Astrologers' Community Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

 Progressions For discussions on secondary progressions in predictive astrology.

#1
03-19-2016, 05:43 PM
 FROG Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 175
Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

Obviously there is a difference in the interpretation of the Solar Return and Progressed Chart.
But I need help making these two distinct.

So here's my question.

Let's suppose
One Aspect
Mars Square Sun

A1:How would you interpret that when found in the Solar Return?

A2:And how would you interpret that when found in the Progressed Chart on the same birthday?

A3:And now please explain what causes the difference.

-----------
Second round of questions

Same Solar Return chart with outer ring of Natal Chart.
Vs Progressed Chart and outer Current Transits on birthday or day after (which is approximately the Solar Return)

Same aspect.
Sun Square Mars, between inner/outer ring, A to B, B to A, say which ring.

B1:
B1: How would you interpret that when found in the Natal to Solar Return Biwheel?

B2: And how would you interpret that when found in the Transits to Progressed BiWheel?

B3: And now please explain what causes the difference.
========
Any takers on these questions?

#2
03-19-2016, 07:00 PM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 50,986
Re: Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

Quote:
 Originally Posted by FROG Obviously there is a difference in the interpretation of the Solar Return and Progressed Chart. But I need help making these two distinct.
SOLAR RETURN and PROGRESSED are both read WITH the NATAL
neither SOLAR RETURN nor PROGRESSED are stand alone charts

for example here's a quote from Starlinks article on our EDUCATION BOARD
HOW TO INTERPRET A SOLAR RETURN CHART

QUOTE

'....A Solar Return chart should always be looked at in connection with your natal chart ,
because we want to see what our natal planets are doing this year
and looking at their positions in the SR chart is one way doing that.

Note:

You can also view the Solar Return as a chart on its own,
but it wont tell you as much as when you compare with the natal chart
.......'

Quote:
 Originally Posted by FROG So here's my question. Let's suppose One Aspect Mars Square Sun A1:How would you interpret that when found in the Solar Return? A2:And how would you interpret that when found in the Progressed Chart on the same birthday? A3:And now please explain what causes the difference.

Mars Square Sun varies, dependent on the SIGN location of Mars and Saturn

Quote:
 Originally Posted by FROG ----------- Second round of questions Same Solar Return chart with outer ring of Natal Chart. Vs Progressed Chart and outer Current Transits on birthday or day after (which is approximately the Solar Return) Same aspect. Sun Square Mars, between inner/outer ring, A to B, B to A, say which ring. B1: B1: How would you interpret that when found in the Natal to Solar Return Biwheel? B2: And how would you interpret that when found in the Transits to Progressed BiWheel? B3: And now please explain what causes the difference. ======== Any takers on these questions? Thank you very very much in advance for replying.
These aspects are all dependent for their delineation on their SIGN placements
as well as aspects in the individual natal chart being studied
and in order to answer these questions
would be useful to have such a chart to view
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#3
03-19-2016, 10:53 PM
 FROG Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 175
Thank you

I realize that these charts are used in biwheels for better results.

But just for simplicity, I am trying to sift out some ambiguity.

Both a solar return and a Secondary Progression are used for looking at the year ahead. But basic difference in interpretation between all solar returns and Secondary Progressions done on the same birthday, in the same town is _________________? I am looking for that answer. Except I don't want any description of how they are calculated or determined.

I have heard and read in courses and books that both represent similar material. No source says this for both. Combine sources and they do.

So I am trying to isolate the core difference.

If you need to think of each in a biwheel, to answer this, then do so.

Here's what I think the basic difference is between the Solar Return and the Secondary Progression for same time and place:

1. The Secondary Progression represents the phase of psychological development and challenges to it for the year

Whereas

2. The Solar Return presents the current conditions of the year are for the native, regardless of the inner developments.

