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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 02-24-2012, 07:03 PM
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Profections (Praxis)

I've already opened 2 threads on the traditional astrology forum where I tried to practically measure the value of the traditional astrology techniques .

The first is about Hyleg and Alcocoden which you can find here:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=46808

On this thread we tried to investigate the different approaches and theories of this predictive technique as was given by different authors in the past.
The thread is still open for practice (and theory as well) on the charts of already death persons/celebrities.

The 2nd thread I've open was about the Arabic/Greek Lots on which we investigate the theory of eminence and fame shown in the chart.
This thread you can find here:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=47124
It is still open for investigating and deepening the knowledge (theoretical and practical as well) of these ancient techniques.

Another subject that is fascinating me is the subject of Profections. They are also very colorful in variety of sub-themes and opinions of authors upon it.
I saw that tsmall has already opened a thread on this subject, which you can find here:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=41112

I hope that we can use both threads for discovering the value of this technique, of which I would try in this thread to follow the earlier example of my earlier 2 threads on which I tried to make summary and practical exegesis of the particular subjects.
So, here I will try to summarize the different approaches by authors step by step, alongside with practical analyse of a charts of the celebrities ranged with AA.

I'm inviting you to participate with me in deepening the knowledge of these ancient and medieval techniques and discover the beauty that lies in it, the beauty of knowing more about the Cosmos and Us.

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Unread 02-24-2012, 07:27 PM
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Profections by Paulus

Quote:
As many years as the nativity should spin out, we pass these through from the hour-marking zōidion [sign], giving the first year of engendered time to the Hōroskopos [ascending sign] and the second to the post-ascension of the Hōroskopos [2nd place], and so on for the rest in the following zōidia [signs], until the 12th number should be completed.
This is the basic technique given by Paulus of Annual Profections of the Ascendant, i.e. profection of the Ascendant from one sign to the next for each year of life. The Ruler of the Sign in which the Ascendant is falling in that particular year is called 'The Lord of the Year".
This technique is quite simple and you do not need to calculate degrees, only signs.
If you are born with Aries rising, on the Solar Return the next year (when you are 1 year old) the Profected Ascendant would be in Taurus and the Lord of the Year would be Venus.

The Ages 0, 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, 72, 84, 96 and etc., are the 'Profection Return' (to invent a title xD), the Ascendant in those years is the same as it was at the birth, so the Lord of the Year is the same too.

Years 1, 13, 25, 37, 49, 61, 73, 85, 97 are given to the 2nd sign from the Ascendant.

Here's a chart:
Profections by Year.jpg

The Lord of the Year is having the same function as the Lord of the Year at nativity. It is most significant planet, ruling the place where the Soul (the Sky) and Body (earth) are merging (at the Ascendant).

Here's what Paulus says about the Lord of the year in profections:

Quote:
...falls to Virgo. Hermes (Mercury) is the lord of the year. We examine the [star] of Hermes, how it lies in the nativity, and which of the stars make a baleful aspect to it, and which look ahead at the zōidion where the year has chanced to be, and which were configured with it in the nativity...

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Unread 02-24-2012, 08:08 PM
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Whitney Houston's TimeLine with Profections of the Ascendant

I found out a time Line of Whitney's life/career and I want to try this technique given by Paulus.
Her first (debut) album was released in the year 1985.
I've made a chart for her birth day in august 1984.

Look at the BeWheel. The inner planets are from the Natal Chart and the outer wheel is for the Profected year in 1984-1985.

For now, we will look only at the profected Ascendant and its ruler: the lord of the year.

Whitney BiWheel Profections 1984.jpg

The Ascendant is in 8Sagittarius in 10th, up there in Elevation. And as it will progress throughout the year (1984-1985) will reach her Natal Mc at 18Sag.

