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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #1  
Unread 05-14-2019, 03:13 AM
YonyGursho YonyGursho is offline
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Questions about the natal moon and mercury

Is the moon we are born with our natural level of emotional strength that we were born with?

Is the mercury we are born with our natural level of mental strength that we were born with?

Because as far as I'm aware of, the natal moon and natal mercury is something unique to ourselves, so everyone must have a naturally different brain and naturally different level of emotional strength.

Is the brain we are born with filled with genes that contain our unique mental strength level (our mercury) and our unique emotional strength level (our moon)?

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Unread 05-14-2019, 05:09 AM
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

I'm not sure what you mean by "natural strength."

The moon gives your emotional nature, but it also symbolizes your home and experience of your mother.

Mercury gives thinking and communicating.

A sign shows how or in what manner a planet operates. Here it is helpful to look at the modalities (cardinal, fixed, mutable) and element (earth, air, fire, or water.) Mercury in Taurus, the fixed earth sign, would probably take a deliberate and practical approach to thinking through problems, for example.

A house shows where or in what type of activity the planet focuses.

A planet in the sign it rules (domicile) is usually extra strong. So one's emotional nature (moon) would be strong when in its own sign of Cancer.

In modern astrology we tend to look at aspects. A well-aspected planet functions more efficiently and easily than one involved in squares and oppositions, for example. In traditional western astrology you'd look more at essential dignities (like terms, exaltation or fall, &c)

Consider that someone might be born with a chart showing a lot of intellectual promise, and then have a serious head injury as a young child. You might have two "time twins" raised in very different circumstances that affect the child's emotional and mental development.

A birth chart is not a biography, but an indicator of potential.

So far there's not much of a marriage between genetics and neuroscience with astrology.
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  #3  
Unread 05-14-2019, 09:40 AM
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

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2. Recent shifts in astrological ideas
3. Dealing with criticism the astrological way
4. Problems with the three basic ideas of astrology
5. Problems with the origin of astrological ideas
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  #4  
Unread 05-14-2019, 08:44 PM
YonyGursho YonyGursho is offline
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

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I'm not sure what you mean by "natural strength."

The moon gives your emotional nature, but it also symbolizes your home and experience of your mother.

Mercury gives thinking and communicating.

A sign shows how or in what manner a planet operates. Here it is helpful to look at the modalities (cardinal, fixed, mutable) and element (earth, air, fire, or water.) Mercury in Taurus, the fixed earth sign, would probably take a deliberate and practical approach to thinking through problems, for example.

A house shows where or in what type of activity the planet focuses.

A planet in the sign it rules (domicile) is usually extra strong. So one's emotional nature (moon) would be strong when in its own sign of Cancer.

In modern astrology we tend to look at aspects. A well-aspected planet functions more efficiently and easily than one involved in squares and oppositions, for example. In traditional western astrology you'd look more at essential dignities (like terms, exaltation or fall, &c)

Consider that someone might be born with a chart showing a lot of intellectual promise, and then have a serious head injury as a young child. You might have two "time twins" raised in very different circumstances that affect the child's emotional and mental development.

A birth chart is not a biography, but an indicator of potential.

So far there's not much of a marriage between genetics and neuroscience with astrology.
Cancerian energy brings the moon heightened sensitivity. Surely the moon feels comfortable doing what it naturally is built to do, which is feel and create emotion/sensitivity/irrational thinking. Cancerian energy to the moon would only bring sensitivity to the moon in question, which is really bad in the real world when it comes to the hustle bustle situations to be dealt with out there, as clearly being emotionally weak and sensitive is only gonna do you bad and slow you down mentally in the real world.

Well the thing is, a chart showing intellectual promise wouldn't be one that would have the chart holder end up showing less intellectial strength than the chart is promising. This is because the natal chart is our fate, it is destiny that we cannot escape.
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Unread 05-14-2019, 09:57 PM
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

I don't take a deterministic, fatalistic view of astrology-- a concept that I find logically untenable.

Each planet, sign, and house has multiple interpretations and rulerships that are nevertheless consistent with the planets' &c core meanings. The key is to adopt empowering meanings vs. disempowering meanings.

