I think I just predicted my own death??!?!!?!

craft94

Well-known member
No, the chart doesn't scream death at me. You might think about death more than usual at this time. If you have a spouse or partner, the 8th might involve proceeds from the marriage, such as a shared income. The 8th indicates investments, vs. your own private resources which is a second house matter. In medical astrology the 8th rules the eliminative and sexual functions of the body. You might develop a particular interest in the "occult". Or detective novels, or anything dealing with deep, dark mysteries.

Please learn more astrology before you start jumping to unwarranted conclusions. A solar return is basically a still-frame transit chart. It may indicate the year ahead, but it will also miss major transits that occur later in your age year.

BTW, an astrologer named Richard Houck wrote a book called The Astrology of Death. He was significantly wrong in both the timing and manner of his own death.

If you are really interested in your life expectancy, try this site:

http://deathclock.com/

It has to do with your birth date, whether you smoke and your body mass index, which are sensible predictors of longevity.
"Please learn more about astrology before you jump to unwarranted conclusions." There's no need to be condescending. I'm simply curious as to what the chart said, considering transits too. I was thinking maybe some kind of major life change, such as institutinalization (uranus in the 12th)

Does 8th house equate to occult in traditional astrology? I think if not actual physical death, the 8th house here represents the death of SOMETHING, a chance.

Also, I don't think the death clock site is as reliable as you think it is. Not everyone does by natural causes. Uranus and Neptune in the 8th makes me think I'm gonna die a sudden and mysterious death but you're right it's probably because I haven't studied astrology
 

david starling

Well-known member
Craft, there's something called the "life-line" in the divinitory art of Palmistry. In the late 1960's, it was very popular for a while, and it includes a "love-line" as well. I never really got into it, but people were fascinated by the idea of predicting longevity just by the line running down on the thumb side of the hand. There was also the idea that the left palm was about the life-span you would have if you didn't do anything to alter it, and the right was the actual one. Mine was (is) longer on the right than the left, and there's a bridge-line connecting a shorter life-line to a longer one that's not on the left Palm, only on the right. I made a huge change in life-path, and, retrospect, if fits in with changing over to the longer life-line. I never studied Palmistry seriously, or consulted a professional, but you might want to look into it on a casual level. I like the concept that we can live a longer or shorter life based on our actions, rather than believing it's preordained. That's what I was being facetious about with the joke about having an "expiration date" like a birthmark.
 

craft94

Well-known member
Craft, there's something called the "life-line" in the divinitory art of Palmistry. In the late 1960's, it was very popular for a while, and it includes a "love-line" as well. I never really got into it, but people were fascinated by the idea of predicting longevity just by the line running down on the thumb side of the hand. There was also the idea that the left palm was about the life-span you would have if you didn't do anything to alter it, and the right was the actual one. Mine was (is) longer on the right than the left, and there's a bridge-line connecting a shorter life-line to a longer one that's not on the left Palm, only on the right. I made a huge change in life-path, and, retrospect, if fits in with changing over to the longer life-line. I never studied Palmistry seriously, or consulted a professional, but you might want to look into it on a casual level. I like the concept that we can live a longer or shorter life based on our actions, rather than believing it's preordained. That's what I was being facetious about with the joke about having an "expiration date" like a birthmark.

I get that you were being facetious. You never said anything to bother me.
 

waybread

Well-known member
"Please learn more about astrology before you jump to unwarranted conclusions." There's no need to be condescending. I'm simply curious as to what the chart said, considering transits too. I was thinking maybe some kind of major life change, such as institutinalization (uranus in the 12th)

This was a plea, craft94, not condescension. People have the bejeesus scared out of them by Amateur Hour with novice astrologers dabbling in death prediction. Why should you expect something so dire? A well-tended Uranus is the great liberator, not something that sends you to a nursing home. I hope you can read more widely on the multiple meanings of each of the houses.

Does 8th house equate to occult in traditional astrology? I think if not actual physical death, the 8th house here represents the death of SOMETHING, a chance.

Please expand your reading. One book I recommend if you're interested in traditional astrology is Deborah Houlding, Houses, Temples of the Sky. The 8th house as a repository of occult matters is a modern western astrology interpretation. The 8th seems to deal with mysteries of various sorts. I have noticed that 8th house people think about death more than most people. With other chart factors being supportive, someone with an 8th house stellium might do well as a hospice nurse, funeral home director, or paramedic. 8th house people also seem to be private people. One thing the 8th house does not indicate is your literal death. This was understood in ancient times.

