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  #51  
Unread 08-31-2013, 01:40 AM
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Re: Feral Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
tsmall may we clarify for interested readers
that since 3rd Day of the Moon is Day 4 of Infant's Life
AND IF
OP natal chart - i.e. Day 1 of Infant's Life - shows Moon at 5 Aquarius 38' 36
THEN
by Day 4 of Infant's Life Moon would be definitely Pisces
and not Aquarius as shown in posted chart
JMO you appear to have labelled the OP natal chart in error as 3rd Day of the Moon
Well, then perhaps this must be one of those human programming errors. One of the many interesting techniques I have/had yet to understand in the Delphic Oracle software is the ability to cast charts for the 3rd, 7th, and 40th day of the Moon. These charts are taken from the software.

Interesting. I wonder if, since the developer takes his equations straight from Valens' Anthologies, there were differences in text translations that would produce such an error?

Vettius Valens, Anthologies, Book 1

Quote:
15K;14P. The Third, Seventh, and Fortieth Days of the Moon.

The third, seventh, and fortieth days of the moon as follows: assume the moon is in Scorpio 7*; the third day will be in Sagittarius 7*. [It is necessary to investigate the day in this way. Sagittarius 7* has become the 3rd day.] In the nativity chart the seventh will be found in square, at Aquarius 7*. The fortieth will be at Taurus 7*. (Some add 160* to the moon's position at birth and count off this amount from the moon's sign. Others add to the moon's position at birth <its positions> on the third and seventh and fortieth days, then after calculating, they interpret the moon at those places.)
Valens goes on to describe

Quote:
In general they note the fortunate, unfortunate, and average nativities according to the third, seventh, and fortieth days: if these locations are beheld by benefics in operative places, and not by malefics, then you can predict exceedingly great good fortune. If two of these locations are beheld by benefics and one by malefics, then you can predict average fortune. If three are beheld by malefics, with the benefics turned away, then predict misfortune. If the situation is mixed, say "average."
Since this is the Riley pdf of Anthologies, and Valens (who it admittedly gives me a headache to read) Bob's explanation should allow us to conclude that when Valens says fortune, he is talking about health.

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Last edited by tsmall; 08-31-2013 at 02:16 AM.
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  #52  
Unread 08-31-2013, 04:31 AM
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Re: Feral Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Well, then perhaps this must be one of those human programming errors. One of the many interesting techniques I have/had yet to understand in the Delphic Oracle software is the ability to cast charts for the 3rd, 7th, and 40th day of the Moon. These charts are taken from the software.

Interesting. I wonder if, since the developer takes his equations straight from Valens' Anthologies, there were differences in text translations that would produce such an error?

Vettius Valens, Anthologies, Book 1



Valens goes on to describe



Since this is the Riley pdf of Anthologies, and Valens (who it admittedly gives me a headache to read) Bob's explanation should allow us to conclude that when Valens says fortune, he is talking about health.
Holy cow, no wonder you're confused.

15K;14P. The Third, Seventh, and Fortieth Days of the Moon.

The third, seventh, and fortieth days of the moon as follows: assume the moon is in Scorpio 7*; the third day will be in Sagittarius 7*. [It is necessary to investigate the day in this way. Sagittarius 7* has become the 3rd day.] In the nativity chart the seventh will be found in square, at Aquarius 7*. The fortieth will be at Taurus 7*. (Some add 160* to the moon's position at birth and count off this amount from the moon's sign. Others add to the moon's position at birth <its positions> on the third and seventh and fortieth days, then after calculating, they interpret the moon at those places.)


That makes absolutely no sense at all.

It looks like he's copying it from something, but he doesn't understand it.

From 7 Scorpio to 7 Sagittarius, all he's done is add 30 to the Moon's original Longitude, or 10 per day. The Moon averages 1312' per day, getting to just over 15 but never slower than 1148' per day, so what he's doing isn't based on Moon's speed or a Transiting Moon.

That becomes clearer when he says on the 7th Day the Moon is in square at 7 Aquarius, and then again the 40th Day at 7 Taurus.

I thought maybe he was using Profections, but that doesn't work either. You can profect by month, moving one Sign for each month. You can also profect daily at 1 Sign every 2 and a half days or so.

It's a bit of a stretch to think he's profecting the Moon daily. Rounding 2.5 days up to 3 days, yes that would be 1 Sign. It falls apart there, since he'd be adding 1 Sign for every 2 days to get to a square position.

40 Days would be 16 Signs @ 2.5 Days per Sign, but that would put Daily Profected Moon in Pisces, not Taurus. Even rounding to 3, that would make 13 Signs. Rounding down to 2 Days per Sign gives 20 Signs, and in no case do you end up at Taurus.

Moon is specifically profected to examine Health matters. In fact, I believe it was Valens who said that (not to mention that Mars/Moon Primary Directions are very negative, especially for health and life).

Anyway, the way Valens explains it makes no sense to me, not to mention it would be demonstrably wrong. For me, adding 30 puts Moon in the 6th Aries 6th House with enemy Mars, which isn't even remotely descriptive of my first 3 years on Earth (but Transiting Moon exalted in Taurus would be).
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  #53  
Unread 08-31-2013, 04:42 AM
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Re: Feral Planets

Seems to me that Valens might be talking about the "Duodenary of the Moon" technique, later elaborated by Porphyry (and others), or some variation of it: the "Duodenary of the Moon" was a common technique in Hellenist times (according to Gould et al)...
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  #54  
Unread 08-31-2013, 05:11 AM
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Re: Feral Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
Holy cow, no wonder you're confused.
It doesn't help being mathematically challenged. And to think I questioned my high school trig teacher about what possible purpose advanced math would serve me in life.

