TO U.P.
Well, I do have to thank you for bringing back to mind the Sun Venus conjunction this past weekend. It did cause me to get to the bottom of that question about whether there were two conjunctions in the 19th degree of Capricorn or if the table of conjunction was in error, or a mis-print had been the reason why. I am a bit compelled to have to think if whether the 19th of Capricorn was being emphasized over the other four degrees of the Zodiac that comprise the pentagram that makes a symmetrical "Star" to my natal M.C.
Phoenix Venus came up with the idea that ones M.C. Pentagram should be read in the order of every other one, just as the pentagram is drawn by those that engage in such practices, while Dane Rudhyar in his book on the Sabian Symbols, [i.e. "An Astrological Mandala" In Part Three, Chapter Three, "The Cross and the Star"] as He does walk the reader through the five degrees that He chose to use as an example [the same five degrees that are that of my natal M.C. pentagram] beginning with Aries 01° and through the following four in the "Traditional" order of procession, i.e. counter clockwise.
... AND IT IS HERE AT THIS POINT I MUST STOP, AND NOT GO ON WITH WHAT i HAD INTENDED TO WRITE...
[Late note: Hours after I wrote the following I read it to myself and realized I may have made it all the more difficult to understand as to those potions of the following that relate particularly as to what Dane wrote himself. I'm trying to give the explanation as to how I finally was able to see that the other process of transformation, i.e that of spiritual evolution, begins not with Aries 01° but rather with Virgo 30°, but now I seem to think I didn't do a very good job of it. You all don't need to know why I struggled with my own understanding or how I finally arrived to the answers I sought, all you really need to know is how to use it and that it works. The process of where to begin to start with the pentagram then reasonably seems to begin with that which comes at, or immediately after that of, Virgo 30°, which in my case is the 25th degree of Leo. As to whether one then proceeds through the pentagram one after another, or by he method P.V. describes, seems to work either way in regards to my own M.C. pentagram, although Dane, in his example, is doing so one after another. But there is a paragraph or two, in His book, that I didn't include in the following that states that the manner of interpreting each symbol does need to be understood and in relevance to every natal chart in a different way so as to where it then does best seem to be fitting to so be interpreted as. In that paragraph, or two, Dane does admit that his interpretations for these symbols don't encompass every possible nuance that might possibly arise. So if the following does get to be more confusing than of assistance, just skip over as much as you might care to, and read what are the excerpts from his book [in the colored text], and then read that third chapter in Part Three of his book for yourself. I thought of deleting most of it, but then I'd end up trying to write it again. I will make another post down below with the excerpt, I would have liked to have included in this post, as to what He wrote about each symbol needing to be put in relevance to the uniqueness of every different natal chart. Thanks for your patience and understanding. ptv.]