Also, I don't think the death clock site is as reliable as you think it is. Not everyone does by natural causes. Uranus and Neptune in the 8th makes me think I'm gonna die a sudden and mysterious death but you're right it's probably because I haven't studied astrology

Where did I say the death clock site was reliable? Obviously, you could have a longish life expectancy by its measures, yet get run over by a bus tomorrow.

Rather than worry about your timing and manner of death, try living each day to your best potential, and explore metaphysical or religious beliefs that would allow you to face death with calm and courage.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
I only skimmed the replies, so forgive me if this is redundant.

A Solar Return chart is not read in a stand-alone manner. Transits for certain are not read in a stand alone manner.

The best way to accurately utilize a Solar return chart is to line it up with the natal, including houses, and see what themes are brought forward. The very best way to guage if those "transits" are going to affect you is to use in in conjunction with the profection chart, and determining which planets are active. Transits by and to those planets will be worth paying attention to.
 

craft94

Well-known member
This was a plea, craft94, not condescension. People have the bejeesus scared out of them by Amateur Hour with novice astrologers dabbling in death prediction. Why should you expect something so dire? A well-tended Uranus is the great liberator, not something that sends you to a nursing home. I hope you can read more widely on the multiple meanings of each of the houses.



Please expand your reading. One book I recommend if you're interested in traditional astrology is Deborah Houlding, Houses, Temples of the Sky. The 8th house as a repository of occult matters is a modern western astrology interpretation. The 8th seems to deal with mysteries of various sorts. I have noticed that 8th house people think about death more than most people. With other chart factors being supportive, someone with an 8th house stellium might do well as a hospice nurse, funeral home director, or paramedic. 8th house people also seem to be private people. One thing the 8th house does not indicate is your literal death. This was understood in ancient times.



Where did I say the death clock site was reliable? Obviously, you could have a longish life expectancy by its measures, yet get run over by a bus tomorrow.

Rather than worry about your timing and manner of death, try living each day to your best potential, and explore metaphysical or religious beliefs that would allow you to face death with calm and courage.
Me asking for a chart interpretation does not equate to not knowing enough about astrology. Of course, we could all benefit from learning more but that's most definitely not how it came across...the very fact that it is a plea is condescending... one thing I cannot stand is when moralizing and unsolicited advice is brought into an astrological discussion. Because I haven't even been worrying about death, at least not my own. I started this thread months ago. Something reminded me of it, and i wanted to know what people thought these transits did mean, since they don't mean death.

I agree with you; death predictions are unethical, because it gets people all scared, when in reality, the chart is most likely predicting something else entirely. But then again, there are things like this: http://bobmarksastrologer.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5825 If I were in Bob's situation, I certainly wouldn't say, "you're gonna die!" but if an astrology does see something that could indicate some sort of danger (could be death, could be something else) then isn't it an astrologer's job to warn that person (while delivering this news in an optimistic, helpful way so as not to get the client unreasonably scared)?

I feel like the 8th house often represents a metaphorical death...

I'm inclined to think that this chart could be indicating a mental breakdown or some sort of institutionalization, because that's what I feel like makes sense with the story of my life, please don't tell me this means I haven't researched astrology, this is just my own opinion and I'm not even worried, just curious. I'm not a fatalistic person so whatever it is ,I think it can be changed.
 

waybread

Well-known member
craft94, here's what you posted. If you didn't know you, how would you read the following?

I think I just predicted my own death??!?!!?!