Ok, let's skip Valens. The charts in Oracle are auto-derivative charts. The birth date is July 7th, and the day three chart is cast for the exact same time on July 9th. The 7th is the first day, the 8th is the second day, so the 9th would be the third day of life. Are we having a counting problem? Or is the chart cast improperly?


All the charts are cast for the exact moment of the nativity on the 3rd, 7th, and 40th days of the nativity if we count the date of birth as day one. So, correct or not?
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  #55  
Unread 08-31-2013, 09:06 AM
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Re: Feral Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
It doesn't help being mathematically challenged. And to think I questioned my high school trig teacher about what possible purpose advanced math would serve me in life.

Ok, let's skip Valens. The charts in Oracle are auto-derivative charts. The birth date is July 7th, and the day three chart is cast for the exact same time on July 9th. The 7th is the first day, the 8th is the second day, so the 9th would be the third day of life. Are we having a counting problem? Or is the chart cast improperly?


All the charts are cast for the exact moment of the nativity on the 3rd, 7th, and 40th days of the nativity if we count the date of birth as day one. So, correct or not?
tsmall, I'm highlighting that in order to note any differences between the two charts under discussion that you attached
then
there needs to be a difference to note
- and there clearly is none

Yet one is the OP natal chart

and ORACLE software claims that

the other is the 3rd Day of the Moon chart

Since the 3rd Day of the Moon chart
traditionally highlights/considers/homes in on the location of the transiting Moon 3 days after the Nativity

THEN

the natal Moon location
as illustrated by the natal chart

MUST differ from the location of the transiting Moon 3 days AFTER the birth

as illustrated by the 3rd Day of the Moon chart

HOWEVER

since you have explained that the 'Days of the Moon' charts you posted are all auto-derivative charts using Oracle software

THEN

EITHER

it's a software glitch

OR

it's a data input problem

ALTERNATIVELY

it's a Valens glitch as dr. farr has surmised




Attached Images
File Type: jpg OP FERAL SUN QUESTION.jpg (68.0 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg ALLEGEDLY 3RD DAY OF THE MOON.jpg (63.2 KB, 3 views)
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  #56  
Unread 08-31-2013, 10:36 AM
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Re: Feral Planets

Delphic Oracle is correct (for the 3rd day). They (the ancients) counted the day of birth as one just as they did with all levels of profections and as Valens does with his Quarters of the Moon technique. It looks like Tsmall has incorrectly posted the natal chart as the 3rd day of the Moon chart, as Jupiter ASC has suggested.

As for Valens quote, it is quite clear he is just illustarting an idealised version of the technique in which the Moon is moving 15 degrees a day. This is, in part, so we understand that the day of birth is one, and therefore the 3rd day is two calendar days and not three. If we write his example out by hand, we see that the 2nd calendar day falls at 7 Sagittarius, the 6th calendar day at 7 Aquarius. The comment about 7 Taurus being the 40th day seems to be a different idea. In the charts I have looked at, the 40th day Moon (39th calendar day as we would count it in our time) falls out at the sign opposed to the natal Moon though sometimes in a diffierent sign if the natal Moon is close to a sign boundary. I am also not sure we are to take only the transiting Moon since Valens says that someone with a malefic or Mercury with the 40th day Moon suffers a violent death, this would mean that everyone with the Moon opposed to a malefic at birth will have an indication of a violent death. I feel we may have to use the whole chart but then this brings up the problem of clock time and what time do these new charts begin at. I would suggest that they be converted into a more natural time system and set for the 3rd, 7th and 40th day of this time rather than modern clock time.

EDIT: sorry I forgot to mention the 160 degree figure given by Valens, if we multiply 13.2 degrees (Moon's mean motion according to a period of 27.3 days)by 39 (40th day), we get 515 (360 + 155 degrees), hence Valens saying some just add 160 degrees to the Moon's natal position.

Also, ignore what I said above about the opposition, DO has been programmed correctly for the 3rd day but not the 7th or 40th for some reason.

Last edited by Konrad; 08-31-2013 at 11:01 AM.
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  #57  
Unread 08-31-2013, 12:46 PM
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Re: Feral Planets

Yep, sorry, I've been such a dullard. Reading Valens again, he proposes that you use the ideal of the adjacent sign/square sign/opposition sign respectively. He then says that others use the actual 3rd, 7th and 40th days of the Moon. It is the old ideal vs. actual debate! If you use the actual, obviously you would count the day of birth as "one" as there was no zero in ancient mathematics and every other time-lord system counts the beginning point as one and not zero.

I asked Curtis Manwarring about the DO calculation and he said he wanted it to follow the Valens ideal version of adjacent/square/opposition and the only way to do this was to count 2 calendar days/7 calendar days/40 calendar days hence the seemingly mixed together methods of ancient and modern counting.
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  #58  
Unread 08-31-2013, 01:01 PM
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Re: Feral Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post


since you have explained that the 'Days of the Moon' charts you posted are all auto-derivative charts using Oracle software

THEN

EITHER

it's a software glitch

OR

it's a data input problem

ALTERNATIVELY

it's a Valens glitch as dr. farr has surmised




Either that, or what happened. In that I inadvertenly saved the base chart a second time.
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File Type: jpg 3rd day of Moon.jpg (182.0 KB, 1 views)
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  #59  
Unread 08-31-2013, 01:24 PM
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Re: Feral Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Yep, sorry, I've been such a dullard. Reading Valens again, he proposes that you use the ideal of the adjacent sign/square sign/opposition sign respectively. He then says that others use the actual 3rd, 7th and 40th days of the Moon. It is the old ideal vs. actual debate! If you use the actual, obviously you would count the day of birth as "one" as there was no zero in ancient mathematics and every other time-lord system counts the beginning point as one and not zero.

