Debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo?

david starling

Well-known member
Isn't Saturn in detriment with Leo?

Traditionally, yes. In my 12/12 pattern, no.
Ptolemy had Saturn in Detriment in both Signs in which the Luminaries are Domicled, even though only one, :cancer:, is opposite Saturn's Domicle, Capricorn. Saturn in :cancer: is also in Detriment using 12/12, but not Saturn in Leo. Different pattern from 7/12.
 

petosiris

Banned
The five Ptolemaic ''dignities'' are the following, house, triangle, exaltation, term and proper face, all equal in power.

The five methods of predomination/rulership are house, triangle, exaltation, term and whole sign conjunction/aspect, again, all equal in power (+ 1).

Everything else is misattribution.

There are literally countless misattributions from the Medieval period, including the so-called ''Ptolemaic dignities'' including decans. So until someone shows one mention in the comparatively lengthy Tetrabiblos of the concept of detriment, it simply did not exist. According to Ptolemy, Saturn in fiery places, like Cancer, Leo and Virgo would be slightly weakened due to the heating season, but in Leo in particular it would rejoice, since it is the domicile and triangle of diurnal planets, from which he is able to help his sect-mates.
 

petosiris

Banned
What is called ''Ptolemaic table'' is usually a standard medieval dignity table, that simply replaces the Dorothean triplicities and Egyptian terms, with the Ptolemaic triplicities and one of the existing tabular variations of Ptolemy's terms.
 

david starling

Well-known member
There are literally countless misattributions from the Medieval period, including the so-called ''Ptolemaic dignities'' including decans. So until someone shows one mention in the comparatively lengthy Tetrabiblos of the concept of detriment, it simply did not exist. According to Ptolemy, Saturn in fiery places, like Cancer, Leo and Virgo would be slightly weakened due to the heating season, but in Leo in particular it would rejoice, since it is the domicile and triangle of diurnal planets, from which he is able to help his sect-mates.

Thanks! You are a gentleman(?:wink:) and a scholar(!).
 

david starling

Well-known member
How can I show that he did not know the concept if he never mentions it? You do understand the burden of proof and common sense right?

I trust your expertise. Who initiated the concept of Detriment? It seems to have become a "standard" description. Would you characterize it as Traditional or Modern?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
How can I show that he did not know the concept if he never mentions it?
You do understand the burden of proof and common sense right?
common sense is as follows
What is called ''Ptolemaic table''

is usually a standard medieval dignity table, that
simply replaces the Dorothean triplicities and Egyptian terms, with
the Ptolemaic triplicities and one of the existing tabular variations of Ptolemy's terms.
thanks for casting some light on the subject

modernists and beginner traditionalists are unaware of these facts
Thanks! You are a gentleman(?:wink:) and a scholar(!).
even if not Ptolemy :smile:
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I trust your expertise.

Who initiated the concept of Detriment?
It seems to have become a "standard" description.

Would you characterize it as Traditional or Modern?
you need to read Ptolemy :smile:

There really is no debate on what the traditional dignities are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_dignity

When these were determined, the outer planets weren't used yet, so
there has been some debate about Uranus and more about Neptune

and Pluto and whether they fit into the scheme.
 

petosiris

Banned
I trust your expertise. Who initiated the concept of Detriment? It seems to have become a "standard" description. Would you characterize it as Traditional or Modern?

It doesn't appear in Hellenistic astrology until very late, and in Indian at all (presumably because they never got it from the preceding). It exists as concept in some later Hellenistic authors as ''opposition'' (the aspect was called ''diameter''), but I am not sure whether it was deemed worse than fall, as it is with the majority of Arabs, Medieval and Renaissance astrologers. So it is ''traditional'' in this respect, just its early origins and theory (in my opinion) are in doubt.
 

petosiris

Banned
One hypothesis I may propose for its greater prevalence is that it offers an ''opposite'' bad placement for the good placement of domicile. However, Ptolemy treats bad placement with respect to the universe by examining whether the rulers of the domicile, exaltation, triangle and term are diurnal or nocturnal, as apparently did Antiochus and his followers. This theory and method was totally lost with the Arabs.
 

david starling

Well-known member
One hypothesis I may propose for its greater prevalence is that it offers an ''opposite'' bad placement for the good placement of domicile. However, Ptolemy treats bad placement with respect to the universe by examining whether the rulers of the domicile, exaltation, triangle and term are diurnal or nocturnal, as apparently did Antiochus and his followers. This theory and method was totally lost with the Arabs.

I like this rejection of the "if one is "good", the opposite must be somehow "bad". Saw one opinion that Exaltation itself, if not moderated by other factors, results in arrogance and a sense of unearned entitlement.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I like this rejection of the "if one is "good", the opposite must be somehow "bad".
Saw one opinion that Exaltation itself, if not moderated by other factors,
results in arrogance and a sense of unearned entitlement.
and so explain how this relates to
our debate about exaltation of Pluto: Aries, Pisces or Leo :smile:
 
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