I read somewhere that SR Ascendant in Natal 4th house could indicate year of death. I would normally shrug this off, except it isn't the only indication. My SR Ascendant in Virgo is also conjunct my natal Chiron, a year characterized by painful wounds, I'd imagine. They say Pluto is the planet of death, and the 8th is the house of death, and I'd normally shrug this off too - Pluto has been transiting my 8th house for quite some time now and I haven't been worried in the slightest (though a bit disappointed by the lack of powerful intense sex lol) - but again, it isn't the only indicator. In October of 2020, Pluto will be conjunct my natal Uranus (still in my natal 8th house) at 22 degrees Capricorn, with Saturn (bringer of death in traditional astrology?) close by at 25 degrees. Sudden death? Freak accident? Neptune ( at 20 degrees natal) probably brings some confusion and mystery surrounding the incident, idk). Obviously, since Uranus and Neptune are squaring my Sun/Mercury natally, SR Saturn and Pluto are also squaring my Sun. SR Lilith is opposing my Sun too, which I'd assume to be a bad thing? While retrograde Mars (planet of accidents?) in it's home sign isn't in direct opposition to my Sun, it is an opposition by sign and there's eventually going to be a transit, once it goes direct. My SR Vertex is conjunct my natal Saturn in retrograde... scary!I've also read that nodes were prominent in death charts: SR NN is conjunct my natal Asc! My SR MC is also conjunct my Asc by 2 degrees, which I think is supposed to be a good aspect but in this context, could it indicate a public death? I also see SR Uranus is conjunct my natal Moon/SN conjunction... by 4 degrees, but still. My Moon is situated in the 12th house and the thought of Uranus entering my 12th house is scary enough on it's own.

What are your thoughts on this chart?? I know it's a long time away but it's freaking me out a little bit.


I know most astrologers consider it unethical to predict death these days, and I can understand why, and I don't necessarily disagree, but if this chart doesn't scream "death" to you, what does it say? Like, what else can all those negative aspects represent? Often people hear that something in a chart relates to death and they'll freak out even though it's only one aspect, but there are multiple death indicators here, and that's worrying.
 

waybread

Well-known member
I read the thread you posted on the Bob Marks forum and am just appalled that a professional astrologer would post this kind of material.

He said himself that a lunar return chart, which he used in his traffic fatality prediction, usually is not diagnostic. Presumably Mr. Marks is psychic, or else trying to drum up more business from emotionally vulnerable people.

Many people are terrified of death, and Bob Marks presumably charges for his services.

I would further think that if Pluto in the 12th but partile the ascendant wants you, deciding not to drive on that day means it will act up in some other fashion.

Marks said the driver who killed his client was a "secret enemy" but this is a big stretch. The other driver had no personal animosity to the client. Short-distance driving is a third house matter, incidentally.

Which points up the problem. If you read up on astrologers of death prediction, they don't all agree and will give you different answers.

Moreover, the traditional methods were developed when the average person's life expectancy was short and infant mortality rates were high. I think in ancient Rome, the average life expectancy was in the 30-year range. Prior to the invention of antibiotics in the 20th century, a simple infection might be enough to kill you.

Today the average life expectancy for young people in the US is in their mid- to-late 70s. The planets didn't somehow magically realign their orbits for this major change to take place.

In India where astrological death prediction is more common, I have seen newspaper accounts of people who didn't like their prediction-- and committed suicide to avoid what they thought would be a medically difficult death. Hello? Click? If death prediction worked, these men would be required to live out their fate. In another case, a well-known astrologer predicted his death date in the media, and quietly sat home to await it. It didn't happen.

I could go on in this fashion, but just to repeat: no, you did not just predict your own death.
 

craft94

Well-known member
craft94, here's what you posted. If you didn't know you, how would you read the following?

Yes, and as I've said, that was months ago. That's not what I said when I restarted the thread. You should know. You replied when I posted it then too.

I'm done. Say anything more about this issue, and I'll ignore you. I really don't enjoy fighting with strangers over the internet...but me saying "this is worrying" does not mean you need to plea me to study astrology.
 
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craft94

Well-known member
In India where astrological death prediction is more common, I have seen newspaper accounts of people who didn't like their prediction-- and committed suicide to avoid what they thought would be a medically difficult death.

Yes, and that's exactly why I agree that death prediction is wrong.

I don't necessarily think it's impossible though. I've seen a child's death depicted in a horary chart (before the child died, I didn't pick up on it then) and I'm skeptical of horary, but I don't think it does any good to tell someone, "you're gonna die!" because it's never something you can predict with 100% accuracy, because in most cases, it means something else entirely. 5th house and 8th house could both mean a lot of things; in this case, it just happened to mean a child's death. I would normally interpret that differently.
 

waybread

Well-known member
craft94, there is no point in arguing, I agree. This isn't what I am doing. We actually agree on several points.

Here's a case in point to your last post to me.