I asked Curtis Manwarring about the DO calculation and he said he wanted it to follow the Valens ideal version of adjacent/square/opposition and the only way to do this was to count 2 calendar days/7 calendar days/40 calendar days hence the seemingly mixed together methods of ancient and modern counting.
Konrad, thank you for clearing that up!

One thing interesting to note (now that I have attached the correct 3rd day chart ) is that even though Curtis was trying to show the Moon in the ideal adjacent/square/opposition, in these charts the Moon is in the same sign on the third day, sextile on the 7th, and averse on the 40th.

The charts are all transit charts cast for the time of birth on the chosen days. I did test this by simply creating a new chart for such a time in the natal location on the calendar date shown in each chart and it is identical to the software chart. Note that the positions of the planets moves in each, as does the ASC.

For the sake of clarity and education then, what we want to look at using this method are transit charts for the days in question, which anyone can do, and it only remains to determine where to start the counting of days?
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  #60  
Unread 08-31-2013, 01:35 PM
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Re: Feral Planets

Yeah, he does say that he actually wanted to take the option out as it doesn't work the way he wanted it to but was worried about people getting annoyed at that. He told me he may redo the whole thing at a later date. He claims that the ancients looked only at the Moon, and not the whole chart, so I may be wrong with wanting to look at the full chart. It is the usual problem of isolating factors, and seeing what is doing what.

As for where to start, for me there really isn't any question of where to count from as the ancients would always have counted the day of birth as "one", just as they did with all levels of profections. When Valens (or anyone) says XYZ happened in the 40th year, the native would be 39 years old by our reckoning. For me being born in 1984, my 40th year would be 2023 when I am 39 years old to everyone living now.
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  #61  
Unread 08-31-2013, 03:20 PM
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Re: Feral Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Yeah, he does say that he actually wanted to take the option out as it doesn't work the way he wanted it to but was worried about people getting annoyed at that. He told me he may redo the whole thing at a later date. He claims that the ancients looked only at the Moon, and not the whole chart, so I may be wrong with wanting to look at the full chart. It is the usual problem of isolating factors, and seeing what is doing what.

As for where to start, for me there really isn't any question of where to count from as the ancients would always have counted the day of birth as "one", just as they did with all levels of profections. When Valens (or anyone) says XYZ happened in the 40th year, the native would be 39 years old by our reckoning. For me being born in 1984, my 40th year would be 2023 when I am 39 years old to everyone living now.

IF birth is symbolically 'zero point ex utero'

then the Ascendant is symbolically zero point on the Aging Timepiece

Then moments pass, then seconds, then minutes, followed by hours, days, weeks, months

Until the infant officially celebrates their first birthday and 'is 1'.



So then, using that particular form of reckoning,

1 = beginning of 2nd whole sign house and so on around the natal chart

- as shown by the attached illustration



Attached Images
File Type: jpg PROFECTION YEARS.jpg (115.3 KB, 5 views)
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  #62  
Unread 08-31-2013, 10:16 PM
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Re: Feral Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
It doesn't help being mathematically challenged. And to think I questioned my high school trig teacher about what possible purpose advanced math would serve me in life.
Uh, I failed trig. I had to drop the course in order to remain eligible to play football my senior year (that wasn't Ohio High School Athletic Association rules, that was our school district's rules).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Ok, let's skip Valens. The charts in Oracle are auto-derivative charts. The birth date is July 7th, and the day three chart is cast for the exact same time on July 9th. The 7th is the first day, the 8th is the second day, so the 9th would be the third day of life. Are we having a counting problem? Or is the chart cast improperly?

All the charts are cast for the exact moment of the nativity on the 3rd, 7th, and 40th days of the nativity if we count the date of birth as day one. So, correct or not?
The software is wrong.

The software should progress, direct, transit the Moon, not cast new charts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
tsmall, I'm highlighting that in order to note any differences between the two charts under discussion that you attached
then
there needs to be a difference to note
- and there clearly is none

Yet one is the OP natal chart

and ORACLE software claims that

the other is the 3rd Day of the Moon chart

Since the 3rd Day of the Moon chart
traditionally highlights/considers/homes in on the location of the transiting Moon 3 days after the Nativity

THEN

the natal Moon location
as illustrated by the natal chart

MUST differ from the location of the transiting Moon 3 days AFTER the birth

as illustrated by the 3rd Day of the Moon chart

HOWEVER

since you have explained that the 'Days of the Moon' charts you posted are all auto-derivative charts using Oracle software

THEN

EITHER

it's a software glitch

OR

it's a data input problem

ALTERNATIVELY

it's a Valens glitch as dr. farr has surmised

I vote for Glitch. Glitch would make a wonderful president or prime minister of some hapless country.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Yep, sorry, I've been such a dullard. Reading Valens again, he proposes that you use the ideal of the adjacent sign/square sign/opposition sign respectively. He then says that others use the actual 3rd, 7th and 40th days of the Moon. It is the old ideal vs. actual debate! If you use the actual, obviously you would count the day of birth as "one" as there was no zero in ancient mathematics and every other time-lord system counts the beginning point as one and not zero.
"Robert Kaplan, author of The Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero and former professor of mathematics at Harvard University, provides this answer:

The first evidence we have of zero is from the Sumerian culture in Mesopotamia, some 5,000 years ago."

Well, there you go. Glad we got that cleared up.

The short story is this.....some idiot noticed that ancient civilizations did not write Zero exactly like we do as '0'....therefore, ancient civilizations did not have Zero and didn't know what it was.

That is really bad logic, not to mention completely erroneous, but once disinformation or misinformation gets taught in a culture, it is almost impossible to eradicate.