For example, strong feelings are not necessarily a sign of weakness or irrationality. (Oh, except in some antiquated machismo playbook.) You've been in love once or twice, haven't you?

If I look at your horoscope, for example, the moon symbolizes your emotional nature, but it also says something about your home, as well as your experience of your mother and of mature women generally. It also says something about the house with Cancer on the cusp. If you are a gardener, you might plant and harvest by moon signs. In horary astrology, you'd see the moon as the major source of action-- or inaction-- in the chart. In medical astrology, the moon rules the stomach, pancreas, and female breasts and reproductive organs.

I could go on in this fashion, but hopefully I've given the main ideas.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 05-14-2019, 11:07 PM
YonyGursho YonyGursho is offline
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I don't take a deterministic, fatalistic view of astrology-- a concept that I find logically untenable.

Each planet, sign, and house has multiple interpretations and rulerships that are nevertheless consistent with the planets' &c core meanings. The key is to adopt empowering meanings vs. disempowering meanings.

For example, strong feelings are not necessarily a sign of weakness or irrationality. (Oh, except in some antiquated machismo playbook.) You've been in love once or twice, haven't you?

If I look at your horoscope, for example, the moon symbolizes your emotional nature, but it also says something about your home, as well as your experience of your mother and of mature women generally. It also says something about the house with Cancer on the cusp. If you are a gardener, you might plant and harvest by moon signs. In horary astrology, you'd see the moon as the major source of action-- or inaction-- in the chart. In medical astrology, the moon rules the stomach, pancreas, and female breasts and reproductive organs.

I could go on in this fashion, but hopefully I've given the main ideas.
Well you're misconstruing the meaning of cancer energy on the moon and what type of energy water brings to the moon entirely. The element that is Water is sensitivity, emotion, irrationality, and feeling. So thats exactly what cancer brings to ones moon/emotional state.
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Unread 05-15-2019, 05:03 AM
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

I'm not misconstruing anything. I've been studying astrology since 1990. How about you?

What I disagree with is your apparent concept that a Cancer moon is weak. It's not. Watery, yes. Weak, no, unless it's afflicted.

Are you familiar with the Astrodienst www.astrocom Astro-DataBank? You can pull up the charts of thousands of people, mostly celebrities, with Cancer moons.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 05-15-2019, 07:46 AM
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

Each planet, including Moon and Mercury, is replete with meanings. Ten planets contain, in their symbolism, everything in the universe.

People don't really change much over the years. The basic self remains the same, dusted over with a patina of experience. If we don't change then the meanings of the astrological symbols don't change either.

My Moon and what it symbolizes is mine for life. And I wouldn't have it any other way.
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  #9  
Unread 05-15-2019, 03:30 PM
YonyGursho YonyGursho is offline
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

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I'm not misconstruing anything. I've been studying astrology since 1990. How about you?

What I disagree with is your apparent concept that a Cancer moon is weak. It's not. Watery, yes. Weak, no, unless it's afflicted.

Are you familiar with the Astrodienst www.astrocom Astro-DataBank? You can pull up the charts of thousands of people, mostly celebrities, with Cancer moons.
It's not about how long you study something, but how you studied what you did that matters most. But if you must know, I studied modern astrology, as well as numerology, for 5 years straight.

That's wrong. Cancer is the sign of emotions and is the most emotional sign in the zodiac, also represents sensitivity and irrationality, therefore cancerian energy brings nothing but sensitivity and crybaby emotions to the moon in question. If you can't accept that much, then this "debate" if we can even call it that is going nowhere and would best be put off.

The only reason those people with cancer moon aren't complete crybabys is simply because they have one or more positive aspects to their natural crybaby moon (cancer moon).

Water is the element of sensitivity, emotions, and irrationality. No matter how you look at it. So I AM right. Sorry.
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Unread 05-15-2019, 05:16 PM
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

No, you're not right. And I began studying astrology in 1972, long before you were born.

Funny thing, but you will get a lot smarter once you stop thinking you're so smart.
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  #11  
Unread 05-15-2019, 06:33 PM
YonyGursho YonyGursho is offline
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

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No, you're not right. And I began studying astrology in 1972, long before you were born.

