2nd House Saturn

I am rather concerned about the condition of my 2nd house. Even though I'm still in my 20s, money, earnings, etc., is a monumental concern for me. I have a legitimate fear of living in poverty, so much so that it affects my psychology and self-esteem. Wealth is a strong desire for me, but I'm afraid this configuration implies it won't happen; a task that is seemingly insurmountable.

The implications of my Saturn retro. in Sag in H2 only seems to be negative. I know that Saturn is supposed to "teacher lessons". Are there any methods to strengthen my financial situation and implied by this configuration?

Jupiter, H2 ruler, is in Aries in H6.

dioskouris,

You're in your 20s and your ambition to strive only is but natural, especially with all this global recession that we are experiencing currently. I often say this to people who raise the question as to why do I have this placed here or that placed there - it's all because of karma. Your past life and what you carried forward into this life. It seems that you may have had to learn something in this life about the quintessence of the value of material wealth, hence Saturn's placement in this house. Perhaps because you never appreciated it previously or looked down at others who weren't so well off. It is contesting and shall continue to do so until death do you apart. In short, Saturn isn't very well placed in any of the fire signs. But that's not say that a Sagittarian Saturn is completely bad.

On the flip side Saturn in Sagittarius do give you one great thing - seriousness when it comes to studying and thus promotes high intellect. Philosophy too. People with this placement can make you speak the truth bravely and thus you could well be the type who accepts thing for the way they are early on particularly in financial matters (2nd house).

With Jupiter's ruling over this domain, there could well be room for expansion. But there appears to be a certain ambivalence between the two giants; one is trying to expand (Jupiter's rulership), the other restricts (Saturn).

Posting your chart could help as it may show other aspects to Saturn Rx in 2nd Sagittarius.

Try not to worry too much/give into the fear of how much you will or need to make before a certain age. Everyone has limits and nobody if perfect. You will make that what nature wants you to make and no more.

Hope this helps.

The_Saturnian said:

dioskouris,

You're in your 20s and your ambition to strive only is but natural, especially with all this global recession that we are experiencing currently. I often say this to people who raise the question as to why do I have this placed here or that placed there - it's all because of karma. Your past life and what you carried forward into this life. It seems that you may have had to learn something in this life about the quintessence of the value of material wealth, hence Saturn's placement in this house. Perhaps because you never appreciated it previously or looked down at others who weren't so well off. It is contesting and shall continue to do so until death do you apart. In short, Saturn isn't very well placed in any of the fire signs. But that's not say that a Sagittarian Saturn is completely bad.

On the flip side Saturn in Sagittarius does give you one great thing - seriousness when it comes to studying and thus promotes high intellect. Philosophy too. People with this placement can make you speak the truth bravely and thus you could well be the type who accepts thing for the way they are early on particularly in financial matters (2nd house).

With Jupiter's ruling over this domain, there could well be room for expansion. But there appears to be a certain ambivalence between the two giants; one is trying to expand (Jupiter's rulership), the other restricts (Saturn).

Posting your chart could help as it may show other aspects to Saturn Rx in 2nd Sagittarius.

Try not to worry too much/give into the fear of how much you will or need to make before a certain age. Everyone has limits and nobody if perfect. You will make that what nature wants you to make and no more.

Hope this helps.

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Thanks. You are correct about my seriousness in intellect. I've never been particularly super interested in formal studies, something which always bewildered my teachers because to them, the intellect was there, but I would always be serious about other things I found more important or, now that I think about it, "formal education" always seemed too mundane. I didn't want to learn how to pass an algebra exam or some standardized test, I wanted to learn about philosophies, cultures, politics, and hard to explain scientific stuff, but in a very broad sense.

I'll post my chart

Uranus' (science & technology/mathematics) presence in Sagittarius probably explains your affinity for science. The conjunction with Saturn is what is exacerbating the already present issue of Saturn's obstruction in regard to 2nd house matters, because Uranus is the nervous energy in us.

I've noticed a Saturn-Mercury opposition. I happen to have a square and I know it restricts my ability to communicate effectively with others around me. As we are looking at 2nd matters here, do you find you get a feeling like this from time to time?

I also read that Neptune (illusion/maya) in 2nd people should consult before investments/big financial decisions. I would strongly suggest the same for you, before taking a big step.

I've noticed a Saturn-Mercury opposition. I happen to have a square and I know it restricts my ability to communicate effectively with others around me. As we are looking at 2nd matters here, do you find you get a feeling like this from time to time?

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Yes.

Lol. I have that communication issue, but at the same time I feel like I need to express exactly what is on my mind and what is going on because I don't think I'm being understood. This is mainly only in speaking. In writing I am quite eloquent when I need to be, but when it comes to free flowing speaking, particularly in a monologue, my speech has a rather "Obama" effect: a lot of "uh, um, uh, ah", and plenty of pauses for thinking about my next words. I'm a musician as well, I find that this translates to playing. I'm not the greatest freestyler nor am I great at improvising, I'm most comfortable with preparations after several rehearsals and thinking through what I have to do before I do it.