The symbol we use for zero --- '0'--- did not come into universal formal use until about the 7th Century of this Era.

Zero was most certainly used in mathematics from the most ancient times ever, but, there was no standardized formalized '0' as a universal alphanumeric character.

In other words, Zero was like the letter "a" meaning that every culture had their own variation a ā ă ą ǽ (and I forgot the German "a" with the umlaut). Just as some cultures have more than one alphanumeric symbol for the letter 'a' --- like Romania 'a' ....'ă'...'' ---some cultures also had more than one alphanumeric symbol for Zero, and the exact symbol used depended on the function of Zero as they were using it, so that one symbol for Zero was used as a place-holder, another symbol used for fractional numbers, and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
The charts are all transit charts cast for the time of birth on the chosen days. I did test this by simply creating a new chart for such a time in the natal location on the calendar date shown in each chart and it is identical to the software chart. Note that the positions of the planets moves in each, as does the ASC.

For the sake of clarity and education then, what we want to look at using this method are transit charts for the days in question, which anyone can do, and it only remains to determine where to start the counting of days?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Yeah, he does say that he actually wanted to take the option out as it doesn't work the way he wanted it to but was worried about people getting annoyed at that. He told me he may redo the whole thing at a later date. He claims that the ancients looked only at the Moon, and not the whole chart, so I may be wrong with wanting to look at the full chart. It is the usual problem of isolating factors, and seeing what is doing what.

As for where to start, for me there really isn't any question of where to count from as the ancients would always have counted the day of birth as "one", just as they did with all levels of profections. When Valens (or anyone) says XYZ happened in the 40th year, the native would be 39 years old by our reckoning. For me being born in 1984, my 40th year would be 2023 when I am 39 years old to everyone living now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
So then, using that particular form of reckoning,

1 = beginning of 2nd whole sign house and so on around the natal chart

- as shown by the attached illustration
I can't believe you people made me go read Valens.

My text is formatted differently, so I don't have corresponding page numbers, but this is what Valens says....

/176/ For forecasts of dangers to health, diseases, bleeding, or the mother, we will start with the moon.

Bearing that in mind...

What colostrum lacks in volume it makes up for in power. Some people refer to colostrum as "high octane" milk. It's full of antibodies and immunoglobulins, which not only help protect newborns as they come into our world of bacteria and viruses, but also has a laxative effect that helps them expel the tarry first stools called meconium.

http://www.babycenter.com/404_whats-colostrum_8896.bc

Colostrum is extremely easy to digest, and is therefore the perfect first food for your baby. It is low in volume (measurable in teaspoons rather than ounces), but high in concentrated nutrition for the newborn. Colostrum has a laxative effect on the baby, helping him pass his early stools, which aids in the excretion of excess bilirubin and helps prevent jaundice. When your baby is breastfed early and often, your breasts will begin producing mature milk around the third or fourth day after birth.

Colostrum has an especially important role to play in the baby's gastrointestinal tract. A newborn's intestines are very permeable. Colostrum seals the holes by "painting" the gastrointestinal tract with a barrier which mostly prevents foreign substances from penetrating and possibly sensitizing a baby to foods the mother has eaten.
Colostrum also contains high concentrations of leukocytes, protective white cells which can destroy disease-causing bacteria and viruses.


http://www.llli.org/faq/colostrum.html


Infant Stomach Capacity




Colostrum is high in carbohydrates, high in protein, high in antibodies, and low in fat (as human newborns may find fat difficult to digest). Newborns have very small digestive systems, and colostrum delivers its nutrients in a very concentrated low-volume form.

It has a mild laxative effect, encouraging the passing of the baby's first stool, which is called meconium.

This clears excess bilirubin, a waste product of dead red blood cells which is produced in large quantities at birth due to blood volume reduction, from the infant's body and helps prevent jaundice.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/c/colostrum.htm


Okay, let's put this together.

Valens is copying from older sources (like Dorotheus --although Dorotheus is not that much older).

Romans counted differently than other contemporary cultures did.

3 Days is 3 Days. Add 3 to birth date eg July 10 + 3 = July 13; May 26 + 3 = May 29 and so on.

This is medical health only, as it relates to infant/mother's health and not about the Native's misery or fortune in life or anything else....once again...

/176/ For forecasts of dangers to health, diseases, bleeding, or the mother, we will start with the moon.

...at least he got that part right.

So....(I called my mother to confirm this -- yes, she likes Astrology)....I have Pitted Mars in the 6th.

Mars is Below Earth, indicating something internal rather than something external (Above Earth means external).

Mars rules liver.

6th House/Sign signifies intestines, liver and kidneys.

I was born with jaundice, caused by liver things.

Doctor told my mother it would go away after a couple of days of breast-feeding, as the aforementioned medical stuff explains much better than I could.

True or False? False. If the doctor practiced Astrology, he wouldn't have been so stupid. Direct Natal Moon by Transit three days ahead and we find Transiting Moon in the 6th House at 20 Aries joining Mars at 28 Aries.

That is a medical issue; specifically to wit, my mother was unable to produce either colustrum or milk, and therefore I had to go back to the doctor, and I won't share what happened next.

Once again, 6th House is intestines, liver and kidneys, Mars is liver, and here's Transiting Moon joining Mars, not to mention Natal Moon was in the 5th House which is stomach and liver.

Next up.....

Jose Feliciano
Sep 10 1945, 10:00 am, +3:00
Lares Puerto Rico 18N18' 066W53'

Natal Moon at 1 Scorpio in 1st House (but 2nd Sign).

Directed Moon by Transit on day 3 which is September 13, and we find Directed Transiting Moon at...