A few years ago, I had a colonoscopy. My brother had recently died of colon cancer that wasn't detected till Stage 4, and my MD agreed this was a wise precautionary procedure for me to take. I cast a horary chart asking what would be the outcome of this test. (Not, "do I have colon cancer?") Subtle difference, but an outcome could have been the test showing fatal colon cancer. Well, the chart looked like a big piece of bad news, with a troubled 8th and 6th house. I took a deep breath, read further in my medical astrology books, and recognized that the colon is an 8th house matter, and predicted I wouldn't get a death sentence.

It turned out that the colonoscopy was incomplete (my colon was too twisted for the scope to get all the way up,) and I had to go back for a colonography later-- so the reality was that the test was inconclusive. (The subsequent colonography revealed that I was fine.) I posted my horary chart (attached) as a test exercise on another forum-- and a really good horary astrologer looked at it and thought it didn't bode well. But see what you make of it. I had another colonoscopy more recently, and am still fine.

Point being, a horary chart may reveal some kind of truth, but it may not be the obvious surface meaning. Many of us are not skilled enough to discern when the 8th house means death, when it means the colon, or when it has a hidden subtext of whether the querent stands to inherit sometime soon and might run up her credit card debt now.

The image that always comes to my mind is Mickey Mouse in the Disney cartoon Fantasia, playing The Sorcerer's Apprentice. I think we need a lot of humility about the limits of our ability before we start playing God with people's lives.

On the question of whether a death prediction could be beneficial, in giving a family member time to prepare for Grandma's death, my response is: tell Grandma you love her now. If possible, visit her now. If not, write to her, phone her, let her know how much she's meant to you, now.

If you want to plan your own future, just enjoy each day now, get your financial affairs settled now. Tell people you love them now.

Further, are you familiar with choice-centered astrology? I don't believe in a fatalistic, deterministic astrology. You can take steps to create an empowered 8th house.

tsmall, I looked at profections for the year of my brother's death. Jupiter in the 4th house.
 

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tsmall

Premium Member
craft94, there is no point in arguing, I agree. This isn't what I am doing. We actually agree on several points.

Here's a case in point to your last post to me.

A few years ago, I had a colonoscopy. My brother had recently died of colon cancer that wasn't detected till Stage 4, and my MD agreed this was a wise precautionary procedure for me to take. I cast a horary chart asking what would be the outcome of this test. (Not, "do I have colon cancer?") Subtle difference, but an outcome could have been the test showing fatal colon cancer. Well, the chart looked like a big piece of bad news, with a troubled 8th and 6th house. I took a deep breath, read further in my medical astrology books, and recognized that the colon is an 8th house matter, and predicted I wouldn't get a death sentence.

It turned out that the colonoscopy was incomplete (my colon was too twisted for the scope to get all the way up,) and I had to go back for a colonography later-- so the reality was that the test was inconclusive. (The subsequent colonography revealed that I was fine.) I posted my horary chart (attached) as a test exercise on another forum-- and a really good horary astrologer looked at it and thought it didn't bode well. But see what you make of it. I had another colonoscopy more recently, and am still fine.

Point being, a horary chart may reveal some kind of truth, but it may not be the obvious surface meaning. Many of us are not skilled enough to discern when the 8th house means death, when it means the colon, or when it has a hidden subtext of whether the querent stands to inherit sometime soon and might run up her credit card debt now.

The image that always comes to my mind is Mickey Mouse in the Disney cartoon Fantasia, playing The Sorcerer's Apprentice. I think we need a lot of humility about the limits of our ability before we start playing God with people's lives.

On the question of whether a death prediction could be beneficial, in giving a family member time to prepare for Grandma's death, my response is: tell Grandma you love her now. If possible, visit her now. If not, write to her, phone her, let her know how much she's meant to you, now.

If you want to plan your own future, just enjoy each day now, get your financial affairs settled now. Tell people you love them now.

Further, are you familiar with choice-centered astrology? I don't believe in a fatalistic, deterministic astrology. You can take steps to create an empowered 8th house.

tsmall, I looked at profections for the year of my brother's death. Jupiter in the 4th house.

W, I remember that. I remember trying to talk you out of that horary, since it went against everything you believe about astrology.

Jupiter in the 4th, as the killing planet? I love the allusion to Mickey and the mops. It's what my astrology brothers and I (and you on occasion) have talked about for years. Do not meddle in that which you ultimately cannont control.
 

sabumnim

Banned
You proponents of predicting your death in advance, (based on your solar return), please be aware that the Solar Return (as well as the Lunar return) is a highly unreliable method of prediction and I have been studying my own solar returns for nearly 30 straight years !