FIRST OF ALL, I NOW OWE YOU THANKS TO THE NTH POWER AS I HAD TO STOP ANYWAYS, BEFORE I CONTINUED ON, AND RE-READ A PORTION OF THAT CHAPTER IN ORDER TO BE ASSURED OF WHAT I WAS ABOUT TO WRITE, AND AS TO A BIT THAT I ALREADY HAD WRITTEN ABOVE, r.e. "... IN THE TRADITIONAL ORDER OF PROCESSION...", AS I HAD BEGUN THINKING AGAIN ABOUT THIS MATTER, WHICH I HAD SHELVED SOME YEARS AGO AS AN ENIGMA YET TO BE FIGURED OUT, OR AT LEAST UNDERSTOOD BY MYSELF. OVER THE WEEKEND I CAME TO A CONCLUSION THAT P.V. WAS CORRECT AND QUITE PERCEPTIVE AS TO WHAT SHE WROTE IN HER THREAD ABOUT THIS "STAR", BUT FOR THE SPIRITUALLY EVOLUTIONARY DIRECTION PROCEEDING FROM THE ASC., WHICH TAKES ITS PATH IN THE OTHER DIRECTION, i.e. CLOCKWISE....WHICH IS WHY I DO DESIGNATE THE .M.C. AS BEING THE "HOW" OF ONES NATAL CHART AXIS, AS OPPOSED TO WHAT RUDHYAR HAD SINGULARLY HAD USED AS THE MEANS TO THIS PROCESS, THAT IS IN DESIGNATING THE I.C. AS SUCH [AS THE "HOW" MUST FOLLOW THAT OF "WHO" AS TO HOW TO GET TO THE POINT AT THE DESC. FOR THE PURPOSE OF TRANSFORMATION INTO THE "WHERE-TO", OR AS I SOMETIMES PREFER TO CALL IT AS THE "WHOM-TO", AND THAT THE "WHY" OF THE MATTER CAN ONLY BE AT THE END OF THOSE FOUR POINTS IN THE PROCESS.] AND THUS CAME TO ANOTHER CONCLUSION THAT WHEN FOLLOWING THESE SYMBOLIC FIVE STEPS ONE SHOULD SKIP A POINT TO THE NEXT, BUT FOR THE M.C. STAR IT SHOULD BE IN A CLOCKWISE MANNER AND AS TO THE I.C. [MATTERS OF THE MUNDANE] IT SHOULD BE IN THE "TRADITIONAL", i.e. COUNTER CLOCKWISE DIRECTION. YET, AS I DID CORRECTLY RECALL THAT RUDHYAR DID BEGIN WITH ARIES 01° IN THAT CHAPTER'S DEMONSTRATION, I WAS STILL PERPLEXED AS TO WHY HE NEVER STATED IN THAT DEMONSTRATION AS TO WHETHER HE WAS USING ARIES 01° AS THE POINT AT THE I.C. [IN ADDITION TO THE FACT THAT IN THE DESCRIPTIONS AND INTERPRETATIONS HE GIVES FOR ALL OF THE 360 SYMBOLS HE IS ALWAYS INFERRING THAT EACH SYMBOL IS THE PROGRESSION OF THE FORMER IN THAT "TRADITIONAL" DIRECTION, i.e. FROM ARIES 01° TO PISCES 30°. BACK SOME 15 YEARS AGO WHEN I FIRST BEGAN TO SUSPECT THAT RUDHYAR HAD BEEN IMPLYING THAT THERE DOES EXIST ANOTHER DIRECTIONAL PATH TO A "HIGHER TRANSFORMATION", AS FOR HIS REMARK GIVEN IN MORE THAN AT LEAST ONE PUBLISHED WORK, THAT, "THE PATH OF TRUE DISCIPLESHIP BEGINS IN VIRGO". WHAT I WAS LEFT TO CONCLUDE, AT THE TIME OF WRITING MY BOOK, IS THAT AS IT TURNED OUT THAT LIBRA 01° WAS THE ASC., AND NOT ARIES 01°, THAT THIS OTHER PATH THEN BEGAN AT LIBRA 01°, AS I DID WRITE IN THE BOOK, AND CULMINATED AT VIRGO 30°, AS FOR THE REASON THAT I HADN'T YET CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD WHAT DANE ACTUALLY WROTE BECAUSE I FOCUSED ON HIS KEYWORDS, THAT ARE, "CONQUEST OF ILLUSION" AND I HADN'T FRAMED IT IN CONTEXT TO THE REST OF HIS SUMMATION AND THAT, IN TURN, TO HIS REPEATED STATEMENT THAT "THE TRUE PATH OF DISCIPLESHIP BEGINS IN VIRGO".