...7 Sagittarius....which is an Azieme Degree.

Moon....Azieme.

Directed Transiting Moon square Mercury and Sun in Virgo.

Anyone think Jose Feliciano was blind? Uh, he was blind.

He's still blind.

Let's see.....Moon and Mars are Planetary Enemies......but we knew that....Moon and Mercury are Planetary Enemies and Moon and Sun are Planetary Enemies....you think Mercury enjoys being squared by Enemy Moon from Sagittarius, a Sign that Mercury hates?

On Day 7, Directed Transiting Moon falls at 27 Capricorn, which is not only Moon's Fall, it is a Pitted Degree, and it is....an Azieme Degree.

Moon....Azieme.....blind...pretty obvious.

On Day 40, Directed Transiting Moon comes to 17 Aries which is the 6th House but 7th Sign, and Dispositor Natal Mars is at 1 Cancer.

Note that human gestation is like 39-40 weeks.

One more....

Olive Brasno Oct 8 1914, 3:00 am, +5:00
Old Bridge New Jersey

40N24'53'' 074W21'57''

On Day 7, the Directed Transiting Moon falls at 27 Leo in the 12th House/Sign which is a Pitted Degree....and Azieme.

Brasno was a dwarf (she was not a Munchkin in the Wizard of Oz, but her husband was).

Note that Natal Venus is also Azieme.

Anyway, I think this technique is designed solely for the purpose of examining the health of the infant and mother. Note that it is rare, but not unusual for women to hemorrhage in the few days after giving birth. I wouldn't be surprised to see that in the original technique, the position(s) of Transiting Moon would also be compared against the mother's Natal Chart.
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Unread 08-31-2013, 11:36 PM
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Re: Feral Planets

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...
All that is great, Bob, very entertaining. So tell me, do you count profections as you count this technique, is the first year of life signified by the 2nd sign?
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Re: Feral Planets

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Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
Uh, I failed trig. I had to drop the course in order to remain eligible to play football my senior year (that wasn't Ohio High School Athletic Association rules, that was our school district's rules).
Yes, well I'd be willing to bet you didn't take two months to wrap your brain around diurnal motion vs. zodiacal motion.



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Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
The software should progress, direct, transit the Moon, not cast new charts.
Aha. Again for clarity, when we use this technique, the base chart remains the same and all we want to do is compare how the Moon herself moves through it.



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I vote for Glitch. Glitch would make a wonderful president or prime minister of some hapless country.
Pretty sure Glitch has been president or prime minister of several hapless countries.




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I can't believe you people made me go read Valens.
Which is exactly how I feel every time I try. At least you "get" it. I just get a headache.

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Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
My text is formatted differently, so I don't have corresponding page numbers, but this is what Valens says....

/176/ For forecasts of dangers to health, diseases, bleeding, or the mother, we will start with the moon.
I guess really the question becomes...how often today would we have the need for this particular technique? Mostly, unless we are predicting for kings and kingdoms, we are going to be getting questions from people who have made it past the 3rd and 7th day. Although, since the accurate birth time was reported through all media outlets, trying it out on the latest British princeling might be interesting.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
/176/ For forecasts of dangers to health, diseases, bleeding, or the mother, we will start with the moon.

...at least he got that part right.

So....(I called my mother to confirm this -- yes, she likes Astrology)....I have Pitted Mars in the 6th.

Mars is Below Earth, indicating something internal rather than something external (Above Earth means external).

Mars rules liver.

6th House/Sign signifies intestines, liver and kidneys.

I was born with jaundice, caused by liver things.

Doctor told my mother it would go away after a couple of days of breast-feeding, as the aforementioned medical stuff explains much better than I could.

True or False? False. If the doctor practiced Astrology, he wouldn't have been so stupid. Direct Natal Moon by Transit three days ahead and we find Transiting Moon in the 6th House at 20 Aries joining Mars at 28 Aries.

That is a medical issue; specifically to wit, my mother was unable to produce either colustrum or milk, and therefore I had to go back to the doctor, and I won't share what happened next.

Once again, 6th House is intestines, liver and kidneys, Mars is liver, and here's Transiting Moon joining Mars, not to mention Natal Moon was in the 5th House which is stomach and liver.
Unfortunately, when we live in an age in which even students of astrology compare it to witchcraft, and too many have given up on the ability to predict precisely, that doctor would be laughed out of his profession. Fingers crossed that this won't always be the case.


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Anyway, I think this technique is designed solely for the purpose of examining the health of the infant and mother. Note that it is rare, but not unusual for women to hemorrhage in the few days after giving birth. I wouldn't be surprised to see that in the original technique, the position(s) of Transiting Moon would also be compared against the mother's Natal Chart.
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Unread 09-01-2013, 04:11 AM
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Re: Feral Planets

Well, counting wise we know that Paulus Alexandrianus started the count (in profection) from 1 (the 1st sign = 1st year, not 0) Also, throughout Vedic astrological history all counts (for their various and sundry techniques) are inclusive and start at 1 (not at 0) However there is some historical conjecture (at the present time) as to (at least with profections) Valens and other Hellenists (excluding Paulus) started at 0 or at 1-I have been under the impression that Valens et al started the count at 0 (Ben Dykes follows this concept) but I might be wrong (of course as is known here on AW I follow Paulus-and the entire historical Vedic tradition as well!-and start counts, such as in profection, at 1)...