My own birth time is from a hospital baby book, and the birth time has since been rectified, based on years of transits, progressions, arcs, and relocations.

Unfortunately, having an accurate birth time still can yield an inconclusive solar return.

I like good old fashioned transits, first, followed by Secondary Progressions.

Solar Arcs are a big fail, as well.

I am a big believer in midpoints, though, especially transits to the Sun/Moon midpoint.

As far as the Bob Marks astrology forum goes....ha ha, I think that many of the folks on that site are just plain psychos, how about weirdos ? But, it all obviously starts with Bob, himself ! Ironically, Bob never posts much on his own forum, too lazy? But then, neither does anyone else ! It's a forum abandoned by most, much like a leper colony ?
 
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waybread

Well-known member
W, I remember that. I remember trying to talk you out of that horary, since it went against everything you believe about astrology.

Jupiter in the 4th, as the killing planet? I love the allusion to Mickey and the mops. It's what my astrology brothers and I (and you on occasion) have talked about for years. Do not meddle in that which you ultimately cannont control.

With all due respect, tsmall, you do not know everything I believe about astrology. I certainly did not word the horary question as a death prediction, if this is what you mean. An unwanted colonoscopy result is not a death sentence, as some people do beat late-stage colon cancer, although they are a minority. I have no recollection of your trying to "talk me out of that horary."

Where did I refer to Jupiter in the 4th as "the killing planet?" I did not take it that way in the (separate) profection chart I did for the year of my brother's death. This example is just to suggest that the 8th house is not such a good diagnostic. In my metaphysical beliefs, my brother moved into a different dimension, and Jupiter is the planet of faith.

I am glad you liked my Disney allusion, though.
 
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craft94

Well-known member
You proponents of predicting your death in advance, (based on your solar return), please be aware that the Solar Return (as well as the Lunar return) is a highly unreliable method of prediction and I have been studying my own solar returns for nearly 30 straight years !

My own birth time is from a hospital baby book, and the birth time has since been rectified, based on years of transits, progressions, arcs, and relocations.

Unfortunately, having an accurate birth time still can yield an inconclusive solar return.

I like good old fashioned transits, first, followed by Secondary Progressions.

Solar Arcs are a big fail, as well.

I am a big believer in midpoints, though, especially transits to the Sun/Moon midpoint.

As far as the Bob Marks astrology forum goes....ha ha, I think that many of the folks on that site are just plain psychos, how about weirdos ? But, it all obviously starts with Bob, himself ! Ironically, Bob never posts much on his own forum, too lazy? But then, neither does anyone else ! It's a forum abandoned by most, much like a leper colony ?
I find Solar Returns to be very reliable...not necessarily for predicting death. Lunar Returns? Yes and no. I know this makes me sound obsessive but in an experiment to see how reliable they are, I've been looking at my lunar returns for the past year and comparing it to what I've written in my journal/what I actually remember happening that month. I generally find that the months just go by too fast to really mean anything, but I have noticed that during my most climatic months, a lunar return angle was conjunct the SR moon (which is also the ruler of the SR chart 2015-2016).
 
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craft94

Well-known member
waybread;744775 Point being said:
I agree! and I'm glad to hear you're fine.

Just in case you misunderstood me, no one actually predicted a child's death in the horary chart, or if they did, they kept it to themselves for ethical reasons. Only that the person I asked about was going through something difficult that may prevent him from responding to me. It was only in retrospect, after I heard the news (which was a shock), that I noticed it in the chart. 5th house-8th house square could mean many things but in this case, a child's death was actually it.
 

ashriia

Well-known member
I like good old fashioned transits, first, followed by Secondary Progressions.

Solar Arcs are a big fail, as well.

Yeah Me too.

Transits for the catalyst. Secondary Progressions for all the players involved. And then, I'll look at the solar return followed by lunar for the rest of it.

I don't use solar arcs much either, since the progressions in a bi-wheel with the natal will complete the picture.
 

sabumnim

Banned
I find Solar Returns to be very reliable...not necessarily for predicting death. Lunar Returns? Yes and no. I know this makes me sound obsessive but in an experiment to see how reliable they are, I've been looking at my lunar returns for the past year and comparing it to what I've written in my journal/what I actually remember happening that month. I generally find that the months just go by too fast to really mean anything, but I have noticed that during my most climatic months, a lunar return angle was conjunct the SR moon (which is also the ruler of the SR chart 2015-2016).

