you a victim of others "escapes". I am an Alanon member and a Sun square Neptune native whose also been the dependent of an alcoholic in the past..My identity was "dissolved" by the alcoholic..when you feel you to have to do everything for an alcoholic... your "self" becomes undefined. Neptune squaring the Sun is described in the same way...the self (Sun's Ego) is dissolved by Neptune's (dissolving and blurring effect) at the square angle.

AA says itself ...Alcoholics are people who can't get HONEST with THEMSELVES. and that they will never stop drinking for long until they do. I do occasionally attend AA meetings and about all Alanon meetings and ..using the Neptune astrological key word system I analyze these people and hear those Neptunian key words used in the common language of each of their stories every time I attend. I hear them in the Alanon people as well. These places only affirm my belief in Astrology's and Neptune's symbology. It always makes me think ..dang... I wish I knew what their charts looked like LOL

gaer and franklin have expressed my ideas better than I could.

Lin, you have wisdom to burn!

But I apparently take a less cynical view of human nature. Maybe because I spent time involved in an urban religious community and an urban-based human potential movement in the past, I have a more optimistic view of people's commitments to expressing healthy spirituality and happiness in more positive ways. I currently live in a rural area, where many of my neighbours attend church, study reiki, commune with the nature that surrounds us, and so on.

I don't see Al Anon as anti-Neptune at all, based upon my participation in it for several years. Neptune is both the agony and the ecstasy. I was very clear, in the Al Anon group I attended, that the members (majority wives of alcoholics) who did find this 12-step program helpful were spiritual people. "Surrender to a higher power" is very Neptunian, in the sense Liz Greene defined it in my post above.

Well, of course Neptune isn't God--i. e., the Creator, Providence, the God of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. This goes without saying. Rather, Neptune describes a kind of mystical process of surrender.

One could debate how so-called primitive/traditional people spent their time. From having studied a few First Nations (e. g. Native Americans) in some depth; no, the groups I studied did not relegate spirituality to the shaman, and then themselves live strictly materialist lives. A shaman (medicine man/woman) was seen to have extraordinary powers, notably for healing the sick. But each individual lived a profoundly religious life, notably regarding the puberty vision-quest, totem species, and various rituals and tabus surrounding hunting and women's menstrual cycles.

I am glad we agree about Neptune and aesthetic experience. After all, without Neptune, that glass of Chateau Neuf du Pape would be just another 5 oz. of old grape juice. We also agree upon the need to study astrology seriously over several years before claiming any kind of expertise in it.

Ah, well. Those "pikers" put bread in the mouths of professional astrologers! No?

Freedom lover, I am sorry if I came across as unsympathetic. I actually spent a couple of years attending Al Anon meetings, in an effort to cope with a close family member's drinking problem.

Click to expand...

No, Waybread, you didn't -sorry if I came across as thinking you were. Actually I was thinking about some other responses to similar posts to the one I was making (that I had read in the past) that were very judgmental. Thinking about that as I started to write probably caused my post to come across that way. I don't defend his drinking ( although I do understand). But I do defend his being a good person even though he has a drinking problem. I hate it when people trash others with addictions with absolutely no compassion.

But, back to your post, Waybread. Actually, I got to thinking some more about your comment about his North Node in an intercepted house- and there is another avenue he can take, a little different than his previous NN journeys. And you're right, there is a little more growing up he needs to do. He's really very spiritually mature in many ways - but there is one area that is holding him back.

Also, I think I "see" this pattern in his chart. The ruler of his 7th and intercepted 9th is Mercury (r) in Scorpio in duplicated 11th. (Notice both houses have to do with "communication with others" - and it is his 3rd/9th house axis that is intercepted.) It is tightly conjunct the ruler of intercepted 3rd (Neptune). Ruler of the 9th (Sun in Scorpio) also in duplicated 11th. It is trine the ruler of his 12th - Mars in Cancer in the 7th as well as conjunct Lilith and Black Moon Lilith. (And what sign and house are Mars and Lilith in? - Cancer, the sign of the mother, and in the 7th house) This relationship with his mother must be really karmic.

It's really interesting about all the emphasis on the 3rd/9th houses and Mercury being retrograde and tightly conjunct Neptune: When he drinks, you can't tell it. He sounds "sober as a judge". He says that he can't express himself when he's not drinking - he has a hard time speaking up and being social when he's sober.

(Chart link again, if needed for reference, since it's a few posts back.)
View Chart of Friend with Alcoholism
(Click on image to enlarge)


Thanks again for all your help, Waybread

FL

Thank you, freedomlover (and everyone on this thread) for your feedback. It's how I learn astrology.

To all....regarding Neptune...

Everything I have said above is, first, coming from my professional experience as an astrologer and also my more than 15 year old study of Neptune as the core issue of the addict.

Without doubt, the easiest charts to read are those with heavy Neptunian positions and aspects. The list of the sins of Neptune hit home with all the clients I've read for over the past 25 years.

