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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 08-07-2019, 01:54 PM
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since time immemorial MERCURY is the ruler of astrology and astrologers

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post

Mercury rules astrologers and astrology.

Has since time immemorial

.
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=121676

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post

Astrology has always had her planet...Mercury, messenger of the gods.

Mercury rules all sorts of "magick".
The orbit of Mercury holds a very high inclination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post

Mercury completes 46 sidereal cycles and 145 synodic cycles with 46 years.
It has retreating arcs of 12 degrees for 20 days.
Mercury is alternating between moistening and drying, and common.

Mercury controls interpretation, messengers, critical thinking, judgement, philosophers, diviners, astrologers,

prophets

It is chronocrator over childhood up to the 14th year.

Bibliography:
Robbins, F. E. (1940). Ptolemy: Tetrabiblos. William Heinmann, London. Retrieved from http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...blos/home.html
Valens, V. Anthologia. Translated by Mark Riley. Retrieved from https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 08-07-2019, 03:03 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: since time immemorial MERCURY is the ruler of astrology and astrologers

Probably because of the amount of knowledge involved and the intellectual capacities needed to understand and work with magick. But I do not know if Mercury can be called a ruler of both astrology and all forms of magick. To me a ruler is someone who can give the results or deny them, can a trickster god be a ruler for a serious study of astrology or magick?
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 03:33 PM
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Re: since time immemorial MERCURY is the ruler of astrology and astrologers

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

Probably because of the amount of knowledge involved
and the intellectual capacities needed to understand and work with magick.
But I do not know if Mercury can be called a ruler of both astrology and all forms of magick.
To me a ruler is someone who can give the results
or deny them, can a trickster god
be a ruler for a serious study of astrology or magick?
as defined by some - magick is a form of illusion
western astrology is considered "fairground entertainment"


'.... Mercurys effects go in many directions
depending on the changes of the zodia
and the interactions of the stars
and yields quite varied results...
as for the end result
Mercury will make everything capricious in outcome
and quite disturbed....' Vettius Valens THE ANTHOLOGY
https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf



CARMEN ASTROLOGICUM Dorotheus of Sidon Book One
translated by David Pingree http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus1.pdf

CARMEN ASTROLOGICUM Dorotheus of Sidon Book Two
translated by David Pingree
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus2.pdf

CARMEN ASTROLOGICUM Dorotheus of Sidon Book Three
translated by David Pingree
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dorotheus3.pdf
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 08-07-2019, 03:56 PM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Re: since time immemorial MERCURY is the ruler of astrology and astrologers

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
Probably because of the amount of knowledge involved and the intellectual capacities needed to understand and work with magick. But I do not know if Mercury can be called a ruler of both astrology and all forms of magick. To me a ruler is someone who can give the results or deny them, can a trickster god be a ruler for a serious study of astrology or magick?
I was thinking Mercury, the trickster god, makes sense for magic, as most occult traditions are hidden or secret. They are layered and easily misinterpreted, so the knowledge is kept safe from curious prying eyes and revealed only to those who are real magicians or w/e. I think Mercury, the trickster, makes absolute sense.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 04:34 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: since time immemorial MERCURY is the ruler of astrology and astrologers

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I was thinking Mercury, the trickster god, makes sense for magic, as most occult traditions are hidden or secret. They are layered and easily misinterpreted, so the knowledge is kept safe from curious prying eyes and revealed only to those who are real magicians or w/e. I think Mercury, the trickster, makes absolute sense.
That is a good way to put it so you mean most magicians are tricked into believing that they are doing magic by Mercury?
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 04:43 PM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Re: since time immemorial MERCURY is the ruler of astrology and astrologers

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That is a good way to put it so you mean most magicians are tricked into believing that they are doing magic by Mercury?
Not at all. I believe that deep occult traditions and knowledge are hidden. There's more to it then first meets the eye. You could read a passage from a grimoire and take it at face value. Do x + y + z to complete whatever ritual, but if you try that ritual from the surface instructions, you're probably missing the main point/core of the knowledge and will not yield the maximum result.

Mercury, as ruler of the occult/magic/astrology, tricks someone. It gives you the knowledge, potentially written down and everything, but there is deeper knowledge than what is on the surface and Mercury makes you think there is nothing deeper there. You take it at face value, because of that Mercurial trickster theme. Does that make sense to you?

Edit: I do not believe magic is mere illusion as many others believe.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 04:55 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: since time immemorial MERCURY is the ruler of astrology and astrologers

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Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
Not at all. I believe that deep occult traditions and knowledge are hidden. There's more to it then first meets the eye. You could read a passage from a grimoire and take it at face value. Do x + y + z to complete whatever ritual, but if you try that ritual from the surface instructions, you're probably missing the main point/core of the knowledge and will not yield the maximum result.

Mercury, as ruler of the occult/magic/astrology, tricks someone. It gives you the knowledge, potentially written down and everything, but there is deeper knowledge than what is on the surface and Mercury makes you think there is nothing deeper there. You take it at face value, because of that Mercurial trickster theme. Does that make sense to you?