The Lord of the Year (Jupiter) is in fall (in Capricorn) but in good profected house (11th!).
Well, it is conjuncting the natal South Node.
I think that Ascendant being up there in MC is a quite strong deal in itself, and is showing the Beginnings of her Elevation to the throne of being the pop diva.


(I will continue with the timeline later when I have the time)..
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Unread 02-24-2012, 08:31 PM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Another subject that is fascinating me is the subject of Profections. They are also very colorful in variety of sub-themes and opinions of authors upon it.
I saw that tsmall has already opened a thread on this subject, which you can find here:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=41112

I hope that we can use both threads for discovering the value of this technique, of which I would try in this thread to follow the earlier example of my earlier 2 threads on which I tried to make summary and practical exegesis of the particular subjects.
So, here I will try to summarize the different approaches by authors step by step, alongside with practical analyse of a charts of the celebrities ranged with AA.

I'm inviting you to participate with me in deepening the knowledge of these ancient and medieval techniques and discover the beauty that lies in it, the beauty of knowing more about the Cosmos and Us
Omnisphericus the discussions engendered on the two threads you have already initiated are of great value in clarifying the interesting ideas of (a) the assessment of Vital Force of the native as well as (b) Eminence Indicators in the natal chart. The Profection technique is at least two thousand years old and may have - not unexpectedly - 'morphed' or altered subtly over the centuries - due possibly to translation from one language to another. Nevertheless it is clear these techniques are of great value when studying charts that have reliable birth times.

As you have already said above, Profection has 'a variety of sub themes' and, as ever, there are varied opinions as to methods of Profection - I applaud your intention to highlight may of these variegated methods and thus to bring clarity to this perennially intriguing topic.

Thank you for taking the time to present this information - much appreciated!
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Unread 02-24-2012, 08:33 PM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

Good job (as always) Omni!! I just wish to see more expert people in the Traditional section so they could help us with their knowledge.
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Unread 02-24-2012, 08:44 PM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

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Originally Posted by DreamingTheSeas View Post
Good job (as always) Omni!! I just wish to see more expert people in the Traditional section so they could help us with their knowledge.
It is said that "Quality is better than Quantity" DreamingTheSeas and we do have Omnisphericus!
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Unread 02-24-2012, 09:00 PM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

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Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
This is the basic technique given by Paulus of Annual Profections of the Ascendant, i.e. profection of the Ascendant from one sign to the next for each year of life. The Ruler of the Sign in which the Ascendant is falling in that particular year is called 'The Lord of the Year".
This technique is quite simple and you do not need to calculate degrees, only signs.
If you are born with Aries rising, on the Solar Return the next year (when you are 1 year old) the Profected Ascendant would be in Taurus and the Lord of the Year would be Venus.

The Ages 0, 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, 72, 84, 96 and etc., are the 'Profection Return' (to invent a title xD), the Ascendant in those years is the same as it was at the birth, so the Lord of the Year is the same too.


Years 1, 13, 25, 37, 49, 61, 73, 85, 97 are given to the 2nd sign from the Ascendant.


Here's a chart:
Attachment 27162

The Lord of the Year is having the same function as the Lord of the Year at nativity. It is most significant planet, ruling the place where the Soul (the Sky) and Body (earth) are merging (at the Ascendant).

Here's what Paulus says about the Lord of the year in profections:
Omnisphericus, correct me if I'm wrong but I had better mention at this stage that I notice that dr. farr has posted on another thread some time ago that he 'finds Pauline profection to be the more accurate profection method' - however, dr. farr seems to be saying that it is the Egyptian method that starts the count at 0 but that Paulus of Alexandria differed and began the count at 1, so we need some clarification methinks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
The place where the count starts, ie the first house, can make a difference: the Egyptian method (which ahs always been the dominant one, and is the one followed by Valens) begins the count at 0 (in other words, the year after birth = the 1st house and is counted as 0) Paulus of Alexandria differed, and began the count at 1 (in other words, the year after birth = the 1st house and is counted as 1) I myself have followed the Pauline profection (all of the available authors have chosen to follow the Egyptian method of starting @ 0, including Lehman, Ben Dykes, etc)

