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  #1  
Unread 03-19-2008, 01:26 PM
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Long term projections using horary

Hello there.
Often I am asked to provide long term projections based on horary charts- for example, the old *Will we stay/get (whatever)together for the long term*-Marriage questions for example are based on this concept.Also questions such as *will I ever have children/get married/be rich etc etc etc ...I baulk at those questions, because lets face it, forever is a long time (!)...and I have trouble *predicting* immediate/short term events!

I have been asking myself *How do I know how long this chart will be valid for?* It's come up on the forum lately, with some saying a chart is valid for 3 months, some saying six months, a year etc....a range of opinions have been expressed...I've been wondering on what basis have these figures been arrived at? The three month idea makes sense because seasons last 3 months and I can see a natural correlation there....

It has just occurred to me that the logical time frame astrologically would be *the chart is valid until the significators change*.So for a long term forecast one would have to look at pairs of significators as they rotate on the wheel.
Let me give you an example:

As I look at a horary cast for tonight, right now...H1 and H7 are ruled by mars and venus respectively, so relationship or questions involving partners/enemies or *other* revolve around what mars and venus are doing (separating from a trine at the moment actually)......
The ascendant sign is scorpio-at 23.44. In roughly *7* somethings the sign of sagittarius will be rising- sag's planetary partner being Gemini-Mercury.
If you look at what jupiter and mercury are going to be doing to one another, you see they are applying to a sextile.So you could possibly advise the querent that *things will improve in terms of the 7th house/first house type questions. but only after *quite a lot of time has passed and quite a few other things have happened*...

You would then look at the next set of planetary partners-capricorn and cancer- thus Saturn and the moon, and we know that Saturn is a malefic and retrograde at the moment etc and the moon becomes a key factor, a catalyst for change.
And thus we would continue....Its an arduous process, but yields a lot of information and I guess you could project as far into the future as you were prepared to go, using this method.

Symbolic Time
In horary this is used a great deal-but some events do play out in *real time*-always difficult to be sure which way it will go....I use the term *somethings* to describe increments of time, because a fixed sign can indicate years or months or even weeks, depending on the context of the question....as we know...
For example-:A horary question I asked 4 years ago recently came to fruition, so to speak.
Scorpio was on the ascendant when I asked...Fixed signs on the angles...(yes! it was a *will he call me* question-He did four years later!-in *4 somethings* like the chart suggested)

Another time my dog went missing and the horary said she'd come back in *7 somethings*...mutable signs on the angles etc-she came back in seven minutes of me asking the question...So timing is very difficult....
Does anyone have any insights about this subject? I would be interested to hear of any methods used to determine time frames for outcomes.
Cheers, Lillyjgc

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Unread 03-21-2008, 08:43 PM
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Re: Long term projections using horary

Hi Lilly, I am a bit late in reading this, but it is a good question you are asking there. I have this horary book of Karen Hamaker-Zondag and she says that the horary chart can be progressed. I have not gone into this yet as just getting the normal horary facts in my system has take a lot of time and wanted to look at this later, but now that you ask, I will look into it and see what she writes and how she does it. Will maybe take a bit of time before I come back on it with Easter and such, but bear with me. Cheers and happy Easter! Star.
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Unread 03-22-2008, 04:13 AM
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Re: Long term projections using horary

Starlink, Happy Easter to you too! Thanks for replying here..Progressing a horary seems a very logical thing to do. My astrology program has a facility that allows me to *animate* a horary chart so I can advance it by increments (even seconds!),seeing where the planets are headed and what they will be doing to one another, *further down the track*.
I notice when you do a horary you consider the *symbolic* timeframe as well as the *in real time* aspect.So do I. But I keep getting the timeframe wrong so I am really determined to look deeply into this.(For the sake of accuracy!)
Thanks again Star- I look forward to your thoughts.
Cheers, Lillyjgc
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Unread 03-22-2008, 04:34 AM
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Re: Long term projections using horary

What astrology program do you use?
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Unread 03-22-2008, 05:15 PM
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Re: Long term projections using horary

For me the symbolic time seems to work better. I know of another horary astrologer that uses lunations to find timing, but whenever he did a horary for me using the lunations, it never worked quite right. Perhaps that has more to do with my natural impatience than the accuracy of lunations: I don't wait for full moons to do things!

