Elevated and pitted degrees

dr. farr

Well-known member
Couple other points:

Re to "bad eyes", "blindness", etc, especially in the older literature: please do not be a literalist when it comes to such terms: sure, it MIGHT be a literal vision trouble or bad eye, but MORE OFTEN we should take these terms as ANALOGIES: blindness, for example, means not being able to SEE what's right there in front of a person; "vision" by analogy can mean insight, seeing things in their real light, etc; so, when using the older literature (and especially the literature relating to the fixed stars) use ANALOGY in deciphering what the texts are saying, particularly relative to sight, eyes, blindness, and related terms.

Re to retrograde: Vedic astrology considers the powers of a planet INCREASED when it is retrograde; now, I do lean somewhat in this direction as well, but I also consider that a planet is "self-conflicted" when it is retrograde, meaning that although its powers might be increased, there is also difficulty of various types, connnected with that retrograde planet.
 

Chrysalis

Well-known member
Refreshing this thread.

WOW Synchronicity or what...i am in awe here :tongue:

I was literally just about to open a thread on this, and at the same time was wondering where you had got to, as i hadn't seen you around here for a little while, and its you who ive learnt these degrees from.

I had this link of yours copied ready to paste http://twilightstarsong.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/matters-of-degree.html?m=1

Anyway thanks for refreshing the thread, as i have some questions. :biggrin:

Ive been using these degrees in horary with success, i am now also referring to them nataly, but nataly for some reason im unclear as to how they play out.

A chart im looking at she has venus in capricorn @ 21 degrees, which places her venus in a pitted degree, her venus is also tightly conjunct saturn, so how would this pitted degree apply to her venus, as being conjunct saturn to me its debilitated enough, how would the DF degree further debilitate this venus of hers ?

Infact if i read through this thread, i may find my answer.

I wish Bob would come back too, i never got the chance to meet him.
 
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conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
I've never used these before, apparently Bob Zemco was a proponent of them. Never seen a convincing demonstration of their usage either. I've always defaulted to the position that there is other things in the chart that explains a planet's effects.
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
These things always bothered me. The usage of minor dignities/debilities somehow cancel out essential dignities/debilities, or come close to it. These must be pretty significant to massively influence a planet's trajectory in a chart.
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
Well that's interesting. Would this person be able to make the same type of analysis without the power of hindsight?

I never really thought dignities just meant good or bad, but several factors lumped together to make a decision if something is effective or not. Ptolemy never uses dignities just by itself, but also other conditions that helps us make the determination.

That's why I was concerned about where the pitted/elevated degrees fit in the ladder of strength.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
It was more of a comment on what I've noticed with traditional practitioners, and when I say dignity I include the accidental kind in it, as well.

As to the determinations of the astrologer, maybe not, but the power of hindsight helps to falsify astrological axioms which I think is good for the art if it results in further refinements that make it more effective and powerfully predictive.

There is division on if maleficence is mitigated by dignity or not. Can't differentiate which of the old guys said what, but some seem to think that Mars and Saturn will have positive effects if in their signs and angular, while others prefer that they are in their signs but cadent.

I do like this individual's approach to chart interpretation though. Of the factors that he analyses, sign placement is only a minor factor, and not strong on it's own to make a judgement. This is at odds with both popular modern and traditional, since the former bases the majority of a planet's characteristic on the sign it's located in, while the latter judges a great deal of a planet's beneficence/power on if it is in it's house or an advantageous essential dignity.
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
I was thinking of it more theoretical . Can amassing all these minor dignities and concepts somehow compete with an essential dignity or debility. That type of thing.
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
I see, the medieval and renaissance astrologers seem to think so, if you go by the popularity of table of dignities and debilities. Based on how these degrees are spoken about in this thread, their effect is supposed to be pretty **** powerful. Truly, I have no opinion on that.
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
if malefic, their negative influence is transformed into at least a mild benefic influence

You tell me. Has Saturn been a boon to you? :innocent:
 

conspiracy theorist

Well-known member
I consider Saturn my greatest ally, like Israel.

I'd pull up your chart and look at your degrees but I have **** reception atm so I'll leave it for some other time.
 

Bunraku

Well-known member
One of the wisest things the admins did for this forum was come up with a very light mobile theme, so only text shows and nothing else too fancy.
 
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