Funny thing, but you will get a lot smarter once you stop thinking you're so smart.
How ironic
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Unread 05-17-2019, 06:39 AM
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

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It's not about how long you study something, but how you studied what you did that matters most. But if you must know, I studied modern astrology, as well as numerology, for 5 years straight.

That's wrong. Cancer is the sign of emotions and is the most emotional sign in the zodiac, also represents sensitivity and irrationality, therefore cancerian energy brings nothing but sensitivity and crybaby emotions to the moon in question. If you can't accept that much, then this "debate" if we can even call it that is going nowhere and would best be put off.

The only reason those people with cancer moon aren't complete crybabys is simply because they have one or more positive aspects to their natural crybaby moon (cancer moon).

Water is the element of sensitivity, emotions, and irrationality. No matter how you look at it. So I AM right. Sorry.
Yony, I think you have a lot to learn about human nature. Remember that you're applying simplistic astrological descriptions to millions of real people of all ages, nationalities, genders, and life experiences.

To reduce a Cancer moon to "crybaby emotions" is ridiculous.

These people can be extremely nurturing and caring, in a way that makes other people feel completely looked-after and helped in the Cancer moon people's presence. The moon, among other things, is the sign of the mother, so think of how safe small children feel under the care and protection of a loving mother.

I wonder, from your posts, if you find emotions troublesome and difficult to deal with. You may be trying to disown your own emotional nature. (What Jungian astrologers call "shadow material.") When someone"splits" off unwanted personal attributes, s/he tends to paste them onto other people who seemingly embody the unwanted character traits.

There is certainly nothing "crybaby" about a Scorpio moon. Scorpio is unafraid of the darker sides of existence, and may even feel a compulsion to explore them. Scorpio tests itself against challenges and and barriers. Recall that Scorpio's planetary rulers are Mars (traditional) and Pluto (modern.)

A Pisces moon can be highly sensitive because they apprehend other people's emotional nature, even when the other person hasn't articulated how s/he feels. Pisces moons therefore tend to be highly intuitive, if not psychic in some regard.

It takes more than 5 years of study to really learn astrology, including a lot of chart-reading for other people in real time with real issues.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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Unread 05-17-2019, 02:18 PM
YonyGursho YonyGursho is offline
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

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Yony, I think you have a lot to learn about human nature. Remember that you're applying simplistic astrological descriptions to millions of real people of all ages, nationalities, genders, and life experiences.

To reduce a Cancer moon to "crybaby emotions" is ridiculous.

These people can be extremely nurturing and caring, in a way that makes other people feel completely looked-after and helped in the Cancer moon people's presence. The moon, among other things, is the sign of the mother, so think of how safe small children feel under the care and protection of a loving mother.

I wonder, from your posts, if you find emotions troublesome and difficult to deal with. You may be trying to disown your own emotional nature. (What Jungian astrologers call "shadow material.") When someone"splits" off unwanted personal attributes, s/he tends to paste them onto other people who seemingly embody the unwanted character traits.

There is certainly nothing "crybaby" about a Scorpio moon. Scorpio is unafraid of the darker sides of existence, and may even feel a compulsion to explore them. Scorpio tests itself against challenges and and barriers. Recall that Scorpio's planetary rulers are Mars (traditional) and Pluto (modern.)

A Pisces moon can be highly sensitive because they apprehend other people's emotional nature, even when the other person hasn't articulated how s/he feels. Pisces moons therefore tend to be highly intuitive, if not psychic in some regard.

It takes more than 5 years of study to really learn astrology, including a lot of chart-reading for other people in real time with real issues.
I'm sorry, but it seems that you somehow didn't understand anything I said.

Cancerian energy is the natural energy of the mother figure, this is why applying it to the moon (our way of nurturing, as it is how we feel and thus how we are sensitive to others needs) MUST bring only sensitivity to the moon. I'll say it again, the only reason those people aren't complete crybabys is because they don't just have cancer energy on their moon but other energys on it as well that enhance their emotional strength.

Just the basics of astrology tells you that much. So I'm guessing you are either in denial for whatever reason of the plain and simple facts, or just didn't understand what I said the first time.