I also read that Neptune (illusion/maya) in 2nd people should consult before investments/big financial decisions. I would strongly suggest the same for you, before taking a big step.

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Interesting you say "should". I always consult before making any major decisions.

Interesting you say "should". I always consult before making any major decisions.

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Lol I just assumed that you may manage your money decisions by yourself just like most people. But that's great that you do that. You shouldn't have anything to worry about then when it comes to fiscal matters then. One other thing I should have mentioned in my previous post, with Neptune I would suggest that you should try and ensure that you don't fall prey to products/services which are too tempting.

I have this, and it looks like i might be broke when i get older. Im steady losing money, lost my job, car, ive got tickets out, loans out and im threating an eviction. Pretty rough right now. But Ive learned to value whats really imprtant to me, which is time. Time is far more important than money and its how i spend my time that determines how i feel. Also Im very irresponsible with money and its the very reason im here now. But saturn rules my 4th house and thats exactly whos always coming to my rescue, my family or the family of my girlfriend.

Right now saturn and conjunct pluto, which rules the 2nd house for me. Its been tough i literally have nothing im losing everything all b/c of reckless and thought less behaviour.

m0ney*p0wer*re$pect said:

I have this, and it looks like i might be broke when i get older. Im steady losing money, lost my job, car, ive got tickets out, loans out and im threating an eviction. Pretty rough right now. But Ive learned to value whats really imprtant to me, which is time. Time is far more important than money and its how i spend my time that determines how i feel. Also Im very irresponsible with money and its the very reason im here now. But saturn rules my 4th house and thats exactly whos always coming to my rescue, my family or the family of my girlfriend.

Right now saturn and conjunct pluto, which rules the 2nd house for me. Its been tough i literally have nothing im losing everything all b/c of reckless and thought less behaviour.

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One of the things that worry me is that I will inherit my father's financial troubles. He also has a 2nd House Saturn, in Virgo. He is very independent though and could always provide, but it always took so much work, and I observe he is less "lucky" with money than most, even in his new business he created.

I noticed that when it comes to his possessions he is very "perfectionistic", or at least should be, because lately he's been "respecting" money by being a perfectionist in how it should be folded neatly and turn the proper way in his wallet, and meticulously counting each cent etc.

Lately, I have been coming into a little more money. Not a lot more. Actually, I haven't been making more, I just have been "having" more because I'm not being as irresponsible with it. I was surprised how my money just "expanded" but, it's still not enough.

Saturn rules my fourth house too. When I was living on my own my parents and even my YOUNGER sister had to bail me out all the time. Now I am living with them. I believe perhaps Saturn might be teaching me how to deal with money/possessions.

The_Saturnian said:

Lol I just assumed that you may manage your money decisions by yourself just like most people. But that's great that you do that. You shouldn't have anything to worry about then when it comes to fiscal matters then. One other thing I should have mentioned in my previous post, with Neptune I would suggest that you should try and ensure that you don't fall prey to products/services which are too tempting.

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Right. When it comes to most things I consult other people, might be my 7th house Sun, not sure. I am always attracting quick money schemes, and have always found them attractive, but perhaps it's my 8th House Mars or the importance of the 8th house and Scorpio in my chart that makes me intensely investigative before I decide to dive in. That being said, in my late teenage years I learnt my lesson when I entered a business venture with a friend, I ended up losing tons of money (which he still owes me).

Also back to the Mercury-Saturn thing, I tend to be very investigative of my communication abilities, and rather self assessing to the point of obsession. It literally caused me immense social anxiety when I was younger. This, I can say, is because my Mercury is in my 8th house (which rules fears), and is out of sect. So I've always noticed it, and I always try to analyze every conversation I have with other people, but I will never "learn" anything "useful", I've found that I'm better socially when I relax and just ignore my 8th House fear of my own communication issues with Merc-Sat.

This is essentially what I am trying to figure out about my Saturn condition.

Look at your chart...

It shows the condition of Saturn...

Conj. Uranus 6 degrees, both Rx....Uranus and Saturn are not friends.
Saturn comes first, followed by Uranus, who upsets things.
And although Neptune is not conjunct, he shares the habitation.

Saturn is opposed Mercury within degree, mutually applying, Dual signs.

Lord of Saturn, Jupiter, while ok in Aries (apt to be a bit over-optimistic and unconsidered in act) -- a fiery sign -- is cadent but supports the Mercury-Saturn opposition from the 6th (sextile and trine.) Mars disposes Jupiter from his fall in Cancer, and this affects the way Jupiter functions.