In my experience I have found Pauline profection to be the more accurate profection method
.
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Unread 02-24-2012, 09:24 PM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

Thank you for your encouragement guys, I really appreciate!
I'm a student not an expert though. But the enthusiasm to learn is great in me and I have this need to share with all of you what I have found fascinating; this character trait of mine is pushing me to post all this techniques here.
Also, I want to go to the roots of something, to find its core!
I honestly believe that our desire to learn will spontaneously lead us to become 'experts' about these stuffs some day.

Quote:
Omnisphericus, correct me if I'm wrong but I had better mention at this stage that I notice that dr. farr has posted on another thread some time ago that he 'finds Pauline profection to be the more accurate profection method' - however, dr. farr seems to be saying that it is the Egyptian method that starts the count at 0 but that Paulus of Alexandria differed and began the count at 1, so we need some clarification methinks!
I'm not familiar with the truth behind these two statements. It would be good to invite dr.farr to this discussion to point to us the sources of his thesis.
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Unread 02-24-2012, 10:48 PM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

Yet another terrific learning thread, Omnisphericus. I don't know if you are familiar with this pdf from Clelia Romano?

http://www.astrologiahumana.com/profectionsvalens.pdf

I am very new, and so curious. Valens and his contemporaries appear to move the planets in their yearly profections as well as the ASC. Did later medieval astrologers not do the same?
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Unread 02-25-2012, 12:04 AM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

There seems to be many variations on the basic profection technique. An acquaintance of mine did a recent blog series examining some of them, might be useful or interesting for readers of this thread;

http://www.sevenstarsastrology.com/tag/profections/
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Unread 02-25-2012, 12:26 AM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Yet another terrific learning thread, Omnisphericus. I don't know if you are familiar with this pdf from Clelia Romano?

http://www.astrologiahumana.com/profectionsvalens.pdf

I am very new, and so curious. Valens and his contemporaries appear to move the planets in their yearly profections as well as the ASC. Did later medieval astrologers not do the same?
I've read the article just yesterday!

The medieval astronomer-astrologer Eleutherios Zebelenos says:

Quote:
The general signs of the completion >profection< are the foundations which proceed, year after year, from sign to sign: beginning from the horoscope or from the culmination or from any star. The star that is the lord of the sign in which the completion arrives, starting from the sign of the horoscope of the nativity, year after year, is the chronocrator or the Lord of the Year
This passage seems to show that the medievals too profected from other points then the ascendant.
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Unread 02-25-2012, 12:27 AM
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Some theoretical considerations

I found out this great article by italian scholar Giuseppe Bezza:
http://www.cieloeterra.it/eng/eng.ar...rofezione.html

In it he gives introductory considerations on the derivation of the word "Profection".
He is of thinking that the word apparently comes from Latin profectio, the verbal noun of proficiscor, which has the literal sense of "starting" and the metaphorical meaning of "origin"

It seems out that the word Profection is derived from the latin 'perfectio' which in combination with the Greek teléiôsis means literally Completion or Accomplishment (see the quote in the post above this one).

G.Bezza makes a conclusion on the origin of the word:
Quote:
Therefore, we can arrive to the conclusion that the word "profection" is a corruption of an Arabic term which is properly translated both in Byzantine world and in the Latin West by two corresponding words: teléiôsis, perfectio. Nevertheless, we should notice that none of these translations fully express the meaning of the original Arabic word, intihâ', which means "end", completion.
Next in his article G.Bezza is discribing the chapter IV of Valen's Antology,a chapter in which he speaks about the Profections.