FOR SOME TIME, AT FIRST, I THOUGHT THAT STEP BEGAN WITH VIRGO 22°, BECAUSE HE WROTE THAT THE SYMBOLISM, FOR WHICH, BEING ABOUT THE CERTIFICATION OF ONES' WORTHINESS, OR SO AS TO HOW I HAD INTERPRETED HIS WORDS TO MEAN. IT FINALLY DAWNED ON ME ONE DAY THAT LIBRA 01° HAS TO BE THE CULMINATING STEP, THE FINAL STEP IN THE TRANSFORMATIONAL PROCESS THOUGH THE SYMBOL FOR VIRGO 30°, WROTE DANE, [IBID.] "This is the culminating step, the decision that results from a myriad of small choices. Still a shadow of hesitation can remain. Attention may be distracted from the Now by a voice from the past, glamorizing some old memory. The outer doors of perception and thought must be closed, so the soul can complete its CONQUEST OF ILLUSION." AND BECAUSE IT MADE NO SENSE TO ME THAT THIS "PATH" WOULD CONSIST OF JUST 31 STEPS BEGINNING WITH VIRGO 01°, AS MUCH AS FOR IT THEN BEING SO SHORT OF A PATH, AS ALSO TO WHAT THE SYMBOLISM FOR THE FIRST DEGREE OF VIRGO DOES REPRESENT, AND THOUGH I DID FAVOR THAT SYMBOLISM OF THE 22ND DEGREE OF VIRGO, IT MADE EVEN LESS SENSE, IN AS MUCH AS, FOR THE REASON THAT THE PATH WOULD THEN BE SO VERY MUCH THE SHORTER, AS FOR THE REASON THAT I KNEW, BUT JUST WOULDN'T ADMIT IT TO MYSELF YET, THAT I WAS EXTRAPOLATING HIS INTERPRETATION TO MEAN SOMETHING MORE THAN HE DID ACTUALLY WRITE, BELIEVING THAT HE WAS BEING DELIBERATELY OCCLUDING. IT FINALLY OCCURRED TO ME THAT VIRGO 30° DOES SYMBOLICALLY REPRESENT THE CULMINATING STEP, BUT THE CULMINATING STEP OF THE MUNDANE AFTER WHICH ONE SEES, AND THEN TAKES, "THE TRUE PATH OF DISCIPLESHIP" WHICH IS IN THE OTHER DIRECTION. AS THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS TO SPIRITUAL PERFECTION AND THE ABSOLUTION OF ONES KARMIC DEBTS, THE PATH CAN NEVER BE A SHORT ONE {WITH EXCEPTION TO THAT WHICH MIGHT BE PROVIDED BY ONES "SATGURU" ...AND YESHU'A/JESUS MAY IN FACT HAVE OFFERED IT TO ALL THAT CHOOSE HIM TO BE THEIR "SATGURU", OR ARCHETYPE, DEPENDING ON THE NOMENCLATURE ONE PREFERS TO USE, WHETHER IT BE ALL OF ONES KARMIC DEBTS OR A PORTION OF WHICH...AS THAT IS A QUESTION I WOULDN'T DARE TO ATTEMPT TO GIVE AN ANSWER TO, ALTHOUGH I AM VERY SET IN MY OPINION ON THE MATTER GIVEN A NEAR LIFETIME OF STUDY, AND EXPERIENCES, OF BEING BOTH A CHRISTIAN OF THE GNOSTIC TYPE AND A PRACTITIONER OF YOGA BY A RARE PATH OF THE SANATAN DHARM.}
SO THEN, GETTING BACK TO WHAT I WROTE ABOVE ABOUT HAVING TO RE-READ SOME OF THE TEXT IN PART THREE, CHAPTER THREE, TO SEE IF ANY REFERENCE WAS MADE TO WHETHER DANE DID DESIGNATE ARIES 01° AS THE DEGREE TO BEGIN WITH AS... FOR THE PURPOSE OF HIS DEMONSTRATION... BEING THE M.C., OR IF THAT HE WAS BEGINNING WITH THAT SIGN AND DEGREE AS FOR IT BEING CONSIDERED THE FIRST OF THE 360 SYMBOLS IN A TRANSFORMATIONAL PROCESS OF AS MANY STEPS... OR IF I SHOULD HAPPEN TO STILL NOT YET BE ABLE TO FIND ANY SUCH INDICATIONS... MIGHT THERE AT LEAST BE SOME CLUE AS TO WHICH OF THE FIVE POINTS OF ANY PERFECTLY SYMMETRICAL PENTAGON THAT CAN BE FOUND IN THE ZODIAC [AND OF WHICH THERE ARE BUT 72, BUT EACH HAVING FIVE POINTS FROM WHICH TO POSSIBLY PROCEED FROM?] IT HAD SEEMED TO ME THAT AS THE M.C. IS THE ONLY ONE OF THE FIVE TO FALL ON A CHART AXIS POINT, BUT FOR THE RARE EXCEPTIONS OF THOSE NATAL CHARTS THAT HAVE THE ASC.'S, OR DESC.'S, BEING AT A 72° ASPECT TO THE M.C. , ALONG WITH THE PERPLEXING POSSIBILITY THAT AS DANE HAD BEEN USING ARIES 01° FOR THE ASC. IN HIS EXPLANATION THAT THERE IS ALSO THEN ANOTHER PAIR OF PENTAGRAMS THAT POINT NEITHER UP NOR DOWN BUT TO EITHER SIDE... THIS UNANSWERED QUESTION I HAD WAS MADDENING, AND AFTER ALL THESE YEARS, IT HAD BECOME EXCEEDINGLY SO.