NOw....if I WEREN'T an astrologer, and if I didn't live in suburban NY state, I would not have the same clientelle, the same experiences, the same knowledge. One can only KNOW what one experiences.

And in that vein, I am also the daughter of an alcoholic, the wife of an alcoholic and because of my "ACOA" status, have always found myself connected to and with people of addictions of all types. So studying Neptune as a sideline in my astrological life was meant to be.

HOwever, before I ever thought of studying Neptune, I studied Saturn. And I beg and plead with any of you reading this to do the same if you are serious about really understanding astrology. Saturn is the key....the structure, the skeleton on which you will build your knowledge of astrology.

Read "A New Look at an Old Devil" by Liz Greene.

Once you understand that the planets are metaphors for all the various impulses in the human being, you can begin to understand how reading the map actually works. It is a fascinating study, and can be lifelong, because you NEVER know EVERYTHING, no matter how long you study.

And do you know WHY you can never know everything??? Neptune and Uranus. Even though we are meant to be able to "read" the heavens, it is a ponderous study. And you need to be able to do your own research.... meaning studying the charts of many many people, beginning with friends and others who will allow you into their personal lives.
Studying your OWN chart is very hard to do and maybe even impossible unless you are studying with a teacher who can help discover information that Neptune will want to hide from you.

One thing is obvious from this discussion: all astrologers have their own points of view, and we all have our own experience which makes it difficult to look at an issue from another astrologers point of view!!

I KNOW, intellectually, that Neptune is the key to finding and experiencing God....but... my experience tells me that mostly Neptunian influence subverts and contaminates the ordinary individuals quest for wisdom. EVERYone has a Neptune. The key...and this is always and forever the truth... the KEY is the individual chart. We cannot and should NEVER lump all signs, aspects, etc, together and say, for example, all people who have Neptune square the Sun will be addicts.

The TRUTH is that in most addicts Neptune will be trine some other planets, and be part of other patterns which we think of as Positive! How can this be? Because if the individual did NOT get the desired effect from the alcohol or drug when he/she began using it, a feeling of exhiliration, freedom, a sense of release, of "anesthesia" from pain, HE WOULD NOT CONTINTUE to use that substance! So therefore, Neptune gives the user, at least initially, what he has advertised!!
Get it? It's only LATER that when the person can no longer get the desired effect quickly and immediately does he have to increase the amount of the substance, and the frequency of use.... and therefore becomes an addict.

Neptune is devious. And it's subtlty becomes subliminal power which, without Saturn or Plutonian influences, will continue to lead one AWAY from the light. And those Saturn and Pluto influences must be the right ones - positive influences on the personal planets in the chart - or else they might actual AID Neptune into something even darker.

It really is, "the razor's edge."
LIN

Sure could of used this thread some years back. Don't let me interfere with the Neptune discussion...but anyone ever heard of spiritual thirst? My understanding is vague but what I had gathered, when people have difficult lives & all hope is exhausted, they tend turn to spirituality for magical answers but being the obscure concept that it is, they turn to alcohol or drugs in an attempt to capture that spiritual essence that they believe can transport them from the physical pain. Just my meager contribution to the topic.

If I could go back to the alcoholic tendencies...Self-disclosure here but I'm a 'recovering' alcoholic (someone brought-up? - 2/3rds Irish & fourth Italian) which the 12 step program was instrumental in the beginning though I believe it was just the idea of being among others who shared the same 'disease' rather then the steps that can take you so far. A promising new approach (sorry, don't know the founders name) is referred to as 'The Alcohol Cure' to which he encourages a digging into the reasons for numbing ourselves - gee, what a concept?

Someone had mentioned the Sun & Saturn? Well, the sun square saturn is there. Many had mentioned the capricorn? Sun is in capricorn & my mother, who is a quadruple capricorn, is a practicing alcoholic & pill junkie with all progressed into pisces -no reaching her. From what of learned, people drink to gain a sense of control which is certainly what us cappies are all about.

Few mentioned the moon but no mention of a libra moon - tipping the scales or bottoms up! Though I have no real afflictions to the moon, or at least from what I've calculated. However, the libra moon in the 3rd house tells me that I drank in order to be more comfortable in conversation among other things.

But what motivates, many have touched on the venus, mars & neptune. With venus squaring mars in the 4th house, the homelife & the mother was more than any sober person could deal with. Especially if the Italian capricorn mother uses guilt & shame to control. Now take that mars & square it to (neptune) in the 4th house & everybody around you diluted themselves - grandparents, aunts, uncles & the 12 year old cousin. You know no other type of environment.

I'm sure there other indications in the chart & feel free to dissect & ask questions. This has always been of interest but didn't want to touch it until I had more of an astrological understanding. I'm especially interested in natal, progressed & solar return aspects that indicate how & when one will turn their life around. I had many saturn & uranus aspects at the time but know there's more to it.

Hope this wasn't too much...