Does Saturn Placements Dampen/Reinforces/ and or Cancels out your Plutonian/Scorpioni

[Nickidan]

I consider myself Plutonian, but I also think I am Saturnian. This post is not about my astrology per se, but to give some insight, I have Saturn aspects to my moon, mercury, mars and sun. I also have a Scorpio moon, an active 8th house, and Pluto aspects to my Mars and Mercury personal planets.

What do you think? Does Saturn Placements Dampen/Reinforces/ and or Cancels out your Plutonian/Scorpionic influence?

[Krewster]

Perhaps you're assuming the answer to your question will depend on some understanding of the nature of the planets' influences...

while I would first reach for calculation which relative orbs are stronger (from the viewpoint of the personal planet being considered).

[greybeard]

Why would Saturn cancel out Pluto?
What is the rational basis for this premise?

Too often it happens that Saturn and Pluto reinforce one another, creating some very difficult conditions for the native.

There are many shared qualities* between the two planets. When two planets are "in harmony" their "waves" tend to reinforce rather than interfere with each other.

If you truly believe that Pluto has been canceled out in your own horoscope/life, you may want to examine these ideas:
1. Your self-assessment is not true-to-life. Most of us maintain a distorted and delusional self-concept. Four decades of studying astrology have led me to believe that the horoscope is true and accurate. If I find a discrepancy between "what the horoscope says" and what I believe to be the true situation, my assumption is that the error lies with me and not the horoscope.
2. Your understanding of astrology is deficient. If this is the case, time and experience should rectify the situation.
3. There is some very special condition in the horoscope that ameliorates or reduces the influence of Pluto. Pluto can be described, for many reasons, as the most powerful planet in the heavens. His very nature is ruthless, relentless, implacable. It would take some very powerful special condition in the horoscope to render him powerless.

* Fear, distrust, rigidity, isolation, hard conditions, absolutism....

[miquar]

Hi. I don't think that two placements ever cancel each other out. Take any two placements and you can find ways in which they reinforce each other and ways that they conflict, though some combinations lean more one way and some more the other way.

Where Saturn and Pluto (and/or Capricorn and Scorpio) are both emphasised in a chart, there is a strong awareness that the life of an individual is bound by collective needs and processes. There is also a natural attunement to what the needs of the collective are.

When this combination arises in a secure personality, there is a willingness to take responsibility for one's role in collective processes, sacrificing personal whims for the greater good, while at the same time acting consciously and creatively - with authenticity. There is an awareness of when to push and when to yield, because pride doesn't get in the way of clarity of perception.

When this combination arises in an insecure and defended person, there can be a pre-occupation with self-determination. This can manifest as a need to shut others out, or a need to control others. The sense of being bound by the fact of collectivity is still there, but it feels threatening.

In both cases there is a capacity for great determination.

Where there is a sense of tension between them, there is a tendency to side with Saturn (need to maintain the status quo and adhere to social mores) or Pluto (the need to express passionate and antagonistic feelings spontaneously).

Where there is a tendency to play this tension out through power struggles, it is useful to look at what it is inside one that drew one to that issue in the first place, though of course it may still be an issue that's worth fighting for.

[Nickidan]

Originally Posted by miquar

Hi. I don't think that two placements ever cancel each other out. Take any two placements and you can find ways in which they reinforce each other and ways that they conflict, though some combinations lean more one way and some more the other way.

Where Saturn and Pluto (and/or Capricorn and Scorpio) are both emphasised in a chart, there is a strong awareness that the life of an individual is bound by collective needs and processes. There is also a natural attunement to what the needs of the collective are.

When this combination arises in a secure personality, there is a willingness to take responsibility for one's role in collective processes, sacrificing personal whims for the greater good, while at the same time acting consciously and creatively - with authenticity. There is an awareness of when to push and when to yield, because pride doesn't get in the way of clarity of perception.

When this combination arises in an insecure and defended person, there can be a pre-occupation with self-determination. This can manifest as a need to shut others out, or a need to control others. The sense of being bound by the fact of collectivity is still there, but it feels threatening.

In both cases there is a capacity for great determination.

Where there is a sense of tension between them, there is a tendency to side with Saturn (need to maintain the status quo and adhere to social mores) or Pluto (the need to express passionate and antagonistic feelings spontaneously).

Where there is a tendency to play this tension out through power struggles, it is useful to look at what it is inside one that drew one to that issue in the first place, though of course it may still be an issue that's worth fighting for.

This is very interesting. I have a couple of questions for you!!! What do you determine as a secure personality and a insecure personality? How can you balance these two energies? And which planet do you think an individual will use and act out against and for?

[miquar]

Hi. Generally, I would describe a secure personality as someone who can be authentic but without taking themselves too seriously. An insecure personality is defensive in one way or another. In more specific terms we can associate a whole spectrum of behaviours - from secure to insecure - with any given theme or archetype. Thus the brief examples I suggested for a Saturn Pluto theme in my last post. Its important to think in terms of such a spectrum, because then the theme is seen as a process of moving from destructive to creative ways of being. But actually, striving to develop positive traits leads nowhere because it is a slightly modified form of taking oneself too seriously. We just have to acknowledge the negatives, refuse to continue to buy into the fears which lead us to behave that way, and let the positive traits arise naturally - in harmony with one another and with all life.

I think your other two questions are really the same question. The way to find a balance depends on the nature of the imbalance that one starts from. Having discerned what the nature of the imbalance, one can begin to observe compassionately the fears which are leading to imbalanced values, perception and behaviour. The chart gives clues to which of these two planets will be more consciously owned. A chart which is strong on earth and/or air is more likely to mean that Saturn is favoured. A fiery and/or watery person may favour Pluto. But obviously other features of the chart like aspects complicate the picture.

If Saturn and Pluto are in close aspect, its much more difficult to just side with one and ignore the other. Hard aspects of course suggest a greater sense of tension and conflict between them. Something like a personal planet in Capricorn in hard aspect to Pluto, or in Scorpio in hard aspect to Saturn, can also increase the urgency around getting the two types of energy working together.

But just having both planets strong has the feel of an aspect between them, as described in the text books, because they are both competing for influence within the native's psyche.