Saturn is in his own term, which strengthens him somewhat.

I wonder why the opposition of Pluto to Venus right across the horizon doesn't interest you.

Saturn is in his own term, which strengthens him somewhat.

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Could you expand on that?

Pluto opposite Venus does interest me, but I never thought of it as relevant to this question, I've only observed it in the intensity of relations with people in my relationships (usually for bad).

Planets can hold one of 5 Essential Dignities, in descending order of strength: Domicile, Exaltation, Triplicity, Term and Face. So that, being in his own term gives Saturn a minor strengthening in the face of retrogradation, exact and mutually applying opposition to Mercury, applying conjunction with Uranus [I would want to use the ephemeris to see the future motions of these two] and what is, in my opinion, a rather indifferntly conditioned but supposedly supportive dispositor in Jupiter.

The terms are rather arbitray divisions of signs into five segments. Each of the segments has a planetary lord or dispositor. For example, Sagittarius is divided thus: From 0 Sag 01 thru 8 Sag 00 is under the rule of Jupiter (who is also domicile ruler, and so very powerful if found there or ruling planets inhabiting that segment),from 8 Sag 01 thru 14 Sag 00, Venus, thru 19 Sag 00, Mercury, thru 25 Sag 00, Saturn, and thru to the end of the sign at 00 Capricorn 00, to Mars.

So you see that Saturn is in his own term, which is a minor essential dignty and strenthens a planet. He has some control of the ground on which he stands. However, he is still beholden to Jupiter, dispositor (domicile ruler) of Sagitarrius. If the power of domicile is given 5 for power, the term has a power of 2. These values are used to appraise the relative power among different planets in specific degrees of the horoscope, in order to determine the almuten -- or most powerful planet in that degree. The almuten is the dispositor of that degree, and any planet or point (such as the Ascendant) in it. There is, somewhere in this forum, a thread on "Disposition" that you may find helpful.

There are two types of Dignity: Essential and Accidental. The Essential dignities are based solely on sign position. The name essential explains their nature and meaning in natal astrology. and shows their role in interpretation. The essential digniitie -- along with their counterparts, the Essential Debilities: Detriment (also known as Exile), Fall -- the opposite of Exaltation (look up the word "fall" in a good dictionary), and then out of triplicity, out of term, out of face describe the essential nature or charater of the native.

JUPASC can gve you the Table of Dignities, which might be put on your harddrive and kept easily accessible for quick reference. Thus, with each horoscope you examine you can evaluate the strength of each of the planets in the chart in the degree where they stand and points they might rule. One of the keys to horoscope interpretation is to determine the identity of the most powerful planet in the horoscope. These essential dignities are one among several tools used to appraise power. Power is a double-edged sword. If a planet is in dignity, that normally strengthens the planet for good. But in some unusual cases the powerful planet may be otherwise conditioned toward evil, and the power may be turned in that direction. JUPASC can also point you toward a chart or table by an astrologer such as Lilly showing and assigning values the different sorts of dignities and debilities.

Accidental Dignity is concerned with the accidents of life and is not of the essential character shown by the signs. However, quite often a planet may be especially powerful and determined toward manifestation or culmnation at an early age so their effect is effectively essential. Th4e response to the manfestation of the planetary energies occurred early, is deep and beyond consciousness. One of the most common of the Accidental Dignities is Angularity. Allowances (orb) will vary somewhat from astrologer to astrologer, but I would say that a planet within 10 degrees before of 5 degrees after (counterclockwise) is strongly angular, andi is angular if contained withing the 1st, 4th, 7th or 10th houses.

A planet that holds no essential dignity (or debilty) in the degree of the zodiac where it is located is said to be Peregrine, or without essential dignity. The word peregrine indicates a wanderer, an outsider, a foreigner. Not to be trusted nor tempted and apt to make trouble. Hark, hark, the dogs do bark, the beggars are coming to town.

You don't have to say "expand" twice to me.....

Thanks very much for that information. Learnt something new.

I wonder why the opposition of Pluto to Venus right across the horizon doesn't interest you.

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Why should it, btw? (You can tell I'm a bit of a novice.)

Also back to the Mercury-Saturn thing, I tend to be very investigative of my communication abilities, and rather self assessing to the point of obsession. It literally caused me immense social anxiety when I was younger. This, I can say, is because my Mercury is in my 8th house (which rules fears), and is out of sect. So I've always noticed it, and I always try to analyze every conversation I have with other people, but I will never "learn" anything "useful", I've found that I'm better socially when I relax and just ignore my 8th House fear of my own communication issues with Merc-Sat.

This is essentially what I am trying to figure out about my Saturn condition.

