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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 10-04-2018, 07:00 PM
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Saturn the Greater Malefic

As I mentioned a while back, I'm taking Christopher Warnock's Complete Astrological Magic course, and I've been busy with the homework, so it's all HIS fault that I haven't been on-line for a while!

I made a Venus talisman last summer which I shared on this page. I've had more practice, so I'm going to make a Saturn talisman soon. I attach the chart of the election.

Of course, I wanted to take advantage of Saturn being in domicile; in the election chart I managed to get him close to the ascendant on the Day and Hour of Saturn. The Moon does not appear to be afflicted, although it is a bit slow, but hey! At least it's waxing! If anyone sees something that I don't (in terms of reasons to not use this particular election), do let me know, it's always good to have other eyes looking over things like this.

I've been hesitant up to now to make talismans involving the malefics due to the intense energies involved. It's true that in a day chart, where we find Mars tends to give us difficulties with regard to the topics that the house it finds itself in. Same with Saturn in a night chart. And I have a night chart, so I've been hesitant! Yikes!

But then I came across a quote from Marsilio Ficino: , "You certainly should not neglect the power of Saturn...those who give themselves over to with their whole mind to the divine contemplation signified by Saturn himself can escape his negative influence and receive his propitious power. The Chaldeans, Egyptians and Platonists think that by this method one can avoid the malice of fate." Three Books on Life, Bk III, ch 22.

It got me thinking about the celestial order of the planets, of how Saturn is the closest to the Primum Mobile...

Kabalistically, Saturn is the celestial (or Assiatic) manifestation of the Sphere Binah/Understanding and it is here we find the roots for Saturning signifying esoteric and hidden knowledge; the secrets of magic, astrology and alchemy, and this is leaving aside for now his other positive qualities of giving long life, discipline and stability.

Anyway, I just wanted to briefly share what I've been thinking about over these past few weeks. I plan to engrave a magic square on lead for the Saturn talisman, along with various kabbalistic symbols and Names.

Kind regards

Rhys
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Last edited by Rhys; 10-04-2018 at 07:03 PM.
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Unread 10-04-2018, 08:20 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

With my own chart being nocturnal and having Saturn domicile in Capricorn, angular, I can definitely understand the hesitation in interacting with him.

Still, I've been looking into ways of keeping him "happy," and your method has peeked my interests. Will you post a picture of the finished piece?
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Unread 10-04-2018, 09:53 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Hi Rhys. Do you look at the 28 lunar mansions on that course?

Best wishes

Miquar
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Unread 10-05-2018, 02:08 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Hmm, are you satisfied with having the Moon in the 12th house? I also realize that this is the second election where the Moon's location would be in Sagittarius. Do you have any important natal points in the sign that makes you choose this sign for the moon to be in? Since one should connect the chart in some meaningful way to the natal, so that the talisman has good synergy with the querent.

What about the south node in the 1st? Unconcerned?
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Unread 10-05-2018, 07:18 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Good questions, I'll get back to you them in more detail tomorrow, but for now, I'll share the criteria I've been using for choosing a planetary election. It is so difficult getting everything lined up, that I have been strictly limiting myself to:

1. Planet dignified, preferably by exaltation or sign or multiple
lesser dignities p+4 or more.
2. Rising or culminating, i.e. within 8 degrees of the Ascendant or
Midheaven.
3. Planetary hour.
4. Planet and Moon unafflicted, .i.e. not in detriment, fall,
retrograde, combust, not applying to square or oppose any planet, not
applying to conjoin undignified Saturn, South Node or afflicted
planet, (i.e. detriment, fall, retrograde combust)

All to say that I'm not treating the talisman election like a natal chart...

I am pretty much looking exclusively at one sector of the chart, i.e. the planetary strength of the talismanic planet and simply that the Moon is not afflicted. It was by chance that it happened to be in Sag, obviously if it had been in Scorpio or Capricorn, it would have nixed the election.

I was indeed concerned about south node in the 1st, but figured since they are 29ー apart it would be ok. But let me think about that some more.