Perhaps an analogy is what's needed here. Lets say I am tired after exercise. Then lets say I drink an energy drink and it recovers my energy. This is what is happening with the moon when aspects are added to it.

Moon in cancer has that cancer energy on it, but the POSITIVE aspects are like the energy drink, they add energy and STRENGTHEN the moon.

Sorry, but this is just an extremely simple concept, I honestly don't see how you aren't capable of getting it.

I will admit, I do dislike my own emotional nature, as my moon is actually terribly weak, however I have learned to tame it after years of living with it. However I didn't do what you're suggesting I may have did due to disliking my own emotions, though I do see why it could appear to be why.

Scorpio is just as sensitive, emotional and irrational a moon as pisces is if not even more so, just seeing as scorpio has mars and pluto, so a fire planet and a water planet, yet so does pisces, pisces has both jupiter and neptune, yet you even admit pisces is highly sensitive a sign and brings only sensitivity to the moon, why would it be any different with scorpio, if both scorpio and pisces both have one fire planet and one water planet?

Also, just talking from experience here, I can tell you right now, I have a pisces moon, and the neptunian energy of it has always made me so incredibly sensitive to the point where it's not even funny, I have always struggled in conversations and almost my entire life haven't had the ability to control my emotions well enough to hold a decent conversation with anyone other than my closest acquaintances. Only after years of having it am I now able to control it well enough to talk to strangers.

So you can only imagine how annoying and frustrating it is to hear anyone tell me that water on the moon doesnt only bring sensitivity. It's as frustrating as a poor person being told "being poor can't be tough" when it clearly is incredibly tough.

To make matters worse, I'm a BOY, AND I am and always have been straight, so being so naturally emotionally weak growing up was, as you can imagine, hell.

Lol obviously you pulled that out of your ***, there is nothing to say that it takes more than 5 years to 100% master astrology, everyone is different and has different paces at doing certain things, and has different situations. Stop.
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Unread 05-17-2019, 03:55 PM
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

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Originally Posted by YonyGursho View Post

......I'm sorry, but it seems that you somehow didn't understand anything I said.......

So I'm guessing you are either in denial for whatever reason of the plain and simple facts, or just didn't understand what I said the first time.

Lol....there is nothing to say that it takes more than 5 years to 100% master astrology.....
The thread also is talking about Mercury....Yony you have Mercury Combust:

QUOTE:
"Any planet which is in the same sign as the Sun, becomes “agitated”. Mercury is one’s ability to articulate verbally, communicate and make requests - but when with the Sun, there was some powerful authority figure in life, who disrespected the native's requests and usually interrupted or disregarded the native while talking....The Mercury Sun person more often would grow up with some confidence issues regarding expressing opinions and communicating....

The Mercury/Sun person can become very defensive when someone does not agree with his point of view or what he is saying and this will create frustrations in all most relationships....It is such a common combination and therefore human communications are often strained and a source of tension.

The Mercury/Sun person might also be someone who is not good at listening to what others have to say - subconsciously copying patterns that he has witnessed done to him when young- or he can be someone talking too much, and not very aware of the normal rules of communications."
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Unread 05-17-2019, 06:20 PM
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

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The thread also is talking about Mercury....Yony you have Mercury Combust:

QUOTE:
"Any planet which is in the same sign as the Sun, becomes “agitated”. Mercury is one’s ability to articulate verbally, communicate and make requests - but when with the Sun, there was some powerful authority figure in life, who disrespected the native's requests and usually interrupted or disregarded the native while talking....The Mercury Sun person more often would grow up with some confidence issues regarding expressing opinions and communicating....

The Mercury/Sun person can become very defensive when someone does not agree with his point of view or what he is saying and this will create frustrations in all most relationships....It is such a common combination and therefore human communications are often strained and a source of tension.

The Mercury/Sun person might also be someone who is not good at listening to what others have to say - subconsciously copying patterns that he has witnessed done to him when young- or he can be someone talking too much, and not very aware of the normal rules of communications."
It's true, I did grow up with an authority figure who didn't respect my requests. This makes sense, seeing as I have my saturn in my 1st house.
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Unread 05-17-2019, 08:43 PM
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

I don't know if waybread has completely abandoned this thread, but I'd like to continue to pick her brains if she is inclined to oblige.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by "natural strength."