PS: I am a doctor (of Medical Science in homeopathy) and I use astrological techniques as an important aid in my practice of complementary & alternative medicine...
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Re: Feral Planets

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

PS: I am a doctor (of Medical Science in homeopathy) and I use astrological techniques as an important aid in my practice of complementary & alternative medicine...
Yes, you do. Which I think is awesome. Unfortunately, most don't.
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Unread 09-01-2013, 04:22 AM
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Re: Feral Planets

Yes, even very few among alternative practitioners use astrological methods: largest % of alternative medicos who DO use (at least some) astrological considerations are found among Traditional Chinese Medicine (acupuncture) and Ayurvedic practitioners.
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Unread 09-01-2013, 08:50 AM
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Re: Feral Planets

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Yes, even very few among alternative practitioners use astrological methods: largest % of alternative medicos who DO use (at least some) astrological considerations are found among Traditional Chinese Medicine (acupuncture) and Ayurvedic practitioners.
Just to support dr farr's claim, the entire Chinese Medicines system and therapy is based on balancing yin, yang and 5 elements. A traditional well skilled Chinese medical doctor will first review a patient natal chart before physical assessment.
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Unread 09-01-2013, 10:10 AM
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Re: Feral Planets

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Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
All that is great, Bob, very entertaining. So tell me, do you count profections as you count this technique, is the first year of life signified by the 2nd sign?
It seems then that there are - as usual amongst astrologers - alternative ways of practicing particular techniques.

For example Konrad, in particular, you use the sidereal locations of planets along with Valens and/or other ancient techniques and with consistently good results.

Other astrologers use the tropical locations of planets with Valens and/or other ancient techniques also with good results.


Since BobZemco has usefully provided several examples that clearly illustrate the specific 'counting method' he uses - and I quote as follows
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobZemco View Post
.........this is what Valens says....


For forecasts of dangers to health, diseases, bleeding, or the mother, we will start with the moon.

Bearing that in mind...

What colostrum lacks in volume it makes up for in power. Some people refer to colostrum as "high octane" milk. It's full of antibodies and immunoglobulins, which not only help protect newborns as they come into our world of bacteria and viruses, but also has a laxative effect that helps them expel the tarry first stools called meconium.

http://www.babycenter.com/404_whats-colostrum_8896.bc

Colostrum is extremely easy to digest, and is therefore the perfect first food for your baby. It is low in volume (measurable in teaspoons rather than ounces), but high in concentrated nutrition for the newborn. Colostrum has a laxative effect on the baby, helping him pass his early stools, which aids in the excretion of excess bilirubin and helps prevent jaundice. When your baby is breastfed early and often, your breasts will begin producing mature milk around the third or fourth day after birth.

Colostrum has an especially important role to play in the baby's gastrointestinal tract. A newborn's intestines are very permeable. Colostrum seals the holes by "painting" the gastrointestinal tract with a barrier which mostly prevents foreign substances from penetrating and possibly sensitizing a baby to foods the mother has eaten.
Colostrum also contains high concentrations of leukocytes, protective white cells which can destroy disease-causing bacteria and viruses.


http://www.llli.org/faq/colostrum.html


Infant Stomach Capacity




Colostrum is high in carbohydrates, high in protein, high in antibodies, and low in fat (as human newborns may find fat difficult to digest). Newborns have very small digestive systems, and colostrum delivers its nutrients in a very concentrated low-volume form.

It has a mild laxative effect, encouraging the passing of the baby's first stool, which is called meconium.

This clears excess bilirubin, a waste product of dead red blood cells which is produced in large quantities at birth due to blood volume reduction, from the infant's body and helps prevent jaundice.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/c/colostrum.htm


Okay, let's put this together.

Valens is copying from older sources

(like Dorotheus --although Dorotheus is not that much older).

Romans counted differently than other contemporary cultures did

3 Days is 3 Days. Add 3 to birth date eg July 10 + 3 = July 13; May 26 + 3 = May 29 and so on.


This is medical health only,
as it relates to infant/mother's health
and not about the Native's misery or fortune in life or anything else....

once again...

/176/ For forecasts of dangers to health, diseases, bleeding, or the mother, we will start with the moon.


...at least he got that part right.

So....(I called my mother to confirm this -- yes, she likes Astrology)....I have Pitted Mars in the 6th.

Mars is Below Earth, indicating something internal rather than something external (Above Earth means external).

Mars rules liver.

6th House/Sign signifies intestines, liver and kidneys.

I was born with jaundice, caused by liver things.

Doctor told my mother it would go away after a couple of days of breast-feeding, as the aforementioned medical stuff explains much better than I could.

True or False? False. If the doctor practiced Astrology, he wouldn't have been so stupid. Direct Natal Moon by Transit three days ahead and we find Transiting Moon in the 6th House at 20 Aries joining Mars at 28 Aries.

That is a medical issue; specifically to wit, my mother was unable to produce either colustrum or milk, and therefore I had to go back to the doctor, and I won't share what happened next.

Once again, 6th House is intestines, liver and kidneys, Mars is liver, and here's Transiting Moon joining Mars, not to mention Natal Moon was in the 5th House which is stomach and liver.

Next up.....

Jose Feliciano
Sep 10 1945, 10:00 am, +3:00
Lares Puerto Rico 18N18' 066W53'


Natal Moon at 1 Scorpio in 1st House (but 2nd Sign).

Directed Moon by Transit on day 3 which is September 13, and we find Directed Transiting Moon at...

...7 Sagittarius....which is an Azieme Degree.

Moon....Azieme.

Directed Transiting Moon square Mercury and Sun in Virgo.

Anyone think Jose Feliciano was blind? Uh, he was blind.

He's still blind.

Let's see.....Moon and Mars are Planetary Enemies......but we knew that....Moon and Mercury are Planetary Enemies and Moon and Sun are Planetary Enemies....you think Mercury enjoys being squared by Enemy Moon from Sagittarius, a Sign that Mercury hates?