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I know what you mean. I have a certain propensity of playing back conversation or playing an outcome of a conversation in my head too. I like to scrutinise every detail in conversation, and yet I too am socially anxious. I started a thread of my own about my fear of driving and I made mention that I had a tendency in teenage years of getting nervous when meeting up with my buddies and going up to London for the day for no apparent reason. I guess its the pesky Mercury-Saturn hard aspects that give rise to such issues. I feel supressed and am unable to speak of my nervousness.

We just discussed "Angular Planets" briefly. Both Pluto and Venus are strongly angular, Pluto within 5 degrees of the Ascendant. An Angular planet is always a powerful influence in the life. Pluto and Venus oppose each other (the hardest of the aspects) across the horizon, the line that defines the personial individual self as set against the vital world of relationship with the not-self, the other. The horoscope has just described a very critical conflict in the life. Here's where the rubber meets the road. In other words, to understand the personaliity and the life, study all about Pluto and Venus, come to understand their message. The life turns on this opposition simply because of its powerful angularity.

So, to study this opposition, we must learn the deep meanings of the two planets in open conflict. We learn all the different kinds of things, and of energies, that belong to Pluto -- what is his innate nature, what does he cause, what sorts of his very powerful characteristics might be shown given all the different things conditioning him (sign, house, Rx?, rules what, is ruled by whom (very important), aspects, motions of the planets and so on. Each of these things is descriptive of some facet of the personality/life and all brought together and unified (in the mind of the astrologer), create a very good picture of the situation.

Pluto is in his own sign of Scorpio, in Dignity by domicile, the most powrful of the essential dignities. He is the rising planet, giving him precedence in power over the descending Venus. She also is in Essential Dignity, in her own sign of Taurus. Thus we have two very powerful energies warring for dominance within the psyche and personality and also manifesting in the outer world of events.

They participate in the unusual planetary formation known as the mystic rectangle with Mars and Neptune. The rectangle occurs in Earth and Water signs, receptive/feminine signs. Keep in mind that each of these astrological descriptors has common sense, down-to-Earth meanings, and these meanngs should be understood in these terms before moving on the next descriptor. That way the mind builds fact upon fact to finally form a unified picture.

Would one hence regard me a Plutonian? Apologies if this seems like an overly simple question. I've been somewhat obsessing over the implication of Pluto in my chart, and it's relationship to Venus across the horizon (I didn't notice the implication of the horizon before).

Pluto plays a powerful role in the life.

Pluto is your ruling planet so yes it would have a great role to play. Furthermore, it is conjunct your ascendant, so the influence is amplified even more.

Another Gen Y here with a second house in Saturn.I know exactly where you're coming from,and money is a huge concern for me.However,I'm very careful with my money.I'm frugal to the extent that it bothers people around me.I rarely eat out at restaurants (once in a year?) and shop for clothing,and I'm always looking for cheap alternatives.I led a very comfortable life,and never had any financial problems in my family,but I was taught the importance of it,and to date I feel extremely guilty spending money on something I can't see myself getting a long term investment out of.

I have Saturn in Aquarius in the 2nd House.I'm ruled by Saturn (Capricorn Rising),and I have a sextile from the sun (a lot of my values have been taught to me by my father).I have Saturn squaring Pluto which is quite scary,but I'm not sure how to interpret that.My Ascendant which is ruled by Saturn however has a trine from Sun and Jupiter.

We have a lot in common! Besides having Saturn retrograde in the 2nd house (in my case in dominicil in Capricorn), my Sun is also in Gemini and in the 7th house, and my Mars is also in Cancer and in the 8th house opposing my Saturn. Ah, and my Pluto is also in Scorpio and in the 12th house.

Talking about my 2th house Saturn, I don't actually fear to die in poverty, probably because I have never wanted be rich more than normal people do (probably my Neptune closely conjucting my Saturn). I'm aware that money and other material resource are very difficult to obtain and I try to manage them the best way I can. I could be very stingy and think three thousand times before making a purchase. When I go shopping I like to visit all the shops around and see all that is available and compare not only prices, but qualities and types of products.

For me it's very important to spend my money smartly and in concrete things. What satisfies me is to spend the least money I can or spend a good amount of it in concrete and quality things, so I can sit and list where, why and in what I have spent my money.

How I deal with my 2th house Saturn? I have come to the conclusion that what is important is not to have all the things that you want, but to know what is really important. When you are clear about that (and you need a spiritual disposition to discern this, something so easily to obtain for an Scorpio Ascendant like you), you came to realize that the most important things in life are right in your hand and you don't have to work to obtain them, just to preserve them and be grateful for having them.

Another thing that make my 2th house Saturn bearable is my Neptune in almost perfect conjunction to it. In the last couple of months I came to realize how easy and pleasant is for me to share what I have with people in need and the people I love, even though I could be a very stingy person. Sometimes I think the only way I could have what I need is sharing what I already have with others.