There are two terms which he uses itnerchangebly: "Hands over" and "Takes Over".
So, for example if we have Aries rising, and in the 2nd Place we have Taurus with Saturn in it. The next year Taurus will come to the place of the Ascendant and Aries would go to the 12th place.
Valens would say: "The horoscope Hands Over to Saturn, and Saturn receives the Horoscope". In other words, the horoscope passes its own nature to the following sign alongside with the planet which is in (in this case Saturn).
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Unread 02-25-2012, 01:06 AM
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Re: Some theoretical considerations

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Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
Next in his article G.Bezza is discribing the chapter IV of Valen's Antology,a chapter in which he speaks about the Profections.

There are two terms which he uses itnerchangebly: "Hands over" and "Takes Over".
So, for example if we have Aries rising, and in the 2nd Place we have Taurus with Saturn in it. The next year Taurus will come to the place of the Ascendant and Aries would go to the 12th place.
Valens would say: "The horoscope Hands Over to Saturn, and Saturn receives the Horoscope". In other words, the horoscope passes its own nature to the following sign alongside with the planet which is in (in this case Saturn).
This is where I start to be confused. I don't understand how in this case Saturn receives the horiscope, if Saturn is in Taurus. Wouldn't Venus receive the horoscope and become Lady of the Year, and Saturn becomes angular, but retains any dignity he may or may not have natally? Also, isn't it Mars, as ruler of Aries, that is handing over to Venus? It seems like it should be easier to understand, but for some reason for me not so much.
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Last edited by tsmall; 02-25-2012 at 02:17 AM.
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Unread 02-25-2012, 02:09 AM
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Re: Some theoretical considerations

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This is where I start to be confused. I don't understand how in this case Saturn receives the horiscope, if Saturn is in Taurus. Wouldn't Venus receive the horiscope and become Lady of the Year, and Saturn becomes angular, but retains any dignity he may or may not have natally? Also, isn't it Mars, as ruler of Aries, that is handing over to Venus? It seems like it should be easier to understand, but for some reason for me not so much.
Lady/Lord of the year is the planet ruling the ascendant in this case Taurus and Venus.
Saturn stays in 2nd house but its Sign (Taurus) moves to the Ascendant, therefore Valens would say: 'The horoscope (ascendant) was hands over to Saturn". Therefore Saturn receives the Horoscopes (Ascendant). Because Saturn is naturally staying in Taurus.
I think that your confusion lies in the word 'horoscope', Valens (and many other in that time) called the Ascendant - Horoscope.

I think that the other part of your confusion is because you think that the Ascendant was given to Taurus (and its ruler Venus).
In the case of Taurus being the Ascendant in that particular year, I think Valens would say: "Taurus takes over the horoscope".

I'm not quite sure yet, it is confusing for me too.

Last edited by Omnisphericus; 02-25-2012 at 04:20 PM.
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Unread 02-25-2012, 06:24 AM
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Re: Some theoretical considerations

It is my understanding that the Pauline profection count starts at 1 (the ascending sign being 1), from Greenbaum's "Late Classical Astrology"; this same procedure (if I understood the Greenbaum translation correctly) of starting the count in profection at 1 rather than @ 0, is specifically mentioned in the Harranian Thabit ibn Qurra's work, "Ghayat el-Kawakeb" (Way-or Path-of the Planets")*

Certainly the majority (perhaps every) Hellenist (Valens, Maternus, etc) used the Egyptian profection starting the count with 0 (for the ascending sign), but I understand that Paulus differed in this as he also differed in using a multiplier of 13 in determining dodekatemorion rather than the multiplier of 12, as used by all of the other Hellenist authors as the "Egyptian" dodekatemorion method.