Stated over simply --
The Solar Return addresses the outer conditions
The Secondary Progression represents the inner conditions

The SR represents the way current events of the year impact the native's life

The Secondary Progression represents the changes within oneself in reaction to the experience of the years gone by.

I could continue on how this relates in the biwheels, but to keep things simple I will pause here.
Obviously neither chart does a good job of representing the native on its own. And congruity of the character needs to be maintained among the charts.

But have I identified the difference between the two charts?

Example
Sun square Mars
1. Secondary Progression: the sense of self is at odds with one's ambition. Advice: use the conflict as catalyst for change
2'. Solar Return: this person is challenged to stand up for his/her self due to events of the year.

I purposely omitted mentioning house and sign, in order to address the core difference no matter what house and sign.

Am I close or far wrong?

Last edited by FROG; 03-20-2016 at 02:18 AM.
#4
03-20-2016, 01:54 AM
 Bjorkstrand Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 437
Re: Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

progressed charts don't exist

jim
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#5
03-20-2016, 02:19 AM
 FROG Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 175
Re: Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

Okay. Secondary Progression has been substituted for Progressed Chart.
#6
03-20-2016, 02:38 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 50,986
Re: Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

Quote:
 Originally Posted by FROG Thank you I realize that these charts are used in biwheels for better results. But just for simplicity, I am trying to sift out some ambiguity. Both a solar return and a Secondary Progression are used for looking at the year ahead. But basic difference in interpretation between all solar returns and Secondary Progressions done on the same birthday, in the same town is _________________? I am looking for that answer. Except I don't want any description of how they are calculated or determined. I have heard and read in courses and books that both represent similar material. No source says this for both. Combine sources and they do. So I am trying to isolate the core difference. If you need to think of each in a biwheel, to answer this, then do so. Here's what I think the basic difference is between the Solar Return and the Secondary Progression for same time and place: 1. The Secondary Progression represents the phase of psychological development and challenges to it for the year Whereas 2. The Solar Return presents the current conditions of the year are for the native, regardless of the inner developments. Stated over simply -- The Solar Return addresses the outer conditions The Secondary Progression represents the inner conditions The SR represents the way current events of the year impact the native's life The Secondary Progression represents the changes within oneself in reaction to the experience of the years gone by. I could continue on how this relates in the biwheels, but to keep things simple I will pause here. Obviously neither chart does a good job of representing the native on its own. And congruity of the character needs to be maintained among the charts. But have I identified the difference between the two charts? Example Sun square Mars 1. Secondary Progression: the sense of self is at odds with one's ambition. Advice: use the conflict as catalyst for change 2'. Solar Return: this person is challenged to stand up for his/her self due to events of the year. I purposely omitted mentioning house and sign, in order to address the core difference no matter what house and sign. Am I close or far wrong?
SIGN and HOUSE provide information that cannot be omitted
Unless one is an afficianado of the Cookbook Recipe One-Size-Fits-All School of unreliable generalised astrology
__________________
#7
03-20-2016, 03:26 AM
 FROG Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 175
Re: Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

But what if you are trying to teach the basics?

What is the basic difference in what the clsecondary progression indicates as compared to the solar return? Without describng the calculation, what is the difference in meaning?

I am afar advanced from any cookbook methods, use or study.

Let's drop the question of comparing the aspect in one chart to another.

How about taking the same wheel, houses, planets, points, signs,
Now if it is a secondary progression, it should have a different meaning than if it were a solar return. Of course it is not possible that secondary progression and solar teturn could ever match for one natal chart.