Thank you for bringing up all these points, I'm re-thinking everything!

All the best - Rhys
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Unread 10-05-2018, 07:20 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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Originally Posted by miquar View Post
Hi Rhys. Do you look at the 28 lunar mansions on that course?

Best wishes

Miquar
Hi Miquar

The answer to your question is yes. I don't quite have my head around it though, but I'll be studying it in more detail in the coming month.

Kind regards

Rhys
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Unread 10-06-2018, 03:11 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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Hmm, are you satisfied with having the Moon in the 12th house? I also realize that this is the second election where the Moon's location would be in Sagittarius. Do you have any important natal points in the sign that makes you choose this sign for the moon to be in? Since one should connect the chart in some meaningful way to the natal, so that the talisman has good synergy with the querent.

What about the south node in the 1st? Unconcerned?
I hope everybody likes my new avatar, I thought that since we are speaking of talismans, I might as well get into the look! It seems appropriate to be discussing Saturn on a Saturday. I have my black candle lit on my altar with an onyx stone in front of it, so I'm all set!

Whilst selecting the talisman election, I was concerned about the very questions that conspiracy theorist posed (cf above) but in spite of that I decided to go with the election for various reasons. I went over those reasons last night and I will share them with you here.

First of all, I am posting the election again, but this time I did it in Solar Fire using a standard wheel with Regiomontanus houses. I also threw in the outer planets in order to make a point, which I'll get to.

You'll see from looking at the chart that we have the Moon in H12, omg! Not only that, but Pluto and the south node are in H1, the same house as Saturn, the planet the election is being made for. And Mars figures into this too, being in the 1st house, ouch! Also, the Moon in Sag happens to be within three degrees of my natal Mars, one might well ask if that is going to pose a problem as well!

The brief answer is that, no, none of that stuff matters in a talisman election chart.

Keep in mind that in traditional talisman making, we draw upon traditional texts for the factors to include in our Talisman. The bible for Talisman making is of course The Picatrix (cf . Book II, Ch 10) We can also draw on texts such as Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy (cf Book II, chapters 22, 29, 30, 32, 35, 38-45) as well as The Greater Key of Solomon (trans S.L. McGregor Mathers).

Some of these texts only require that the talisman be made on the day and hour of the concerned planet. Others require only that the planet be dignified and rising. All to say that we do not concern ourselves with any other factors other than the ones that are called for in the source text we are using.

As a general rule, unless the source text specifically calls for something different, the relevant factors that we look for in choosing a talisman election are as follows:

1. Planet dignified, preferably by exaltation or sign or multiple
lesser dignities p+4 or more.
2. Rising or culminating, ie within 8 degrees of the Ascendant or
Midheaven, note that this is not the same as being in the 1st or 10th
houses...
3. Planetary hour
4. Planet and Moon unafflicted, ie, not in detriment, fall,
retrograde, combust, not applying to square or oppose any planet, not
applying to conjoin undignified Saturn, South Node or afflicted
planet, (ie detriment, fall, retrograde combust)

And yet! I had my doubts, I was really worried about Pluto, Mars and south node being in H1, omg!!! So last night I wrote to the master astrologer/mage (Christopher Warnock) and double checked with him, here is what he wrote back:

"We choose the relevant factors and then find charts based on just
these factors. We ignore everything else, we do not look at chart of
talismans like a natal chart and we don't do synastry between our
natal chart and the talisman chart. The practical reality is that if
you try to control more than about 3-5 factors it makes it very, very
difficult to find a chart. If we don't base the chart on selected
factors, we just end up with a mishmash of charts chosen subjectively
with different criteria for each chart."

I was much relieved when I received this note.

So there you have it.

By the way, Conspiracy Theorist, there is an interesting little book by Israel Regardie that can be downloaded for free in PDF form entitled: How to Make and Use Talismans. It quotes from traditional sources and is the clearest "how-to" text i've come across on the subject. Definitely worth downloading.