On Day 7, Directed Transiting Moon falls at 27 Capricorn, which is not only Moon's Fall, it is a Pitted Degree, and it is....an Azieme Degree.

Moon....Azieme.....blind...pretty obvious.

On Day 40, Directed Transiting Moon comes to 17 Aries which is the 6th House but 7th Sign, and Dispositor Natal Mars is at 1 Cancer.

Note that human gestation is like 39-40 weeks.

One more....

Olive Brasno Oct 8 1914, 3:00 am, +5:00
Old Bridge New Jersey

40N24'53'' 074W21'57''


On Day 7, the Directed Transiting Moon falls at 27 Leo in the 12th House/Sign which is a Pitted Degree....and Azieme.

Brasno was a dwarf (she was not a Munchkin in the Wizard of Oz, but her husband was).

Note that Natal Venus is also Azieme.

Anyway, I think this technique is designed solely for the purpose of examining the health of the infant and mother.

Note that it is rare, but not unusual for women to hemorrhage in the few days after giving birth.

I wouldn't be surprised to see that in the original technique, the position(s) of Transiting Moon would also be compared against the mother's Natal Chart
.
so then Konrad

if

- using the birth data from these same examples -

you would illustrate the specific 'counting method' you use

then we may all potentially engage in useful discussion regarding these apparently 'alternative methods' in order that we may then possibly clarify the matter
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Unread 09-01-2013, 11:44 AM
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Re: Feral Planets

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
so then Konrad

if

- using the birth data from these same examples -

you would illustrate the specific 'counting method' you use

then we may all potentially engage in useful discussion regarding these apparently 'alternative methods' in order that we may then possibly clarify the matter
Of course, but in regard to the woman born a midget, I would not like to do this as there really isn't enough in the source texts or my own experience to judge this affliction.

Just for clarity, I wouldn't look at this technique for problems experienced at birth as I don't agree with the logic of progressing a point to find something already present in the native, I would use a different technique based upon the nativity as it is. If that is still fine, then we can go ahead.

I know I am whoring out my chart a lot at the moment, but perhaps Bob Zemco could look at mine? In my own chart, my 3rd day Moon (according to his counting) is opposed Saturn and in a pitted degree while the 7th day Moon is opposed Mars and in a lame degree, both in the Tropical measurement system.
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Unread 09-01-2013, 12:39 PM
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Re: Feral Planets

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Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Of course, but in regard to the woman born a midget, I would not like to do this as there really isn't enough in the source texts or my own experience to judge this affliction
Nevertheless would be interesting for comparison purposes if you would post the 3rd Day of the Moon chart as would be shown by the method of counting that differs from that utilised by BobZemco for the woman you mention i.e.
Olive Brasno Oct 8 1914, 3:00 am, +5:00
Old Bridge New Jersey

40N24'53'' 074W21'57''

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Just for clarity, I wouldn't look at this technique for problems experienced at birth as I don't agree with the logic of progressing a point to find something already present in the native, I would use a different technique based upon the nativity as it is. If that is still fine, then we can go ahead
That's understandable.

Nevertheless, if you would be interested to post your delineation using the different technique you mention
- the one that is based on the nativity as it is -
then we can discuss the possibility that the Days of the Moon technique may/may not be needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
I know I am whoring out my chart a lot at the moment
That's one way of describing your offer - however, no need to be so harsh on yourself - I'm certain interested readers would simply consider this as a useful means of adding to the discussion on this thread by using the chart of 'an unknown normal person'

- most charts in the public domain are those of notorious criminals and/or celebrities whose nativities are extraordinary -

so an opportunity to view the chart of a person who is neither a celebrity nor notorious is always of value

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
....but perhaps Bob Zemco could look at mine? In my own chart, my 3rd day Moon (according to his counting) is opposed Saturn and in a pitted degree while the 7th day Moon is opposed Mars and in a lame degree, both in the Tropical measurement system.
Perhaps then Konrad, if you would like to post two versions of your own chart

VERSION 1 according to BobZemco's Roman method of counting
VERSION 2 according to your preferred method of counting

then perhaps BobZemco may be interested to demonstrate why the Roman method he uses may/may not be preferable to the other method

btw Obviously as well - since you use Sidereal zodiac - then it would be more interesting for you personally if you were to also post those two versions of your 3rd Days of the Moon chart in the Sidereal zodiac that you use

so that BobZemco may highlight any obvious differences in delineation that using Sidereal could show


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Unread 09-01-2013, 12:46 PM
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Re: Feral Planets

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
...
Well I'm quite happy to post my own chart, but not in the Sidereal zodiac as this means we are using too many variables. I don't buy this 3rd day of the Moon technique fully since I am not happy with the explanations of why 3/7/40 days (and the only pratical usage I can be sure of is the 40th day position), so the Tropical measurement system will do fine.

Ultimately, it is up to, Bob. If he wants to go ahead then we can, if not, I'm easy with that too.
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Unread 09-01-2013, 01:22 PM
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Re: Feral Planets

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Well I'm quite happy to post my own chart, but not in the Sidereal zodiac as this means we are using too many variables.
Fair enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
I don't buy this 3rd day of the Moon technique fully since I am not happy with the explanations of why 3/7/40 days (and the only practical usage I can be sure of is the 40th day position), so the Tropical measurement system will do fine.

Ultimately, it is up to, Bob. If he wants to go ahead then we can, if not, I'm easy with that too.
Then if you are happy to post your own chart
then do so
for each of the three days of the Moon
as tsmall did with her example earlier
so that BobZemco can then go ahead and comment when he next visits this thread
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Re: Feral Planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Aha. Again for clarity, when we use this technique, the base chart remains the same and all we want to do is compare how the Moon herself moves through it.
Dorotheus (writing before Valens) says only to look at the Sign the Moon enters on the 3rd Day after birth. He briefly explains the purpose is to know the fortune or misery of the Native's upbringing.