The moon gives your emotional nature, but it also symbolizes your home and experience of your mother.

Mercury gives thinking and communicating.

A sign shows how or in what manner a planet operates. Here it is helpful to look at the modalities (cardinal, fixed, mutable) and element (earth, air, fire, or water.) Mercury in Taurus, the fixed earth sign, would probably take a deliberate and practical approach to thinking through problems, for example.

A house shows where or in what type of activity the planet focuses.

A planet in the sign it rules (domicile) is usually extra strong. So one's emotional nature (moon) would be strong when in its own sign of Cancer.

In modern astrology we tend to look at aspects. A well-aspected planet functions more efficiently and easily than one involved in squares and oppositions, for example. In traditional western astrology you'd look more at essential dignities (like terms, exaltation or fall, &c)

Consider that someone might be born with a chart showing a lot of intellectual promise, and then have a serious head injury as a young child. You might have two "time twins" raised in very different circumstances that affect the child's emotional and mental development.

A birth chart is not a biography, but an indicator of potential.

So far there's not much of a marriage between genetics and neuroscience with astrology.
Wouldn't a head injury or other modification of potential ('modification' used loosely...) also be indicated somewhere in the horoscope, and therefore the planetary placement remains a descriptor rather than indicator?

I don't mean to tread this into fatalism territory (otherwise I would have said 'determiner'), just trying to tease apart your view on the limits of interpretation within the context of Yony's question.
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Unread 05-17-2019, 09:27 PM
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

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Originally Posted by Flapjacks View Post
I don't know if waybread has completely abandoned this thread, but I'd like to continue to pick her brains if she is inclined to oblige.



Wouldn't a head injury or other modification of potential ('modification' used loosely...) also be indicated somewhere in the horoscope, and therefore the planetary placement remains a descriptor rather than indicator?

I don't mean to tread this into fatalism territory (otherwise I would have said 'determiner'), just trying to tease apart your view on the limits of interpretation within the context of Yony's question.
If someone's moon (their emotions) is opposite their mercury (their mind) and they weren't born with a mental disease, you could say that both before and after they had the mental disease their mind was indeed at odds with their emotions.

This means no matter what, every natal configuration in our charts remains true, no matter how we change as people.
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Unread 05-18-2019, 07:20 AM
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

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Originally Posted by Flapjacks View Post
I don't know if waybread has completely abandoned this thread, but I'd like to continue to pick her brains if she is inclined to oblige.



Wouldn't a head injury or other modification of potential ('modification' used loosely...) also be indicated somewhere in the horoscope, and therefore the planetary placement remains a descriptor rather than indicator?

I don't mean to tread this into fatalism territory (otherwise I would have said 'determiner'), just trying to tease apart your view on the limits of interpretation within the context of Yony's question.
I think you could pick up a child's head injury by looking at transits and progressions for a young child. This process would turn a simple natal chart reading into a far more involved process, however, if you looked at transits and progressions over a lifetime, even for a young person.

Also, while you might pick up a "blow to the head" for someone at, say, age 3; in a blind chart reading (vs. a post-hoc reading for a known person) you might have difficulty in saying how it affected the person.

Sometimes the difficulties in a chart reading are not in tracking planetary movements, but are in correctly intuiting how they affected the individual.

Medical astrology is not an exact science. I was just looking at a medical horary on another forum, and the querent indicated a lifetime of trouble with her current condition. Yet the indicators seemed to suggest that it was temporary. Possibly the chart timing was off, which is something else to consider in making highly fatalistic readings of what might be erroneous data.
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Unread 05-18-2019, 07:23 AM
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

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Originally Posted by YonyGursho View Post
If someone's moon (their emotions) is opposite their mercury (their mind) and they weren't born with a mental disease, you could say that both before and after they had the mental disease their mind was indeed at odds with their emotions.