Edit: I do not believe magic is mere illusion as many others believe.

Yes, and I think if I were to ask Mercury the same thing he would definitely answer "Of course I trick some magicians into believing that they are doing real magick", because that is what a trickster god does.
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 05:53 PM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Re: since time immemorial MERCURY is the ruler of astrology and astrologers

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
Yes, and I think if I were to ask Mercury the same thing he would definitely answer "Of course I trick some magicians into believing that they are doing real magick", because that is what a trickster god does.
I'm not sure what your point is. The terms 'magic', 'occult' and 'astrology' are nebulous to me, vast in a way that makes me wonder if such concepts are confined solely to one planet.

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Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
But I do not know if Mercury can be called a ruler of both astrology and all forms of magick. To me a ruler is someone who can give the results or deny them, can a trickster god be a ruler for a serious study of astrology or magick?
I'm not as familiar with traditional astrology. What do we mean by rulership really? Does it really mean the planet gives results or denies them? Is it really just a matter of strength?

Even though for instance that Mercury is debilitated and in fall in Pisces, I've heard that Merc in Pisces has higher statistical significance in theoretical physicists and MENSA members. Clearly being in detriment and fall hasn't automatically denied intelligence to the natives, so what exactly do we mean?

Last edited by moonkat235; 08-07-2019 at 05:57 PM.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 06:38 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: since time immemorial MERCURY is the ruler of astrology and astrologers

Mercury is the abstract mind. It is what distinguishes us as humans. Without Mercury... Non language, no mathematics, no invention and technology, no astrology. All of these and more are products of abstract thought.
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  #10  
Unread 08-07-2019, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
I'm not sure what your point is. The terms 'magic', 'occult' and 'astrology' are nebulous to me, vast in a way that makes me wonder if such concepts are confined solely to one planet.



I'm not as familiar with traditional astrology. What do we mean by rulership really? Does it really mean the planet gives results or denies them? Is it really just a matter of strength?

Even though for instance that Mercury is debilitated and in fall in Pisces, I've heard that Merc in Pisces has higher statistical significance in theoretical physicists and MENSA members. Clearly being in detriment and fall hasn't automatically denied intelligence to the natives, so what exactly do we mean?
Rulership is a nuanced term indicating dominion over, disposition of, representation of...is sometimes a simple index.

Some examples:

There is "natural rulership". In the natural horoscope, with Aries rising, Taurus (Venus ruled) occupies the 2nd house of money (liquid assets), so Venus is natural ruler of money and rules "money" in any and every chart. The real reasons for her natural rulership of money lie deeper than I have described, within the inherent qualities and powers of the planet.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 07:13 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
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Re: since time immemorial MERCURY is the ruler of astrology and astrologers

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Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
I'm not sure what your point is. The terms 'magic', 'occult' and 'astrology' are nebulous to me, vast in a way that makes me wonder if such concepts are confined solely to one planet.
I made a pun with trickster, you are over analysing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
I'm not as familiar with traditional astrology. What do we mean by rulership really? Does it really mean the planet gives results or denies them? Is it really just a matter of strength?

Even though for instance that Mercury is debilitated and in fall in Pisces, I've heard that Merc in Pisces has higher statistical significance in theoretical physicists and MENSA members. Clearly being in detriment and fall hasn't automatically denied intelligence to the natives, so what exactly do we mean?
Rulership is associated with signs while strength of a planet is associated with dignities. If someone comes to my home the way I behave is up to me alone and no one else, that is what I meant to say ruler can give or deny results.

I do not buy into the categorical placements being the sole contributors to something tangible or intangible in a native's chart. That is modern astrology's domain and this is not the place to discuss, nor I'm interested to discuss.

My quick answer would be Jupiter being the traditional ruler of Pisces and Jupiter being a planet known for knowledge, so Mercury in Pisces would provide possibility for a native's intellectual capabilities to expand without boundaries.
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Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
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  #12  
Unread 08-07-2019, 09:08 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: since time immemorial MERCURY is the ruler of astrology and astrologers

I've noticed that Mars in Taurus is a strong, significant placement in many charts. I'm doubting that being in Detriment and Fall are all about strength of influence. Quality, perhaps, meaning problematic in some way. Signs impart qualities, and perhaps some ruler/sign matchups result in better quality of expression than others.

Last edited by david starling; 08-07-2019 at 09:18 PM.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 09:23 PM
david starling david starling is offline
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Smile Re: since time immemorial MERCURY is the ruler of astrology and astrologers

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post
Not at all. I believe that deep occult traditions and knowledge are hidden. There's more to it then first meets the eye. You could read a passage from a grimoire and take it at face value. Do x + y + z to complete whatever ritual, but if you try that ritual from the surface instructions, you're probably missing the main point/core of the knowledge and will not yield the maximum result.

