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  #1  
Unread 11-27-2013, 12:02 PM
Tinysteps Tinysteps is offline
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Discussion about randomize methods for horary

Hello,

Following ideas from a couple of my previous threads, I would like to expand on the concept of randomized horary charts and get some feedback from the community on this. Dr. Farr, whose judgement I put much stock in, seem to find the method acceptable, but I also think it warrants further discussion.

The basic concept is simply using a random generator to produce a point in time within a certain interval of years. Obviously, there are many ways to do this, but personally I just use a computerized randomizer to give a date and time between the years 1800 and 2013. I would use the querent's present location as the geographical focal point.

I can certainly see the purists of horary astrology object to this method. The question will not have any connection to the present celestial configurations, and hence the emergence of the query in the querent's mind will not "represent" the heavenly state of affairs. Yet, to me it rings true from a divinatory point of view. What time frame is used will of course be arbitrary, but I'm not sure that matters.

The pros, in my opinion, include the fact that the resulting maps will be much, much richer in variation. With the outer planets moving as slowly as they do, horary charts created anywhere in the world, within the time frame of several months, will have major structural similarities. Now, I am aware that houses play a greater importance in horary than do planetary configurations, but even so, that limitation seems to me to be rather discouraging.

Also, while horary astrologers may object to the idea of similar questions being asked by the same person within a short time-span, I don't consider this to be as much of a problem when using randomized horary charts. I am of the conviction that every form of divination, even natal astrology, is a way for the conscious self to dip into the collective unconscious for answers that may be simply out of reach of the rational mind. I don't believe in actual "planetary influence" - I think it's all about representation.

I'm a bit ambivalent about this. The traditionalist in me leans towards not giving up on the normal method. But perhaps they are not mutually exclusive.

Would love to hear some opinions about this.


Last edited by Tinysteps; 11-27-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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  #2  
Unread 11-27-2013, 12:25 PM
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

IMO, that would be against very heart and soul of astrology!

AS ABOVE SO BELOW

What you are suggesting is:

AS ABOVE in year 1800 SO BELOW in year 2013

Try to randomly generate your birthday and see if the chart describes you accurately.
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  #3  
Unread 11-27-2013, 01:49 PM
Tinysteps Tinysteps is offline
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

Hello Cap!

Thanks for your feedback. Do you believe in the I-Ching as a divination method? And if you do, why is that really different from this approach?

I am not suggesting as above in 1800, so below in 2013. I am suggesting: Universe, please bring me a symbolic representation of the answer to my question, in the form of a horoscope
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  #4  
Unread 11-27-2013, 02:49 PM
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

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Originally Posted by Tinysteps View Post
Do you believe in the I-Ching as a divination method? And if you do, why is that really different from this approach?
I don't know much about the I-Ching and I don't see the reason why it shouldn't work as divination method. Correct me if I'm wrong but I-Ching is not time and space dependable like astrology. You just randomly pick the pieces in order to construct your answer.

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Originally Posted by Tinysteps View Post
I am not suggesting as above in 1800, so below in 2013. I am suggesting: Universe, please bring me a symbolic representation of the answer to my question, in the form of a horoscope
And you have it - a symbolic representation of the answer to your question, in the form of a horoscope - through position of the planets and house cusps in the moment when the question was asked. I don't see a reason to change something so accurate and reliable like horary.
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  #5  
Unread 11-27-2013, 03:04 PM
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

It's a plausible theory but, would need supporting evidence to back it up in the forms of many charts done with conclusions. I'd also like to hear more of why a random date would have an attachment to a particular question. With the way that horary questions are done now, the theory is that as a day progresses and angles are made to the current set of planets, these angles will interact with a native's natal chart and thus cause concern and as a result, form the horary questions. Thus, the time taken for a question is a current time configuration that hits natal points. It's a but harder to describe the reason for a "correct answer" but, again there is a correlation from the current transits back to a natal chart and the current configuration simply provides a view back to the natal. You don't need the natal as the horary question chart provides all the angles to answer the question which seems to be the reason for the popularity of this method, as it doesn't need a valid natal chart.

Just curious - what are you using to provide a random date & time?
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Unread 11-27-2013, 08:17 PM
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

I actually tried this some time ago now. A conventional chart and a randomized chart were cast in the same session for the same question. I had some difficulty getting a date in range of my ephemeris doing this all by hand then. However, when I had both charts, the conventional chart worked for the question, but the randomized chart would not show anything. So I gave up the experiment.

Also let me add that I do not consider traditional astrology in any form to be divination. I do not accept the RCC definition of divination=prediction. In real divination a Control is invoked which, if reliable, fetches the answer which is then read by various divinatory methods. Astrology is reading the answer from the stars and no intermediary is required.
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  #7  
Unread 11-28-2013, 10:00 AM
Tinysteps Tinysteps is offline
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

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Originally Posted by Marinka View Post
It's a plausible theory but, would need supporting evidence to back it up in the forms of many charts done with conclusions. I'd also like to hear more of why a random date would have an attachment to a particular question. [...]

Just curious - what are you using to provide a random date & time?
Completely agree on the need for supporting evidence. That's the main reason for doing this, to see if it holds up. Would love if people would try it out and share their experience as it unfolds. Perhaps it can be applied in a different fashion, a more specialized form of divination, compared to regular horary. I'm not sure.