But wouldn't you consider the elements in each in a different way?
#8
03-20-2016, 03:39 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 50,986
Re: Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

Quote:
 Originally Posted by FROG But what if you are trying to teach the basics? What is the basic difference in what the clsecondary progression indicates as compared to the solar return? Without describng the calculation, what is the difference in meaning? I am afar advanced from any cookbook methods, use or study. Let's drop the question of comparing the aspect in one chart to another. How about taking the same wheel, houses, planets, points, signs, Now if it is a secondary progression, it should have a different meaning than if it were a solar return. Of course it is not possible that secondary progression and solar teturn could ever match for one natal chart. But wouldn't you consider the elements in each in a different way?
secondary progression AND solar return BOTH provide information that is connected directly to the NATAL
__________________
#9
03-20-2016, 04:02 AM
 duenderoja Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: United States Posts: 1,138
Re: Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

To be honest, I have never figured out the purpose of secondary progressions. I have also never figured out how to read them – the best I can do is to study the moon and sign. So to me, they are useless.

But solar returns on the other hand are invaluable to me. With them, I can see into the future pretty reliably.
#10
03-20-2016, 04:08 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 50,986
Re: Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

Quote:
 Originally Posted by duenderoja To be honest, I have never figured out the purpose of secondary progressions. I have also never figured out how to read them – the best I can do is to study the moon and sign. So to me, they are useless. But solar returns on the other hand are invaluable to me. With them, I can see into the future pretty reliably.

LOOKING AT PROGRESSIONS by BobZemco
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...562#post223562
Quote:
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#11
03-20-2016, 04:08 AM
 Rawiri Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: No home base. Posts: 639
Re: Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

Both solar returns and progressions (and various other methods) are simply timing methods, to discover WHEN something will occur that was previously identified in the natal chart.

They both show the timing of external events occurring, as well as internal - because there is no difference. A sincere change in the consciousness will bring about an external change. They may show separate events, not shown or at least not readily seen in the other method of timing. But ideally, they will confirm the event for each other. As you note, normally they would not confirm in the same way, but there are numerous ways some event can be signified.

For example, a few years ago I "flew" off a cliff and broke my back. That year, I had a primary direction of Saturn to my ascendant. This indicates some kind of harm to the physical body, and Saturn himself can signify gravity, falling etc. This identifies Saturn as important that year. In the solar return, Saturn was also found to be important, being the Lord of the Year, exalted and in the 10th House. Both these represent being "up high" quite clearly and Saturn often will cause a "rise" and then sudden fall in that position (typically career rise, but as Lord of the Year and also previously confirmed focus on physical body, that is where one would look). I was also in a Saturn sub-period in Vimshottari dasha, which had certain similar significations possible. On the exact day I broke my back, my progressed moon became exactly conjunct my 12th house cusp (Campanus). There were numerous other things showing in other timing methods too.

They showed the same theme, or same event, but in a different manner. This is typical of important events. They will show up in different timing methods but perhaps in a slightly different form. Ideally you should look for such confluence in timing methods before making a prediction.
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#12
03-20-2016, 08:35 AM
 FROG Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 175
Re: Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

Oh, thank you very much for all ths examples. This helps qute a bit.
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#13
03-20-2016, 09:14 AM
 FROG Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 175
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Rawiri Both solar returns and progressions (and various other methods) are simply timing methods, to discover WHEN something will occur that was previously identified in the natal chart. They both show the timing of external events occurring, as well as internal - because there is no difference. A sincere change in the consciousness will bring about an external change. They may show separate events, not shown or at least not readily seen in the other method of timing. But ideally, they will confirm the event for each other. As you note, normally they would not confirm in the same way, but there are numerous ways some event can be signified. For example, a few years ago I "flew" off a cliff and broke my back. That year, I had a primary direction of Saturn to my ascendant. This indicates some kind of harm to the physical body, and Saturn himself can signify gravity, falling etc. This identifies Saturn as important that year. In the solar return, Saturn was also found to be important, being the Lord of the Year, exalted and in the 10th House. Both these represent being "up high" quite clearly and Saturn often will cause a "rise" and then sudden fall in that position (typically career rise, but as Lord of the Year and also previously confirmed focus on physical body, that is where one would look). I was also in a Saturn sub-period in Vimshottari dasha, which had certain similar significations possible. On the exact day I broke my back, my progressed moon became exactly conjunct my 12th house cusp (Campanus). There were numerous other things showing in other timing methods too. They showed the same theme, or same event, but in a different manner. This is typical of important events. They will show up in different timing methods but perhaps in a slightly different form. Ideally you should look for such confluence in timing methods before making a prediction.
Thank you for replying and offering to help. I used hand calculate charts decades ago and wore down the pages of the ephemeris. Even back then I made life span plots on pencil can holders as gifts. To help with calculations I wrote short progams in basic and fortan. Later I collected data and obsevations in spreadsheets. Now I can't count how many different computer programs I have used since then. I saved u and bought Solar Fire eventually. I made a series of graph plots of progressions to natal over life span with house cusps or sign changes highlighted so I can capture them all quickly. What a luxury after all these years! I can run these on 360 or 90 or 45 or whatever modulus for a quck scan on certain groups o f aspects, time frames, collection of points etc