Mercury, as ruler of the occult/magic/astrology, tricks someone. It gives you the knowledge, potentially written down and everything, but there is deeper knowledge than what is on the surface and Mercury makes you think there is nothing deeper there. You take it at face value, because of that Mercurial trickster theme. Does that make sense to you?

Edit: I do not believe magic is mere illusion as many others believe.
I believe real magic is deliberately hidden by "magic tricks". Makes sense, because real magic was condemned by the Church as being "of the Devil"; and, that there's a fanatical, obsessive need ingrained in modern materialistic science to deny its existence.

Last edited by david starling; 08-07-2019 at 09:57 PM.
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Unread 08-07-2019, 10:12 PM
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Re: since time immemorial MERCURY is the ruler of astrology and astrologers

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post

Rulership is a nuanced term
indicating dominion over, disposition of, representation of
...is sometimes a simple index.
This thread is on our traditional board
and
Traditionally RULERSHIP is described as follows
'... a planet or significator is in his own house
represents a man in such a condition,
as that he is Lord of his own house, estate and fortune;
or a man wanting very little of the Goods of this world,
or it tells you that the man is in a very happy state or condition...'
William Lilly, Christian Astrology
Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post

Some examples:
There is "natural rulership". In the natural horoscope, with Aries rising, Taurus (Venus ruled) occupies the 2nd house of money (liquid assets),
so Venus is natural ruler of money and rules "money" in any and every chart.
The real reasons for her natural rulership of money lie deeper than I have described,
within the inherent qualities and powers of the planet.
that's modernist astrology

INSTEAD
traditionally
we have the THEMA MUNDI
with Cancer rising





traditionally

planets have multiple significations
the traditional significations of planets as associated with "money" are highlighted
those beginners interested can find

petosiris complete significations guide for each planet
at https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...97&postcount=1
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Introduction to Hellenistic Astrology Part II - Seven Stars

Saturn completes 2 sidereal cycles and 57 synodic cycles with 59 years.
It has retreating arcs of 7 degrees for 140 days.
Saturn is cooling and moderately drying, malefic, masculine and diurnal.
Saturn controls obstacles in business, tax collectors, administration of that which belongs to others.

Jupiter completes 6 sidereal cycles and 65 synodic cycles with 71 years.
It has retreating arcs of 10 degrees for 120 days.
Jupiter is heating and moderately moistening, benefic, masculine and diurnal.
'...Jupiter controls prosperity, payments, large gifts, abundance of profits, inheritances, the livelihood of the father, entrustments, treasures, stewardship....'


Mars completes 42 sidereal cycles and 37 synodic cycles with 79 years.
It has retreating arcs of 16 degrees for 72 days.
'...Mars controls robbery, the loss of property, violent theft, banditry, plundering...'



Sun completes sidereal cycles with 365.25636 days and anomalistic cycles with 365.25963 days.
'.....Sun controls loftiness of fortune, providence, gold....'



Venus completes 8 sidereal cycles and 5 synodic cycles with 8 years.
It has retreating arcs of 15 degrees for 40 days.
Venus is moistening and moderately heating, benefic, feminine and nocturnal.
'.....Venus controls wearing of golden crowns and ornaments, acquisition of additional property, buying maidens and ornaments, working with gold and precious stones, trades and shops, giving and receiving, the livelihood of the mother.....'


Mercury completes 46 sidereal cycles and 145 synodic cycles with 46 years.
It has retreating arcs of 12 degrees for 20 days.Mercury is alternating between moistening and drying, and common.
'...Mercury controls profit, testing coins, marketing, banking, gamblers, luxury, renting...'



Moon completes sidereal cycles with 27.32166 days and anomalistic cycles with 27.55454 days.
Ascending Node completes retreating sidereal cycles with 18.61295 years.
'....Moon controls the household, affluence, fortune, housekeeping, gains and expenditures....'


Bibliography:
Robbins, F. E. (1940). Ptolemy: Tetrabiblos. William Heinmann, London. Retrieved from http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...blos/home.html
Valens, V. Anthologia. Translated by Mark Riley. Retrieved from https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 08-07-2019, 10:58 PM
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Re: since time immemorial MERCURY is the ruler of astrology and astrologers

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonkat235 View Post

I'm not as familiar with traditional astrology.
What do we mean by rulership really?
Does it really mean the planet gives results or denies them? Is it really just a matter of strength?
Even though for instance that Mercury is debilitated and in fall in Pisces,
I've heard that Merc in Pisces has higher statistical significance
in theoretical physicists and MENSA members.
Clearly being in detriment and fall
hasn't automatically denied intelligence to the natives, so
what exactly do we mean?

Mercury in Pisces is in the domicile aka home of Jupiter
as well as the Exalted home of Venus
therefore
the natal chart locations of Jupiter and Venus
any aspects made by natal Jupiter and Venus
as well as factors highlighted in the following helpful traditional TABLES
traditionally are all taken into account
when delineating Pisces Mercury



Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post




































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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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