I'm not sure where the 3-month marker comes from either, historically. Perhaps this in and of itself is a general time frame to suggest that the querent go away, sit on it for awhile, and come back. Most people, I find, tend to get in their own way and thus prevent things from developing along a 'natural' time-frame. We all want instant results; we don't want to wait for things to develop. This may have to do with the fact that we live in an 'instant' age.

AG
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Unread 03-22-2008, 06:05 PM
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Re: Long term projections using horary

Quote:
Often I am asked to provide long term projections based on horary charts- for example, the old *Will we stay/get (whatever)together for the long term*-Marriage questions for example are based on this concept.
When you ask a long term question there is one simple way to answer that. If you find your ruler near the end of some sign that is sure sign it will not last, if you find your ruler just entering new sign that means there is posibility it will last longer. Also look for his ruler and reception. If his ruler is at the end of sign where he exalts you, end is near. Or if his ruler is ready to enter sign where he exalts you that menas if you now have problems thay be solved very soon, and so on, I think you got the point.
Also look at angles in chart if thay are in fixed signs and rulers too it is more likely that state will last.

Last edited by fensi88; 03-22-2008 at 06:08 PM.
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Unread 03-22-2008, 08:53 PM
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Re: Long term projections using horary

Gee Goca, those are good tips you gave there.

I meanwhile looked into Hamakers system. She sees the horaryquestion based on the "here and now" and even though 3 month seems to be the norm, she says that we have to be flexible towards both sides. Sometimes the same question asked twice with a 3 month interval, gives a NO answer and then, after about 6 month, it all of a sudden gives a YES, so these are answers to real long term questions, like: "will I sell my house". It can take a year before you get a YES on a question like that, because after a year the time is finally is right.

A horary question is not valid for the rest of your life. A horary only shows the facets of the "here and now" and of the near future which develops according to the "here and now" of the question and only for the subject of that question.
BUT, when a question is really important , we should never throw the chart of the first time you asked the question, away because we can do far more with it. You can use progressions and transits for personal horaries and especially for event horaries.

She speaks of the "adjusted Horary chart", admitting that it is not yet so well developed, but with basic astrological knowledge very usable.
According to her experience, Primary Progressions seem to work really well when you want to see how things will develop, better than Secondary Progressions apparently. (I never even look at Primary one's, they are very complicated and need a computer to calculate them, no idea why she uses those.)

Extra additional tips she gives:
1. a planet from our nativity in the 1st house of the horary shows light and gives additional information about the problems the querent is being confronted with

2. Radix planets in other houses of the horary can show a lot as well, but disconnected from which house they rule in your birthchart.
Take your natal Uranus in the 10th of the horary chart. This could show extra information, like a sudden unexpected change in your social position. Is the horary about your career, then these changes could occur there.

3. The use of natal planets as houserulers in the horary chart.
Imagine that Uranus is ruler of the 9th in your natal chart, but falls in your 1st of the horary. This could show that a study or a longdistance trip could temporarily take up your time. The importance of such a connection is only valid of course, if the question in some way deals with studies or traveling.

4. In horary houses where our natal Moon, Saturn or Uranus fall, very often changes will take place. Where we find natal Sun, Venus or Jupiter, you can often see improvement of a situation or assistance from someone, but the house where natal Saturn falls, is usually the house which keeps us very preoccupied and that can become of great importance in a horary chart.
The house where we find natal Mercury is often the house where the thoughts of the querent lie.
Mars can work shocking and bring turbulence, but can just as well be connected with operations (when the horary is about an illness). When we find radix Mars in the houses 1, 6, 8 or 12, there is a good possibility that an operation is being considered.
Natal Neptune shows chaotic situations and sows confusion.
Pluto is more difficult because we often dont realize it's subconscious workings. Is the horary about a violent situation however, than can natal Pluto show the area where the "timebomb" or powerstruggle will explode.
Often we dont notice anything of Pluto until much later.