I thought maybe I should share my experience level a little, to help clarfy my questions.
I am still a student, not a professional astologer I have worked in other fields to support myself.

I appreciate having the option to pose thse kinds of questions here on the forum.
This can really help shake out the kinks in my thinking.

Thank you very much for responding and trying to help
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#14
03-20-2016, 12:52 PM
 duenderoja Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: United States Posts: 1,138
Re: Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

Thank you Jupiter !
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#15
10-25-2017, 11:26 AM
 davidk Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 30
Re: Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

The Solar Return Chart is just for one year only and as such is just a memory after that year has passed. The Progressed Chart is an ongoing unfolding of the Birth Chart. For Secondary Progressions one day after your birth equates to your progressed chart one year later.

One could say the Solar Return is a snapshot of the year to come while the Progressed Chart is a moving chart which changes slightly , if not very much each day. As such the aspects of a progressed chart are moving aspects , possibly getting closer or further away over time. The Solar Return Chart being a snapshot does not move. This gives a different feel to the aspects in a Progressed Chart to a Solar Return Chart.

Both charts can be overlayed onto your birth chart for aspects to your natal planets.

Thanks

David

www.thebirthchart.com

Progressed Chart - http://www.thebirthchart.com/progres...report_tbc.php

Solar Return Chart - http://www.thebirthchart.com/Astrolo...ort?status=sre
#16
10-25-2017, 11:54 AM
 JUPITERASC Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 50,986
Re: Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

Quote:
 Originally Posted by davidk The Solar Return Chart is just for one year only and as such is just a memory after that year has passed. The Progressed Chart is an ongoing unfolding of the Birth Chart. For Secondary Progressions one day after your birth equates to your progressed chart one year later. One could say the Solar Return is a snapshot of the year to come while the Progressed Chart is a moving chart which changes slightly , if not very much each day. As such the aspects of a progressed chart are moving aspects , possibly getting closer or further away over time. The Solar Return Chart being a snapshot does not move. This gives a different feel to the aspects in a Progressed Chart to a Solar Return Chart. Both charts can be overlayed onto your birth chart for aspects to your natal planets. Thanks David www.thebirthchart.com Progressed Chart - http://www.thebirthchart.com/progres...report_tbc.php Solar Return Chart - http://www.thebirthchart.com/Astrolo...ort?status=sre
Since BOTH progressed AND Solar Return charts are based on natal chart
and cannot be calculated without a natal chart to base them on
then
neither is reliably delineated as a "stand-alone" chart
BOTH require delineation with the natal promise of the natal chart kept in mind
__________________
#17
10-25-2017, 03:32 PM
 davidk Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 30
Re: Solar Return vs Progressed Chart

Yes agreed the Natal Chart has to be taken into account. It is the Parent of both these charts.

www.thebirthchart.com

Progressed Chart - http://www.thebirthchart.com/progres...report_tbc.php

Solar Return Chart - http://www.thebirthchart.com/Astrolo...ort?status=sre

 Tags "progressed chart", "solar return", chart, comparison, progressed, progression, return, solar

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