Astrology Indicates Humans were Created by God

Opal said:

It is the Secret Book of John, I first read it in “The Nag Hamadi’s” Michael Meyers version

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katydid said:

You must be having some interesting transits, inspiring you to start these fascinating threads for us. I appreciate it, thanks.

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wilsontc said:

Opal,

Thanks for sending this! The middle section CLEARLY is tied to traditional astrology and suggests an astrological connection between humans, astrology, and creation.

Thanking you,

Tim

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wilsontc said:

All,

If human behavior was simply a random, natural process then you'd expect that humans would be filled with random chemicals that make them have various random feelings and motivations and they would uses these random feelings and motivations based on their upbringing. There would be no way to SEE these random feelings and motivations since they are RANDOM and so they vary unpredictably from person to person.

Now imagine you are God and you created humans. You would want your humans to be able to exist on their own and survive. However, if you want your humans to be able to develop and grow you'd need to give them free will to be able to handle the problems of life on their own. What is the best way to do that? If you simply program the same attitudes and behaviors in them they will all behave the same way. If you create a set of attitudes and behaviors and program those varieties of attitudes and behaviors in different people they STILL are limited to those attitudes and behaviors.

What you need is a "random generator" of something that changes CONSTANTLY and can be used to program constantly DIFFERING attitudes and behavior. So each human will have slightly varying attitudes and behavior from those around them and so MAXIMIZE their freewill. Humans would be programmed with certain attitudes and behavior but these attitudes and behavior would be assigned RANDOMLY with huge amounts of variety so the human race AS A WHOLE is open to doing all things possible.

What if you used the time of the humans first breath COMBINED with the position of the solar system at the time of that breath as a method to determine human attitude and behavior? The solar system is constantly changing positions and the time of the first breath is very different from one human to the next. Combining these two things: first breath and solar system positions gives you are PERFECT random generator to allow your humans (as a whole) to explore ALL possibilities in their life and allows them the fullest expression of their free will.

If human nature was natural, it would be caused by a random, undetermined combination of chemicals that can not be externally observed. The fact that a human's nature is seen clearly through aligning first breath with solar system position, suggests a PLANNED system for humans, which suggests a higher being which CREATED the system and started it going.

About God,

Tim

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wilsontc said:

Opal,

Thanks for sending this! The middle section CLEARLY is tied to traditional astrology
and suggests an astrological connection between humans, astrology, and creation.

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“..there has to be a balance..”

wilsontc said:

Thanking you,
Tim

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wilsontc said:

All,

If human behavior was simply a random, natural process then you'd expect that humans would be filled with random chemicals that make them have various random feelings and motivations and they would uses these random feelings and motivations based on their upbringing. There would be no way to SEE these random feelings and motivations since they are RANDOM and so they vary unpredictably from person to person.

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wilsontc said:

Now imagine you are God and you created humans.
You would want your humans to be able to exist on their own and survive.

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wilsontc said:

What if you used the time of the humans first breath COMBINED with the position of the solar system
at the time of that breath as a method to determine human attitude and behavior? The solar system is constantly changing

positions and the time of the first breath is very different from one human to the next. Combining these two things:

first breath and solar system positions gives you are PERFECT random generator to allow your humans (as a whole)
to explore ALL possibilities in their life and allows them the fullest expression of their free will.

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humans are LIMITED BY THEIR INTERDEPENDENCE on each other
as well as on their environment

Osamenor said:

So how do you explain the fact that the earliest astrologers did not believe in God in the Judeo-Christian sense, and often didn't even believe in the kind of deity that planned everything?

The Sumerians and the Babylonians and the Greeks were all polytheists. While they did believe in creator gods, some of those creators were very random and capricious. Their creation stories typically had some element of "the world was created by accident" in them.

Not only that, for all of those peoples, the astrological planets were themselves gods, or at least manifestations of gods. The god Mars and the planet Mars are one. The goddess Venus and the planet Venus are one. And so on.

The well known (to anyone who's studied Sumerian mythology) story of Inanna going down to the underworld was a description of the cycles of Venus. Inanna herself is Venus. The seven gates she passes through are the intersections of Venus's morning star/evening star patterns with the lunar cycle. Deep, intricate astrology, told as sacred story.