So, that was what I came across. These things we can always use for ourselfves and people we have the birthchart from. Interesting to try it out, but I dont know if William Lilly would ever consider doing this. Does anyone know?

Cheers, Starlink
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Unread 03-22-2008, 09:15 PM
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Re: Long term projections using horary

Quote:
*How do I know how long this chart will be valid for?*
This is something I've thought about too. The answer I give myself is "Until things change." To me it seems reasonable to suggest that horary charts predict situations as they stand now. So, a horary chart would stand up against the test of time...until the situation changes in some fashion.

Starlink, I have heard such techniques used by others, but I wonder how well they really hold up. Like you said, I don't recall Lilly ever needing a nativity of a client to get it right.
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Unread 03-23-2008, 12:25 AM
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Re: Long term projections using horary

Well. thankyou all very much for this valuable information.
I will answer you all in more detail a bit later -(I'm not getting notifications again so I didnt realise so many of you had had input here!).
I'm doing a few experiments in regard to timing at the moment.
Looks like I got a lot of homework to do!
Thanks, Lillyjgc

Last edited by lillyjgc; 08-10-2008 at 10:45 AM.
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Unread 03-23-2008, 10:27 AM
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Re: Long term projections using horary

Archergirl,
<Most people, I find, tend to get in their own way and thus prevent things from developing along a 'natural' time-frame. We all want instant results; we don't want to wait for things to develop.>

Oh yes-this is all too true.Eg: when someone leaves us, in our pain and denial we want to ask *so when will xx come back*-often in my experience the first radical chart cast to ask this question will yield the correct answer-but often its not the answer the querent *wants to hear*.Subsequent charts just dont seem to be as accurate.
fensi,
<If you find your ruler near the end of some sign that is sure sign it will not last, if you find your ruler just entering new sign that means there is posibility it will last longer.>

thanks for that-I've looked at the angles in regard to this but rulers near the end of their sign is a logical inclusion...Must go back now and look at some old charts where the answer is known now to see how this works.
Star:
If I have an accurate natal chart available I do look at it in regard to a horary if I'm a bit stumped, and yes I have often noticed some very distinct feature of the natal is reflected in the horary...
i dont know how to do *primary progressions* but might take a look into that too.
In one way I agree with you Kai, (if I am inferring correctly)-that technically a horary should/can *stand on its own* and be judged without reference to the natal (which isnt always available) but when it Is available, as Star said, the location of a planet in the asc on the horary for example can shed a great deal of light on things. I read it as : say mars is in H1 in the horary and mars is in H7 conjoined with say mercury in the natal...to me that says that *that part* of the person's natal is whats involved with the current situation about which they are asking.It seems to *work* but I dont know if William Lilly did that or not....It makes sense to utilise all of the available information though...Afterall a horary is a snapshot of a transit at a particular moment in time.I'm sure a horary chart *tells the whole story *in itself but I'm not yet sufficiently skilled to interpret at that level.
Kai- in regard to
*How do I know how long this chart will be valid for?*
This is something I've thought about too. The answer I give myself is "Until things change."

Some querents argue that a phone call constitutes a *change* (!) and sometimes it does.I find it a very subjective area.Hence we see the usual run of horaries:
(after he leaves)...*will he come back?*
(when he comes back) *will he stay?*
(when hes back) *will we be happy?*
etc etc etc etc.
I often wonder if the initial chart cast does contain a description of the whole process including the *final* outcome (Is there even any such thing???)-or is the chart only describing things *at this stage*, while the current significators are involved.
As the sky is never still, change is happening constantly and I guess the only guidance an horarist can provide is in regard to the planetary trends and the length of time those trends will be operative.
I notice when planets are retrograde in horaries though the situation is much harder to *read*..eg...Yes he has gone. His sig is retro, he will change direction at some point...which the querent will want to read as *yes-Hes coming back to me!!!* when it can just mean-yes-hes coming back-to pick up his stuff! (for example)...
Will definitely follow up with all these useful tips and info.
Thanks again folks!
Lillyjgc
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Unread 03-23-2008, 06:00 PM
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Re: Long term projections using horary

Quote:
I often wonder if the initial chart cast does contain a description of the whole process including the *final* outcome (Is there even any such thing???)-or is the chart only describing things *at this stage*, while the current significators are involved.
This is a great question!