In these texts, there are many things that are implied, inferred, presumed, assumed or understood to be, even though they are not explicitly detailed.

In other words, even though the text does not explicitly state that you are to look at a Planet's Sect, Phase, House Position, Degree (for Azieme, Bright, Pitted etc), Speed/Direction, Bound, Aspects and so on, it's understood that those things should always be done.

As best as I can tell, I don't see where Dorotheus mentions the 7th or 40th Days, so it would seem Valens is quoting someone else, and that only serves to cloud the issue more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
I guess really the question becomes...how often today would we have the need for this particular technique?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
Of course, but in regard to the woman born a midget, I would not like to do this as there really isn't enough in the source texts or my own experience to judge this affliction.

Just for clarity, I wouldn't look at this technique for problems experienced at birth as I don't agree with the logic of progressing a point to find something already present in the native, I would use a different technique based upon the nativity as it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
I don't buy this 3rd day of the Moon technique fully since I am not happy with the explanations of why 3/7/40 days (and the only pratical usage I can be sure of is the 40th day position), so the Tropical measurement system will do fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

VERSION 1 according to BobZemco's Roman method of counting
VERSION 2 according to your preferred method of counting

then perhaps BobZemco may be interested to demonstrate why the Roman method he uses may/may not be preferable to the other method
Uh, I should probably say I've never used this technique before.

tsmall kept mentioning it, and I know I've come across it before, I just couldn't remember where, until I checked out Dorotheus.

I am convinced more than ever that this is a predictive technique to identify potential health issues with infant and mother.

You follow?

You can't cast a Solar Return, since the infant was just born. The profected Ascendant is still in the Natal Ascendant, so no joy there. And Primary Directions? To what? It's only been a few days.

So....then...how do you make predictions about the infant?

Transits are a total fail and do not work.......unless the Planet is activated.

Which Planets would be activated here?

The Moon which is the Age Ruler through age 4 and the Ascendant Ruler
.

Hold that thought for a second...

When an infant is born, what country has the time and money to spend running hundreds of ridiculous diagnostic tests?

None.

And infants are not born with neon lights advertising their medical issues.

It will be several weeks to several months, perhaps even more than a year, before a mother discovers her child is mute, or deaf or blind (and no it doesn't mean she's a bad mother).

An infant dwarf looks like a normal infant. Dwarfism has several distinct causes: hereditary; genetic but not hereditary; and glandular (doesn't Venus rule the Thymus Gland and others? -- an Azieme Venus?).

I believe it is the hereditary and genetic (non-hereditary) conditions that show the infant growing as normal....until a certain age at which time the child stops physically growing, but continues to progress in all other ways.

Seriously, I was blown away when looking at a number of charts.

Jose Feliciano was born blind, but no one knew that for several months, and what are the odds that Transiting Moon twice ends up in Azieme Degrees in two different Signs? Lloyd's of London wouldn't even touch that.

Every chart I pulled up was the same. Wadlaw, the giant, he was nearly 9 feet tall (3 meters) when he died. His Moon ends up on the 40th day in the 12th Sign/House at 0 Capricorn, in a Pitted Degree and in partile square to a Retrograde Natal Mars at 0 Libra. And Natal Saturn....Transiting Moon's Dispositor is in Leo and Retrograde and in the 6th House but 7th Sign, and Moon rules the Natal 6th Sign/House. Natal Venus is Retrograde in Aquarius applying to the opposition of Retrograde Saturn in Leo.

Not every infant has medical issues, but for those that do/did, it's really obvious.

I did not have enough information on mothers to make an evaluation of that, but I'd be inclined to believe that a Scorpio 10th Sign and Transiting Moon in square/opposition or joined to Natal Mars might indicate medical issues for mother. Same with Mars in the 10th and Transiting Moon in square/opposition or joined, or Transiting Moon landing in the 10th and so on. There are of course several different combinations of Planets, Signs and Houses that could indicate the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
In my own chart, my 3rd day Moon (according to his counting) is opposed Saturn and in a pitted degree while the 7th day Moon is opposed Mars and in a lame degree, both in the Tropical measurement system.
That could be anything from fevers to being dropped on your head as an infant or vision problems, up to and including blindness. Could be other things as well.

"Lame" Degrees indicate some kind of congenital birth defect. The defect may not be visible or so obvious, and it may not manifest itself until later in life.

For example, you'll often read about athletes at the high school or university level that "suddenly" collapse and die.

The autopsies often reveal minor defects in the heart, particularly in the heart valves, ventricles or the the walls of the major arteries that carry blood to or from the heart.

Even through medical diagnostic testing, they cannot or would not be discovered, but I'd submit to you that a competent astrologer could discover those, if not through Azieme Degrees in the Natal Chart or using the days of the Moon, then through a thorough delineation of the 6th and 12th Houses.
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Unread 09-04-2013, 06:56 AM
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Re: Feral Planets

In those olden times, regarding the horoscope of a child, there was a great deal of concern with the (astrological) question, "Will the child be raised?", and an important part of what the astrologer would do (regarding a child's horoscope) was to attempt to answer this question FIRST and foremost: hence many techniques for doing so. In the case of someone past 10 or 11 years of age, and of course regarding persons who were already adults, answering such a question was not necessary and the techniques used to answer the "will the child be raised?" question, would not apply; however, I think that in later times (Renaissance, Reformation times) perhaps some of these "will the child be raised" techniques were applied for longevity/death prediction purposes, which of course was not the reason these techniques were intended for, originally...
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