This means no matter what, every natal configuration in our charts remains true, no matter how we change as people.
This is fascinating. My moon opposes my Mercury. That Ph. D. I got in 1977 must have been a fluke. What "mental disease" would you think I have?
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 05-18-2019, 07:52 AM
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

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Originally Posted by Inline View Post
The thread also is talking about Mercury....Yony you have Mercury Combust:

QUOTE:
"Any planet which is in the same sign as the Sun, becomes “agitated”. Mercury is one’s ability to articulate verbally, communicate and make requests - but when with the Sun, there was some powerful authority figure in life, who disrespected the native's requests and usually interrupted or disregarded the native while talking....The Mercury Sun person more often would grow up with some confidence issues regarding expressing opinions and communicating....

The Mercury/Sun person can become very defensive when someone does not agree with his point of view or what he is saying and this will create frustrations in all most relationships....It is such a common combination and therefore human communications are often strained and a source of tension.

The Mercury/Sun person might also be someone who is not good at listening to what others have to say - subconsciously copying patterns that he has witnessed done to him when young- or he can be someone talking too much, and not very aware of the normal rules of communications."
Given Yony's response to my posts, I'm inclined to agree with you!

In modern natal astrology combustion is not such an issue, the way it is in traditional western and in horary astrology. Rather, because the sun gives one's identity or sense of self, I would say that the Mercury conjunct sun person identifies (sun) with his intelligence (Mercury.)

Of course, this can be for better or worse.

Yony, I understood perfectly what you said. It was pretty simple. I just truly disagree with it. I think you're badly mistaken, both about astrology and human nature.

You seem to be very uncomfortable with the realm of human emotions. I read what you wrote but still wonder why. Is your moon afflicted? My daughter has a Pisces moon and she is extremely creative and perceptive.

My son's moon is in Scorpio. He played football and rugby in highschool and A-level rugby at his university; when he also worked as a night club bouncer. This is Mars-Pluto for you, not some kind of watery crybaby.

Your disowning your moon will affect your ability to read "watery" charts for people who don't happen to share your horror of our feeling natures.

The threat of being called a "crybaby" really offends you in some profound way. You've mentioned it a lot. The idea of the Mother as a wise and caring authority figure doesn't sit well with you. The idea of Cancer as a nurturing presence doesn't appeal to you. I wonder why.

Did you grow up in a highly patriarchal society or family? It sure looks like it. No need to perpetrate this type of gender-bias in your astrological awareness, however.

You don't mention that water also is the element of spirituality. (Possibly in relation to Jupiter's traditional rulership of Pisces.)

The moon traditionally rules liquids but your "energy drink" analogy has nothing to do with the essential meaning of water in the horoscope.

You might think about ways to productively express your feeling nature-- such as through the arts. People with the moon in Pisces are often good dancers, even with no formal lessons. Pisces rules the feet, and they can just feel the music.

I'd be curious to learn what you think about Stephen Arroyo's book on Astrology, Psychology, and the Four elements. He basically brought the ancient Aristotelian elements to modern psychological astrology in the 1970s. Or what about Dorian Greenbaum's book, Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key, which is a traditional astrologers' look at the 4 elements?

Being belligerent doesn't substantiate your points.
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Last edited by waybread; 05-18-2019 at 08:01 AM.
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  #21  
Unread 05-18-2019, 06:35 PM
YonyGursho YonyGursho is offline
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

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This is fascinating. My moon opposes my Mercury. That Ph. D. I got in 1977 must have been a fluke. What "mental disease" would you think I have?
Not necessarily, you can still earn a PH. D. if you have a mental disease, it just can't be one of the most severe ones, those just make it impossible to think rationally and logically, so much so that speech is almost impossible for those who have it, a less severe mental disease is what you must have had if you even had a mental disease when you got the PH. D.

Still, you don't necessarily have to have a mental disease if your moon is opposite your mercury, it can just be that certain outside factors cause your emotions to be at odds with your mind/thinking. So you may not have even had a mental disease when you earned your PH. D.

Remember, every natal configuration a chart holder has always stands true to themselves, no matter how their life changes.
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  #22  
Unread 05-18-2019, 07:15 PM
YonyGursho YonyGursho is offline
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Given Yony's response to my posts, I'm inclined to agree with you!