When I got into the astrology business back in the 1970's, the glamour boy at that time was this opera star turned astrologer named Noel Tyl.

Tyl was feted like some rock star and I have no idea why, in the same way that I do not completely understand why Donald Trump is popular or even the future President ! My own natal chart is quite weak and not very powerful, but some charts are perhaps better (luckier?) than others ?

Tyl then touted his encyclopedic, 12 volume Principals and Practice of Astrology, with b.s. spin and marketing similar to a New York ad agency ? which included the vastly over rated Solar Return and the equally overrated Lunar Return, complete with diagrams and testimonials and it was peddled to us in the astrology community like swiss cheese.

Meanwhile, HITLER was given a profile in Tyl's Principles series ? What for ? , we know that all of you Capricorns have a little bit of "Nazi" in you, why study Hitler? LOL you might as well study Donald Trump !

Fortunately, I am not sucked in, that easily ?

Companies like Neil Michelsen's Astro Computing Services made a freaking fortune back then, printing out solar returns and lunar returns for the public, at a buck a shot !

But, here's the problem. The Solar Return is bullsh*t and highly over-rated and astrologers like Noel Tyl deceived the public merely to sell their books !

And my own home library has all types of books; Tyl's books, Hand's books, books on the solar return like Alexander Volguine's, and I even took in a live seminar from the late Lois Rodden on Solar Returns, Lunar Returns, and even Mercury Returns !

Well, 40 years later, ask Herr Tyl what he thinks of solar returns and lunar returns, now ! LOL

Tyl disowns them ! Thinks they don't work for him, yet he wrote books about this technique ! But, guess what, his new love, which he touts in his newer books, is solar arcs, which absolutely REEK, FAILS, when it comes to accuracy and relevancy !

I had a personal reading done once by Tyl and the natal reading absolutely s*cked !

So yes, solar and lunar returns are a big fail ! Then, there is the thorny question of which solar return location works best, the one for the birth location, or wherever you happen to be on the date of the solar return !

Thankfully, I won't be lulled into that debate !
 
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craft94

Well-known member
When I got into the astrology business back in the 1970's, the glamour boy at that time was this opera star turned astrologer named Noel Tyl.

Tyl was feted like some rock star and I have no idea why, in the same way that I do not completely understand why Donald Trump is popular or even the future President ! My own natal chart is quite weak and not very powerful, but some charts are perhaps better (luckier?) than others ?

Tyl then touted his encyclopedic, 12 volume Principals and Practice of Astrology, with b.s. spin and marketing similar to a New York ad agency ? which included the vastly over rated Solar Return and the equally overrated Lunar Return, complete with diagrams and testimonials and it was peddled to us in the astrology community like swiss cheese.

Meanwhile, HITLER was given a profile in Tyl's Principles series ? What for ? , we know that all of you Capricorns have a little bit of "Nazi" in you, why study Hitler? LOL you might as well study Donald Trump !

Fortunately, I am not sucked in, that easily ?

Companies like Neil Michelsen's Astro Computing Services made a freaking fortune back then, printing out solar returns and lunar returns for the public, at a buck a shot !

But, here's the problem. The Solar Return is bullsh*t and highly over-rated and astrologers like Noel Tyl deceived the public merely to sell their books !

And my own home library has all types of books; Tyl's books, Hand's books, books on the solar return like Alexander Volguine's, and I even took in a live seminar from the late Lois Rodden on Solar Returns, Lunar Returns, and even Mercury Returns !

Well, 40 years later, ask Herr Tyl what he thinks of solar returns and lunar returns, now ! LOL

Tyl disowns them ! Thinks they don't work for him, yet he wrote books about this technique ! But, guess what, his new love, which he touts in his newer books, is solar arcs, which absolutely REEK, FAILS, when it comes to accuracy and relevancy !

I had a personal reading done once by Tyl and the natal reading absolutely s*cked !

So yes, solar and lunar returns are a big fail ! Then, there is the thorny question of which solar return location works best, the one for the birth location, or wherever you happen to be on the date of the solar return !

Thankfully, I won't be lulled into that debate !

You're the only one debating.
 
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