In any event, I have always used the profection method starting the profection count at 1 (rather than at 0) and it has worked very accurately for me; in a particular approach to gochara (transits) in Vedic astrology, the profection of the natal ascendant is used to determine the functional benefic/malefic planets for that profection year: in this ancient Vedic method, the count also begins @ 1 (for the natal ascending sign)

Regarding the "handing over" question, to my understanding this simply means that the chart is turned to put the yearly profected ascendant into the natal ascendant position (ie to make it the first house), doing so in sequence for each subsequent year (regardless of the count method: 0 or 1-you might be using) But I take this in a different sense (although the effect is the same), eg, the natal ascendant (say Aries) in the next year becomes Taurus: so Taurus is the profected 1st house and the previous 1st house (Aries) now becomes the 12th house, in that year, and so on around the wheel.


(*in one of the profection methods found in "Astronomica", 14 AD, Manilius talks about giving the 1st year of life to the Sun sign, so my reading of this method-maybe I'm mistaken-nonetheless is starting the count at 1, rather than at 0; in the Manilius methods profection year to year is started from the natal Sun sign, month to month from the natal Moon sign, and day to day from the natal ascendant; thus in this method, at any given time you would have 3 operative profection elements: planetary lord of the yearly profection sign + planetary lord of the monthly profection sign + ploanetary lord of the daily profection sign; notice how this concept as elaborated by Manilius is so similar to the commonly used "dasa" periods of Vedic astrology, where we have a main (mahadasa) lord+a sub (bhukti) lord+ a sub-sub (antar) lord, operative during any given period of time)

PS: Notice in the Whitney Houston whole sign chart, by Pauline profection (that is, by starting the profection count at 1) her ascendant has profected into her natal 12th house at the beginning of her 48th year: thus Lord of her 48th year is Saturn, which is also placed in her natal 12th house; that makes the profected 12th house also fall under Saturn (the profected 12th house is Capricorn), and this profected 12th house contains the natal SN; notice also that the Lord of her 48th profection year (which is also the Lord of her profected 12th house), Saturn, was retrograde and in a pitted (blocked) degree, at the time of her passing.
Notice also that her profected 8th house is Virgo, and that at the time of her passing Mars was transiting that sign (old time astrological doctrine that serious/fatal accidents cannot happen unless Mars has a connection)

Last edited by dr. farr; 02-25-2012 at 07:10 AM.
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Unread 02-25-2012, 06:38 PM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

dr. farr thank you for your replay. I will give it more attention when I have the time. I'm happy to see you here on this discussion.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 12:14 AM
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Very astonishing example

Natal-Profections (example for murder).jpg

In the chart you can see BiWheel.
In the inner wheel is the natal position of the planets, on the outer wheel it is profection for the day of the murder of this young lady X.

It is a sad story. It is a young girl 21 years old which was stubbed more then 50 times by her boyfriend in her apartment. She passed away immediately.
The boyfriend was so cruel and after he stubbed her acted like nothing happens and went with his friends on a drink.

Lets look first at her birth chart.
As you can see she has Moon on IC and Mars on MC in partile opposition.
The last aspect (prior the birth) Moon has made was with the Sun in 8th and the next (exact) aspect which the Moon is gonna make is with that Mars on MC (Mars is associated with Knifes). The last aspect is showing the condition prior the birth, the next which the Moon is applying is showing a condition (or event) post birth.
You can see also Saturn in 10th. The two Malefics on the public scene up there (this murder was widely known because the murderer later on escape from jail and etc.). Btw the murder happened in small country and it was popular (MC).
Saturn is ruler of 6th, Moon of 12th, Sun of 1st - the Body (in 8th).

Ok, these are natal indicators.
Lets now look for the profections of the exact date exact hour of the murder.

Look the Moon on the Ascendant. Bonatti says: "Moon kills when on the Ascendant".
Look then where the profected ASC is, it is on natal Saturn up there in 10th!
Look what we have on DC: MC, Mars and Saturn.

So, those natal malefics in 10th alongside with the MC came on DC (partner stubbed her and this become publicly known, famous death).
Mars is showing the murderer, Saturn Death and MC the publicity.