In modern natal astrology combustion is not such an issue, the way it is in traditional western and in horary astrology. Rather, because the sun gives one's identity or sense of self, I would say that the Mercury conjunct sun person identifies (sun) with his intelligence (Mercury.)

Of course, this can be for better or worse.

Yony, I understood perfectly what you said. It was pretty simple. I just truly disagree with it. I think you're badly mistaken, both about astrology and human nature.

You seem to be very uncomfortable with the realm of human emotions. I read what you wrote but still wonder why. Is your moon afflicted? My daughter has a Pisces moon and she is extremely creative and perceptive.

My son's moon is in Scorpio. He played football and rugby in highschool and A-level rugby at his university; when he also worked as a night club bouncer. This is Mars-Pluto for you, not some kind of watery crybaby.

Your disowning your moon will affect your ability to read "watery" charts for people who don't happen to share your horror of our feeling natures.

The threat of being called a "crybaby" really offends you in some profound way. You've mentioned it a lot. The idea of the Mother as a wise and caring authority figure doesn't sit well with you. The idea of Cancer as a nurturing presence doesn't appeal to you. I wonder why.

Did you grow up in a highly patriarchal society or family? It sure looks like it. No need to perpetrate this type of gender-bias in your astrological awareness, however.

You don't mention that water also is the element of spirituality. (Possibly in relation to Jupiter's traditional rulership of Pisces.)

The moon traditionally rules liquids but your "energy drink" analogy has nothing to do with the essential meaning of water in the horoscope.

You might think about ways to productively express your feeling nature-- such as through the arts. People with the moon in Pisces are often good dancers, even with no formal lessons. Pisces rules the feet, and they can just feel the music.

I'd be curious to learn what you think about Stephen Arroyo's book on Astrology, Psychology, and the Four elements. He basically brought the ancient Aristotelian elements to modern psychological astrology in the 1970s. Or what about Dorian Greenbaum's book, Temperament: Astrology's Forgotten Key, which is a traditional astrologers' look at the 4 elements?

Being belligerent doesn't substantiate your points.
My moon is indeed afflicted. It squares my midheaven, conjuncts my ASC, is opposite my ceres, semi-square my uranus, sesqui-quadrate my Pallas, there is only one other aspect it has and its a good one, sextile my neptune.

Your daughter must have a mostly unnafflicted moon, or a completely unafflicted moon then. Same thing with your son.

I grew up in a normal family. I simply have always been very sensitive naturally, and wasn't able to toughen up my emotional strength until my late teen years.

I would argue that water isn't the element of spirituality but fire is, seeing as spritiuality = religion, and religion is formed by freedom of thought, thats what fire is. Air is order of thought (logic). Earth is structure and practicality, water is imagination and impracticality. Earth is organization and tideyness, Water is messiness and abstractness.

Last edited by YonyGursho; 05-18-2019 at 07:27 PM.
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  #23  
Unread 05-19-2019, 05:19 AM
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waybread waybread is offline
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

Yony, is your objective to make up astrology as you go along, or are you interested in learning what has been written about it by practicing astrologers with far more experience than you have? (Like for the last 2000 years, or at least, for the past 60.) Your own lens and life experience have merit, but you cannot substitute them for the established body of knowledge out there.

You cannot just make up the meaning of the elements as you go along, unless you plan to practice some kind of astrology that is so idiosyncratic that you have a "school" of one.

You might read Stephen Arroyo's book on the 4 elements. I think it's still in print. Basically he talks about what seems very real to people with an emphasis on each of the elements.

Air: ideas are very real
Water: feelings are very real
Fire: Action, enthusiasm
Earth: material things

Traditional astrology identified 4 personality types: sanguine (air,) choleric (fire,) melancholic (earth,) and phlegmatic (water.)

When you combine the elements in this way with the signs' modalities (cardinal, fixed, mutable) then the signs begin to make a lot more sense. For example, Pisces is the mutable water sign, meaning that it operates primarily through feelings and is very adaptable or flexible. Taurus is the fixed earth sign, hence its reputation for being stubborn (fixed) and oriented towards material things.