I don't believe a random date would have an attachment to a particular question per se - the connection is made at the "generating" moment. It will be more like the individual becoming her own medium, like in I-Ching, or if you would ask a question and generate a Sabian symbol as a symbolic answer.

There are many ways to provide a random date, I used an online one here: http://www.zodiac-astrology.com/randomtime.html
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  #8  
Unread 11-29-2013, 07:27 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

I still think it is an intriguing concept (relative to horary) Only the test of experience (with a minimum of 100 legitimate horary delineations) will show whether or not such a method is applicable to horary. At least a 70% correct level would be needed (in the first 100 samples), to encourage further testing (a second tier of another 100 tests, then a third tier of 100 more tests)-if an accuracy level of 70% or higher is maintained through the 300 tests, then we could SOMEWHAT say that this method could possibly have merit.
In such tests it would probably be best to make the questions answerable by yes or no responses.
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  #9  
Unread 11-29-2013, 07:34 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

The problem I see, in this specific method, using the random time generator, is that the generator is limited to only a 213 year time span: if truly randomized, the time span should be at least that of a Platonic Year (approx. 26000 years) However, I have no idea of where such a random time generator can be found (if one such exists at all!)-so, the OP will have to test using the resources available.
I wish the OP good luck in these tests!!
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  #10  
Unread 11-29-2013, 12:04 PM
Tinysteps Tinysteps is offline
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
The problem I see, in this specific method, using the random time generator, is that the generator is limited to only a 213 year time span: if truly randomized, the time span should be at least that of a Platonic Year (approx. 26000 years) However, I have no idea of where such a random time generator can be found (if one such exists at all!)-so, the OP will have to test using the resources available.
I wish the OP good luck in these tests!!
Truly random I don't think I could hope for I don't know how far back one would really have to go, and then there's the problem of ephemerises!

However, the website I linked above is actually my own, just a casual experiment from years back. I recently went back to it just to implement that little randomizer. Even with my amateur grasp on php-code, I could quite easily make it range back to the start of the christian era, year 0. Perhaps I will do that and start considering ways to test the idea of random charts, in a more empirical fashion.
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  #11  
Unread 11-29-2013, 10:01 PM
Clinton Soule Clinton Soule is offline
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

What I'm hearing in this is parralell to an 'assembly line production like in a factory setting'!

There are reasons that iconic mentors like Lilly and Bonatti studied The Ancients!



Next thing I'll hear is we need to give up on study of individual nativities and go totally computerized delineation printouts!





There is more work involved in the task of truly interpreting any astrology endeavor and automated astrology will only make us appear more like pseudo astrologers!
.



Shall we just dismiss tradition???????????
.
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  #12  
Unread 11-30-2013, 02:06 AM
Clinton Soule Clinton Soule is offline
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary





maybe if one actually studies the works of the forefathers of horary and nativities, etc...., they just might evolve out of the infantcy stages of astrological misunderstanding and confusion..........



Last edited by Clinton Soule; 11-30-2013 at 02:09 AM.
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  #13  
Unread 11-30-2013, 03:53 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

[QUOTE=Tinysteps; Even with my amateur grasp on php-code, I could quite easily make it range back to the start of the christian era, year 0. Perhaps I will do that and start considering ways to test the idea of random charts, in a more empirical fashion.[/QUOTE]

I think that would be a good idea-any way you can increase the random possibilities I think would help: and, astro.com free horoscopes can erect charts for dates at least back to 0 CE, and forward to 5000 AD-so a randomizer from 0 CE to 5000 AD would greatly extend the random possibilities!

Last edited by dr. farr; 11-30-2013 at 03:57 AM.
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  #14  
Unread 11-30-2013, 11:23 AM
Tinysteps Tinysteps is offline
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
I think that would be a good idea-any way you can increase the random possibilities I think would help: and, astro.com free horoscopes can erect charts for dates at least back to 0 CE, and forward to 5000 AD-so a randomizer from 0 CE to 5000 AD would greatly extend the random possibilities!
Well that was an easy task! The randomizer now ranges from the first year in the common era, to the future year of 5000. I set the bottom year-limit to '1' instead of '0', to ensure the start will be on this side of the assumed birth of Christ (correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that if you put year '0000' into the calculator at astro.com, it will erect a chart for the year preceding (1 BC) his birth).
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  #15  
Unread 12-23-2013, 07:35 PM
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

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Originally Posted by Tinysteps View Post
Well that was an easy task! The randomizer now ranges from the first year in the common era, to the future year of 5000. I set the bottom year-limit to '1' instead of '0', to ensure the start will be on this side of the assumed birth of Christ (correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that if you put year '0000' into the calculator at astro.com, it will erect a chart for the year preceding (1 BC) his birth).
Have you done any more work with this?
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  #16  
Unread 12-30-2013, 11:47 AM
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

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Originally Posted by Marinka View Post
Have you done any more work with this?
No, I haven't really done any testing with this method yet. Part of me feels I am way too inexperienced with horary to be a good candidate for it, and I am unsure of what kind of test samples would be appropriate.

I'm unsure. I could possibly use Dr. Farr's rather straightforward method for yes/no answers, and choose questions posed on this forum, but even that method in its simple elegance I am not confident with.
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  #17  
Unread 12-31-2013, 05:18 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Discussion about randomize methods for horary

If you mean the Walis "Magic 8 Ball" divination method, its really simple to use: see the first few posts on my thread in the Horary Techniques forum, entitled "Magic 8 Ball Technique", for instructions in using this approach for yes/no questions...
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