Profected South Node and North Node are coming (applying) to the opposition of Moon and Mars on Ic-MC natally.
Next, the Fortuna and Venus in 6th near the natal North node.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 12:21 AM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

I once heard one hermetic astrologer saying: "Angles are places of Power", for better or worse!
The old masters has associated the Ac with the body and MC (the sky) with the Soul.
In a way, on the angles is spreded our Life, our Soul or Spirit.
Afflicted angles always shows something significant as we can see in the chart above.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 12:36 AM
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natal-profections-transits of the Example Above

Look now at the TriWheel.
The inner wheel is natal, in the middle are profections and on the outer wheel are transits.

Transiting Mars on 1st!
In the natal chart that Mars is showing the Opposition to her (Moon).
In the profected that Mars is in 7th showing her boyfriend.
And in the transit that Mars is in 1st, showing the stubbing knife into her body.

Look at that Saturn (ruler of natal 7th - partner). Saturn is in 7th in profections and in transits.
Transiting Moon and S.N on profected Asc and natal Saturn on MC.

Too many indicators.

And if someone is admirer of the modern planets, then one can look at that Pluto in Scorpio making square to the Ascendant.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg natal-profections-transits (example murder).jpg (67.0 KB, 13 views)

Last edited by Omnisphericus; 02-26-2012 at 12:44 AM.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 01:03 AM
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Omnisphericus Omnisphericus is offline
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QuadriWheel

natal-profections-solar arc-transits.jpg

Look now at Natal-Profections-Solar Arc- Transits.

Look how the Body - Ascendant is afflicted!
There she has Profected Moon, Directed South Node and Transiting Mars.
Directed Sun in 8th.
Profected South Node on MC, Directed Fortuna on Mc, Transiting Venus on MC.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 03:37 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

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Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
dr. farr thank you for your replay. I will give it more attention when I have the time. I'm happy to see you here on this discussion.

I'm happy you are providing such excellent information on this (and your other) threads! Thank you for doing so!

Profection is my #1 preferred predictive method (followed by simple symbolic progressions and my rather radical approach to Solar Returns)
Combining profection with transit positions (mostly as transit ingresses through the profected houses) can hardly be surpassed (in my opinion) for predicting likely influences and circumstances during the profection year.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 03:44 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: natal-profections-transits of the Example Above

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Look now at the TriWheel.
The inner wheel is natal, in the middle are profections and on the outer wheel are transits.

Transiting Mars on 1st!
In the natal chart that Mars is showing the Opposition to her (Moon).
In the profected that Mars is in 7th showing her boyfriend.
And in the transit that Mars is in 1st, showing the stubbing knife into her body.

Look at that Saturn (ruler of natal 7th - partner). Saturn is in 7th in profections and in transits.
Transiting Moon and S.N on profected Asc and natal Saturn on MC.

Too many indicators.

And if someone is admirer of the modern planets, then one can look at that Pluto in Scorpio making square to the Ascendant.

Dragon's Tail in the natal whole sign first house-one of the oldtime indications for this position is "may shorten the life"! My late wife had this position (SN in whole sign first house) and she passed away at 57 years of age.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 02:02 PM
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Re: natal-profections-transits of the Example Above

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Dragon's Tail in the natal whole sign first house-one of the oldtime indications for this position is "may shorten the life"! My late wife had this position (SN in whole sign first house) and she passed away at 57 years of age.
dr. farr look at the thread on Hyleg and Alcocoden where I investigate the death of a one month old baby. This baby seems that does not have Hyleg (3rd differentia chart) and the S.N. is very close to the Asc.
You are right about S.N.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 10:09 PM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

To all: Interesting hour long talk entitled "Profections with Maria Mateus" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7O6xObhK6M&feature=related
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Unread 02-26-2012, 10:47 PM
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Re: Profections (Praxis)

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To all: Interesting hour long talk entitled "Profections with Maria Mateus" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7O6xObhK6M&feature=related
Thank you JUPITERASC!
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