Kind regards

Rhys
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Last edited by Rhys; 10-06-2018 at 03:15 PM.
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Unread 10-06-2018, 03:49 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

I'm liking the warlock look m8. I'll be downloading that book by Israel Regardie in short order, too.
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Unread 10-07-2018, 05:39 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

In my experience, electional moments are very hard to find. A nasty transit can hang on for a long time, after which some of the beneficial planets have moved out of their previously favourable positions.

Traditionally Saturn rules all kinds of misfortunes but his lessons are patience, hard work, deferred gratification, and frugality. He's also the traditional ruler of agriculture.

My feeling about talismans is that it's better to place one's faith in God, however one defines divine consciousness. Of course, if one doesn't believe in God by whatever name or faith, then it's hard to imagine a cosmos populated by lesser disincarnate entitities such that talismans would have some efficacy. We're otherwise left with a spiritually vacant world-- explained by science.

Nice black hoodie, Rhys.
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Unread 10-07-2018, 05:49 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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My feeling about talismans is that it's better to place one's faith in God, however one defines divine consciousness. Of course, if one doesn't believe in God by whatever name or faith, then it's hard to imagine a cosmos populated by lesser disincarnate entitities such that talismans would have some efficacy. We're otherwise left with a spiritually vacant world-- explained by science.
A cosmos filled with discarnate entitities but with no Supreme Being is certainly not impossible. There are Buddhist Tantras and traditions with various visualization practices, but Buddhism is an entirely non-theistic religion.
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Unread 10-07-2018, 08:19 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Thanks Rhys. I'd be interested to know which books or internet sources are recommended reading for that part of the course, and even to see any material issued as part of the course. There's plenty of stuff about the 27 lunar mansions used in Vedic astrology, but not much about the 28 lunar mansions.

Best wishes

Miquar
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Unread 10-07-2018, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miquar View Post
Thanks Rhys. I'd be interested to know which books or internet sources are recommended reading for that part of the course, and even to see any material issued as part of the course. There's plenty of stuff about the 27 lunar mansions used in Vedic astrology, but not much about the 28 lunar mansions.

Best wishes

Miquar

Anthony Louis has it in his book horary simple ...
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Thanks Tikana. Was hoping for something as psychologically oriented as possible - thought that electional stuff would be more about the quality of each mansion, while horary would be more about concrete correspondences?

Best wishes

Miquar
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Unread 10-08-2018, 03:53 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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A cosmos filled with discarnate entitities but with no Supreme Being is certainly not impossible. There are Buddhist Tantras and traditions with various visualization practices, but Buddhism is an entirely non-theistic religion.
Of course it's possible but you don't have to anthropomorphize divine consciousness. That's why I refered to "divine consciousness." Think Chi (qi,) prana, mana, "life force," and so on.
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Unread 10-08-2018, 04:12 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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Of course it's possible but you don't have to anthropomorphize divine consciousness. That's why I refered to "divine consciousness." Think Chi (qi,) prana, mana, "life force," and so on.
There is no similar thing in Buddhism. Are you saying that belief in the Four Elements constitutes belief in god or just protoscience? I am also non-theistic and disbelieve what you say, yet I do believe in the efficacy of talismans or religious practice.

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Unread 10-08-2018, 04:16 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

We could discuss Buddhism if it weren't such a huge digression from the OP.

I don't think you understand me, but no matter.

Then on what possible basis could talismans work? I have my answer but I'll hang onto it until I see yours-- or Rhys's answer.
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Unread 10-08-2018, 04:16 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

I fail to see where mention was made of an anthropomorphic being, whether by Rhys or any of the subsequent posts.
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Unread 10-08-2018, 04:20 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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I fail to see where mention was made of an anthropomorphic being, whether by Rhys or any of the subsequent posts.
It is characteristic of some people to get on this board and make snarky comments on talismans or traditional astrology.
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Unread 10-08-2018, 04:28 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

So please answer my question. I can tell you why I think talismans can work (having studied runes at one point in my life) but I'd like to see what you or Rhys say, first.