You wrote:

Quote:
I have a pisces moon, and the neptunian energy of it has always made me so incredibly sensitive to the point where it's not even funny, I have always struggled in conversations and almost my entire life haven't had the ability to control my emotions well enough to hold a decent conversation with anyone other than my closest acquaintances. Only after years of having it am I now able to control it well enough to talk to strangers.

....

To make matters worse, I'm a BOY, AND I am and always have been straight, so being so naturally emotionally weak growing up was, as you can imagine, hell.
If your early life experience consisted of being so sensitive that you feared meeting strangers, and got viciously taunted for being a "crybaby," you have my sympathy. At the same time, these are not typical experiences of watery moons, so you cannot generalize from your personal experience to roughly 1/4 of the world's population with water moon signs.

Do you want to post your chart?

What astrology books or sites are you reading?

I do use asteroids-- judiciously. There are thousands of them out there, and by the time you're using them with minor aspects they tend to turn into so much space junk. Normally I stick with the conjunction to an actual planet. (There are some exceptions like namesake asteroids in synastry.)

What do you mean by "mental disease"? You seem to have some archaic ideas about mental health.

My daughter's Pisces moon opposes her Virgo sun and Mercury. So technically it's afflicted. She's 34. I think it's fair to call her sensitive, but she doesn't have a "mental disease."
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #24  
Unread 05-19-2019, 05:59 PM
YonyGursho YonyGursho is offline
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Yony, is your objective to make up astrology as you go along, or are you interested in learning what has been written about it by practicing astrologers with far more experience than you have? (Like for the last 2000 years, or at least, for the past 60.) Your own lens and life experience have merit, but you cannot substitute them for the established body of knowledge out there.

You cannot just make up the meaning of the elements as you go along, unless you plan to practice some kind of astrology that is so idiosyncratic that you have a "school" of one.

You might read Stephen Arroyo's book on the 4 elements. I think it's still in print. Basically he talks about what seems very real to people with an emphasis on each of the elements.

Air: ideas are very real
Water: feelings are very real
Fire: Action, enthusiasm
Earth: material things

Traditional astrology identified 4 personality types: sanguine (air,) choleric (fire,) melancholic (earth,) and phlegmatic (water.)

When you combine the elements in this way with the signs' modalities (cardinal, fixed, mutable) then the signs begin to make a lot more sense. For example, Pisces is the mutable water sign, meaning that it operates primarily through feelings and is very adaptable or flexible. Taurus is the fixed earth sign, hence its reputation for being stubborn (fixed) and oriented towards material things.

You wrote:



If your early life experience consisted of being so sensitive that you feared meeting strangers, and got viciously taunted for being a "crybaby," you have my sympathy. At the same time, these are not typical experiences of watery moons, so you cannot generalize from your personal experience to roughly 1/4 of the world's population with water moon signs.

Do you want to post your chart?

What astrology books or sites are you reading?

I do use asteroids-- judiciously. There are thousands of them out there, and by the time you're using them with minor aspects they tend to turn into so much space junk. Normally I stick with the conjunction to an actual planet. (There are some exceptions like namesake asteroids in synastry.)

What do you mean by "mental disease"? You seem to have some archaic ideas about mental health.

My daughter's Pisces moon opposes her Virgo sun and Mercury. So technically it's afflicted. She's 34. I think it's fair to call her sensitive, but she doesn't have a "mental disease."
- "Air: ideas are very real
Water: feelings are very real
Fire: Action, enthusiasm
Earth: material things"

I agree, but how does this prove that fire isn't religion? Jupiter is the planet of religion after all, and jupiter is a fire planet.

Again, for the second time I'll say it: these are not typical experiences of water moons because they have mostly positive aspected moons or completely positive aspected moons. I have a very rare water moon, one with only one positive aspect, the rest are negative aspects. So I have no idea what you're talking about or why it's so hard to understand what I'm saying, when it's actually very simple.

I'll post my chart in my next comment.

I've already explained what I meant about mental diseases very simply, not sure what it is that's confusing.

Last edited by YonyGursho; 05-19-2019 at 06:20 PM.
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  #25  
Unread 05-19-2019, 06:21 PM
YonyGursho YonyGursho is offline
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Re: Questions about the natal moon and mercury

Here you go
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