My gut instinct is to say that the chart represents the final outcome, as the outcome stands *at that moment in time*, with nothing else interfering with it.

Since time, on our physical plane at least, is linear, perhaps the chart can project towards the final outcome of a situation, only along that line, and providing that the line is not interfered with by the querent making other choices, etc. If the querent 'interferes' with the timeline, then obviously something will change; they decide to ring their ex-boyfriend instead of waiting for him to ring, and it changes the entire outcome.

It would be interesting to study past charts where the outcome *didn't* occur as forecast in the chart, and then ask the querent what they did, if anything, that might have changed the course of events.

"Life turns on a dime", as they say, and as we know people very often try to turn the course of the river themselves, thinking that doing X will yield Y much more quickly; when actually, doing X before it 'appeared' on the timeline in the chart, will actually yield result Z (something not forecast as it wasn't on the timeline).

This is how I see it in my pictorial brain, at least.

AG
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Unread 03-24-2008, 02:05 AM
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Re: Long term projections using horary

Quote:
Since time, on our physical plane at least, is linear, perhaps the chart can project towards the final outcome of a situation, only along that line, and providing that the line is not interfered with by the querent making other choices, etc. If the querent 'interferes' with the timeline, then obviously something will change; they decide to ring their ex-boyfriend instead of waiting for him to ring, and it changes the entire outcome.
I completely agree with this, and that's what I meant with my comments in my previous post.
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Unread 03-24-2008, 12:01 PM
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Re: Long term projections using horary

Quote:
It would be interesting to study past charts where the outcome *didn't* occur as forecast in the chart, and then ask the querent what they did, if anything, that might have changed the course of events.
Yes, indeed!

I was thinking of William Lilly in his book, mentioning a case whereby a sceptic client of his asked him: "tell me what happened to me in the last two weeks". Lilly could exactly tell him what happened by looking at what the aspects to certain planets in the past, showed. This I found remarkable and therefore I was thinking, when it can be done beforehand, why not afterwards as well. But does this then mean that the client had not tried to change the event? Aspects are aspects and things just went the way it was indicated by these aspects. That's why it would also be interesting to look at future aspects and planet places (changing signs, going from weak to strong or vice versa)in order to throw some light on things to come (and we sometimes already have suggested in some horary questions in this Forum, that for the moment things looked bad, but maybe when the Moon would get into the next sign and then trine Mercury (or whatever), it would still be possible for things to perfect. What are your thoughts on this?

Starlink
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Unread 03-24-2008, 04:05 PM
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Re: Long term projections using horary

Hi Star, folks,

I certainly think horary charts are able to see trends and upcoming possibilities; that is why there is so much emphasis in some readings on the planets changing signs, etc., as you mentioned. So a relationship, for example, is about to get rockier; or a job easier, something like that.

There must be a grey area in between all this stuff; the area between what the stars view as 'fixed' along that line, and what the querent him/herself chooses to do about the situation.

The best example of this would be the 'Will I ever...?' types of questions. Sometimes the answer is 'NO', and the chart usually gives some sort of reasoning for this: no, you don't have enough money; no, he doesn't love you so forget about it; whatever.

BUT, because the chart often gives the reasoning behind the answer, the querent can then take that information away and voluntarily alter it, when possible and when the willpower exists to change; thus, in all likelihood, altering the course of events.

So we're back to whether long-term forecasting works in horary; I think it does, but like everything else, it is flexible.

Cheers,
AG
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Unread 03-24-2008, 09:04 PM
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Re: Long term projections using horary

Yes, this is well formulated AG and I go along with it, especially the reasons behind the NO answers would be good to figure out. This reminds me of the "free will" thread. So it seems, even in horary nothing is really black or white, we do have a way of altering certain things (maybe not the one that says: NO, the guy does not love you), but then we still have the possibility to let go of the guy and move on to another one.
Ciao, Star.
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