BUT........AND THIS IS A HUGE, BUT, FOLKS... JUST NOW HAVING RE-READ THE PASSAGES AGAIN, I FINALLY GOT IT... {as I often tell people, that if it's about math and physical sciences, physics, mechanics, spatial relationships, I'm in the top percent of mental capabilities, but when it comes to reading comprehension and the use of language as to speaking and writing... I barely rate as average, and that being a big part of the reason why I never finished college as there was just too much reading and writing for me to handle...and despite my being a fine arts major at that!] DANE DOES GIVE US INDICATION AS TO THE ANSWERS TO ALL THOSE QUESTIONS.
AS HE WROTE AT ONE POINT IN THAT CHAPTER... [IBID.]
"The five-pointed star is the symbol of Mind as a mode of universal activity. The star can either point upward or downward. It is the symbol of Man; and a man can evolve his consciousness in the direction of Light (i.e. Spirit), or follow the path of "devolution" and be drawn eventually to the realm of unconscious absorption in undifferentiated matter, the "humus" which will feed the growth of seeds in a future cycle."
DANE THEN GOES AND LISTS THE FIVE DEGREES HE USED FOR HIS DEMONSTRATIVE EXAMPLES, I.E ARIES 01°, GEMINI 13°, LEO 25°, SCORPIO 07°, AND CAPRICORN 19°... THEN FURTHER ON HE STATES [ibid.]
"We should note that the second symbol (Gemini 13°) and the fifth (Capricorn 19°) refer to what one might call social roles. The first of these means that once the individual mind has emerged from the collective mentality of its culture it has to prove itself by demonstrating its capacity to move and inspire others. It does this, however, in terms of the ego (as a "virtuoso," often dramatizing himself on a public stage). Moreover, the cultural material he uses (i.e. the compositions he performs) is not his own. The performance often implies or suggests an act of ego-glorification."
THUS DANE HAS POSSIBLY IDENTIFIED TWO OF THOSE DEGREES AS BEING MORE TO THE MUNDANE AFFAIRS OF LIFE.
BUT, ALSO TO GET TO MY POINT AS TO THERE BEING TWO WAYS TO PROCEED THROUGH THESE SYMBOLS AS TO A TYPE OF TRANSFORMATION HE EARLIER STATES...[ibid]
"The equinoctial phases of the year cycle represent the principle of consciousness because the two interacting energies (Yang-Yin, or Day-force and Night-force) being of equal strength, the power principle is neutralized. At the solstices of summer and winter one force, being almost totally dominant, normally makes a great show of power. The two primary types of power are (1) the power to be effectively what one is as a particular form of existence, and (2) the power to use what one is within a "greater whole" in which one is called upon to function. Thus, Cancer 1° (sailors raising a new flag) stabilizes with fully available Yang power and determination the form of life and consciousness that emerged at Aries 1°. On the other hand, Capricorn 1° pictures an "Indian chief" able to use social processes to make concrete and acceptable to his community the vision he had of his essential being. At this Capricorn stage we see public and official power in action."