I haven't made snarky comments on traditional astrology.
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Unread 10-08-2018, 04:31 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

Petosiris, what you need to get is that anything short of a loyalty oath to traditional astrology ("Raise your right hand and repeat after me....") is not snarky, in and of itself. We need to hang on to our common sense and faculties of observation, regardless.
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Unread 10-08-2018, 06:12 AM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

I think one could obviate any need for any anthropomorphism in the study and practice of talismans if -

- One accepts the hermetic principle of "as above, so below". Does astrology work? Is there at least any astrological effects that can be verified scientifically? The Gauquelin studies seems to be a positive mark in the favour of astrology working.

- One accepts that there are supersensible laws that science cannot or will not investigate.

- One accepts that science has not cracked the code of consciousness.

- that one believes that magic is technical and requires no belief - but the proper working of an operation in order to get a specific result. Often times what is used to verify is repeated and similar effects from practitioners, or having an experience and then seeing it verified in later research - ensuring that one didn't induce that effect in oneself

- that one accepts that magic works on the subjective realms - meaning that the proper way to verify occult effects aren't strictly scientific in the modern sense of the word. And also that there is an objective constitution of that subjective realm, that can be accurately mapped by occult techniques and practices.

- One accepts that there is more to reality than our 3 dimensional experience and the infallibility of our sense impressions, and that all these dimensions are intertwined with one another in a way where they can effect each other. In Jung's treatment on synchronicity, he pulls on the works J. B. Rhine where the guesses of those who partook in the study of the right symbol showing up on a randomly generated sequence of cards was much more than statistically expected. It was shown that the more the test subject was interested and believed in the rightness of their result, the more they made the right call. It was also shown that no matter the disparity in time or space, that the results remained the same, in some cases showed even more positive results. This indicates that whatever process is occuring in the process of guessing/divining , it's not bounded by time nor space. A book that might provide a different perspective on what constitutes the universe and how it works is "A Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot http://www.rybn.org/ANTI/ADMXI/docum...c_Universe.pdf

- One accepts that spiritual forces aren't "like us" in that they are constituted in a human-like way. Many practitioners report angels actually being more akin to platonic solids, for example. However, spiritual forces have to communicate to us in some fashion, and those who are less familiar with the true nature of a being will see that being through their imaginative faculties first and foremost - which often means the mainstream Christian view of baby faced winged cherubs with smooth skin and golden halos above their heads.

- One accepts that magic is primarily practiced and experienced. And that one is allowed to experiment with and verify the claims made by the various magical practitioners and texts, to see if they have any efficacy whatsoever. Not the scientific method, but certainly the scientific spirit.

- That astrological effects can be manipulated and that objects that are sympathetic to the nature of the planetary force can be augmented by the proper operations at the requisite time (working on a piece of lead on a Saturday in the hour of Saturn) in order to multiply the energy signature of the operated upon object

- One doesn't take the anthropomorphic language of the texts too literally. There is the pardes method of the kabbalists and the 4 ways of interpreting religious/spiritual texts by the perennialist school that indicates that there are at least 3 other ways of interpretation apart from the literal reading of a passage of a text.

- One doesn't see the talisman as an idol like a Zemi would be to the arawaks, but an artifact that facilitates that energetic pattern to manifest in one's life, the contemplation of which will result in a better understanding and facility with said energy, and thus more likely to result in positive outcomes after sufficient mastery has been gained. That's probably why beginners aren't recommended to work with Mars or Saturn because of their harsher effects at the outset, especially if it's a problematic energy to deal with for the operator.

- The talisman is viewed as a "captured transit" where instead of waiting for a transit of a certain planet to a point in your chart to begin working on that energy, that you have that energy in such a form as it can be worked with regardless of what's going on in the sky at that moment in time.

No recourse needs to be made to an anthropomorphic deity to partake in the process of creating talismans. As to its efficacy, one should experiment and find out for oneself. Endless theorising on the matter is useless.
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

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Unread 10-08-2018, 05:21 PM
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Re: Saturn the Greater Malefic

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121603 - for off-topic not related to OP's post on his election and his discussion of Saturn. I will reply there.
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