But these stories all came from cultures that saw a lot of randomness in the universe. While they had gods, their gods were not necessarily intentional about what they were doing. The idea that God intentionally made us and set us on our paths is entirely rooted in the monotheistic Abrahamic faiths, which are more recent developments than astrology and often don't have an easy relationship with astrology.

In short, to take anything as proof of God, first you have to define God. If astrology were proof of God by your definition, astrologers would have believed in that kind of God since time immemorial. But they haven't.

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Osamenor said:

If an astrologer does believe in that kind of God, and sees proof of it in astrology, that's not really proving
that humans were created by God, that's justifying your own beliefs.
Which does not mean your beliefs are wrong. But neither does it mean that your proof is definitive.

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in any event
No matter how capable any "..created human.." may be
no human can survive alone.

Particular humans depend on the community in which those humans live.
- the welfare of others brings about benefit or detriment

Opal said:

What if the ideals we were raised with are wrong?

What if the myth’s were a method to remember the entities and their traits, in story form, to be passed by word of mouth, and the many rewritings of them?

What if the entire universe is God, and all of the entities are gods of their own domains?

What if the God’s are the energy, of the positive and negative of each, denoting the charts that we read?

☺️😉☺️

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Osamenor said:

That's exactly the way a polytheistic worldview works.

Since astrology came from polytheistic cultures, it's rooted in that worldview.

Many ancient myths were actually a way to describe the changing heavens. This god overthrew that god = by precession, these stars became prominent and those stars that used to be prominent no longer were.

Even the story about Lucifer rebelling against God and being cast out of heaven (which is not biblical, contrary to popular belief) was originally about a change in what stars were seen in the sky.

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waybread said:

Tim, I take it that you are trying to posit an alternative to Darwin's theory of natural selection, notably the evolution of Homo sapiens. That's an interesting project, and I believe in God, but you cannot make your case by misrepresenting science.

Evolutionary biology does not teach that human biochemistry and behavior are random processes.

Laypeople are familiar with the term "survival of the fittest." Basically an organism's biological and physical environment offers certain necessities of life (like water,) but also exhibits various environmental constraints (like too much or too little water.) Environments are finite in terms of their ability to support various life forms. If we take a given species, some individual members of that species will be better or worse at obtaining life's necessities, often due to competition with other organisms. (In some cases, through cooperation.) The individual organisms that do the best job of obtaining life's necessities theoretically will survive to reproductive age, and then genetically or behaviorally pass on those survival traits to their offspring.

Life forms have been on the planet for a few billion years, so there is nothing totally random about phylogenesis. For example, you could trace the evolution of the eye from more primitive to more complex organisms and forms. The first known primitive eyes occurred about 541 million years ago, in now-extinct organisms known as trilobites. As we move up the evolutionary ladder to vertebrates, mammals, and primates, that's millions of years of natural selection for improvements in vision.

There is a name for random changes: mutations. Some of these make organisms better adapted to their environments, and thus better able to survive to reproductive age and to pass their traits to their offspring.

Similarly evolutionary biologists don't teach that humans are made up of "random chemicals." We share 98.7% of our DNA with chimpanzees and bonobos, our closest primate "cousins." We share large amounts of DNA with non-primate animals and even plants. https://thednatests.com/how-much-dna-do-humans-share-with-other-animals/ We share large amounts of DNA with species ancestral to modern humans, some of them now extinct.

"Free will" in an unmodified form simply does not exist. Neither does pure determinism that reduces you to a mechanical robot, merely playing out a predetermined program. The Catholic church adopted the concept of free will, but it has never existed in anything close to a pure form.

I hope you will take up the study of anthropology and archaeology in historical perspective, to get a better sense of the vast differences in human cultural practices. The time when you could clock humanities' "first breath" is becoming more and more complicated as we learn how many non-Homo sapiens hominids roamed the earth-- often simultaneously with out modern ancestors, and apparently interbreeding with them. Would you include Neanderthals and Denisovans?

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waybread said:

Another problem is that different cultures have construed "God" and His relationship to humanity so differently.

The ancient Mesopotamians (who invented astrology) believed that the gods created humanity to serve them and make religious sacrifices to them.

The problem of polytheism has been mentioned.

The irony is that some organized religions prune the diversity out of their populations as best they can. They want uniform, obedient, religiously orthodox congregations, in which women know their (subservient) place. They claim their religious authority comes from God.

Buddhism, one of the world's oldest and most followed religions, doesn't even have the concept of God or gods as we westerners understand them.

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