...AND IF YOU HAVE READ THAT CAREFULLY, THEN YOU HAVE REALIZED THAT HE HAS STATED IN THAT INSTANCE THEN THE SYMBOLISM FOR CANCER 01° IS TO SPIRITUAL EVOLUTION AND THAT OF CAPRICORN 01° IS THAT OF THE MUNDANE.
...AND FURTHER AS TO MY OWN PREDICAMENT, PERTAINING TO CAPRICORN 19°...
"The fifth and last principle is that of utterly dedicated and efficient service — the service of one's spiritual family, group or guru. The ego-dramatics of the "virtuoso performance" are left behind. The ego has been cleansed by harsh trials and tempered by the fire and heat of the desert sun; it is now filled with the assimilated contents of the psychic and biospheric depths. It has begun to vibrate to the 5 (i.e. a five-year-old child). The individual may experience the Star of Victory within his heart."
NOW... AND... OH YES... SO PARTICULARLY, RIGHT FREAKIN', NOW AT THIS TIME, AS BEING SO APPROPRIATE WITH VENUS HAVING JUST CONJUNCTED THE SUN IN THAT VERY DEGREE... IT HAS ALL BEEN MADE SO VERY CLEAR TO ME WHAT DANE IS TRYING TO GET ACROSS TO US ALL. [AND IF I HAD AN ALTAR TO DANE I WOULD BE ON MY KNEES THIS VERY MOMENT OFFERING SUPPLICATION TO HIM IN DEEP REVERENCE TO THE WISDOM HE HAD AND DID SHARE...]
AS HE ALSO CONTINUED ON IN THIS CHAPTER OF HIS BOOK, AND ALSO BRINGS US BACK TO WHAT THE QUINTILE ASPECT DOES PRODUCE AS ITS EFFECT, i.e., THAT ASPECT OF "GENIUS", AND THEN ALSO ANSWERS AS TO WHERE AND FOR WHAT REASON FOR CONSIDERATION AS TO WHICH OF THE FIVE TO BEGIN WITH AS TO THE UNDERSTANDING OF HOW TO INTERPRET ONES OWN PENTAGRAM FOUND IN THEIR NATAL CHART...[ibid.]
"It is popular today to speak of "creativity" and of having a creative mind. What this means is the capacity to give form to raw and undifferentiated materials or to transform what has already been given a particular shape or structure. It is this capacity that operates in terms of five different types of activity. Above, by relating the symbols of a five-pointed star pattern beginning with the first degree of Aries, I presented the basic prototype of all such processes — just as the relationship between the four cardinal points of the zodiac establishes a prototype theoretically applicable to all similar quaternary relationships between zodiacal degrees and their symbols. The Cross and the Star are geometric archetypes that can give a general meaning to all existential processes operating according to the Vibrations 4 and 5. Any degree of the zodiac can thus become the head of a Cross, or the upper point of a Star — and, I might add, of the Star's negative reversed form."
SO, AGAIN U.P., THANK YOU FOR BOTH INITIATING THIS THREAD AND POSING YOUR QUESTION, AND FOR YOUR TIME AND EFFORT IN ANSWERING THOSE QUESTIONS I HAD FOR YOU.
I WISH THAT I COULD HAD COPIED AND PASTED THE ENTIRE CHAPTER FROM WHICH I DID TAKE MANY EXCERPTS FROM, AND HAVE TO HOPE THAT THE MODS DO ALLOW ME LENIENCY AS TO HOW MUCH I DID, AS IT IS SUCH A DIFFICULT UNDERSTANDING TO CONVEY AND I BEING SUCH A POOR WORDSMITH AT THAT.!?!
I DO IMPLORE ALL THAT ARE INTERESTED IN UTILIZING SABIAN SYMBOLS IN NATAL ASTROLOGICAL INTERPRETATION AND UNDERSTANDING TO READ, AND RE-READ AS MANY TIMES AS MIGHT BE NECESSARY, THE ENTIRE 3RD CHAPTER OF PART THREE OF DANE'S BOOK, TO FULLY UNDERSTAND THIS PROCEDURE.
THANK YOU.
ptv