Alcoholism

Thank you Kingsley for such a beautiful answer to my question this makes perfect sense... I really appreciate your answer

Belgianmoonguy said:

Alcohol a Fire drug?
Never thought of that...

I always thought every drug is associated with the element 'water'
Alcohol i would have associated with Pisces or with persons with afflicted personal planets in Capricorn...

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Mars inconjunct Neptune is a classic addiction aspect. It denotes health issues and alcoholism is a genetic and physical disease as well as mental.
It doese belong to the water planets and water signs, yes. Also 12th house.

MarieCamery said:

YES that is so true!!! Unfortunatly for someone who needs to watch two children and has been know to fall asleep The moon in his chart is leo. The chart ruler neptune, pisces asc. I think Jupiter may be in the 12th house as well, it fits better there. Oh no Neptune and the moon also have a square to each other and other hard aspects there. I am definatly looking for another babysitter!!!

Marie

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I agree and you are lucky to have the insights of astrological charts to be able to see the dangers in those looking after your children.

There is enough to cause alarm and good luck with the next babysitter.

neptune conj MC= alcoholic/drug user...or musically/artistic inclined profession

my ex was an alcoholic and he had neptune rising

noticed moon/neptune (hard aspects) like to escape with alcohol, drugs

neptune in the 3rd (hard aspects) as well.

I may have found a good sitter yesterday, I just met her though,don't know her chart either, but I have a better feeling about her. She told me outright she doesn't drink or smoke. As far as my loving husband (yes, my prevoius babysitter on the weekends) He is a good guy but I know he nods off , even sleepwalks at times(even when he doesn't drink) so I am changing my schedule. He is a very hardworker (mars in 6th ,Sun saturn conj), he works all week, so I give him the benefit of the doubt, let him have the weekends off.
Marie

Belgianmoonguy said:

Alcohol a Fire drug?
Never thought of that...

I always thought every drug is associated with the element 'water'
Alcohol i would have associated with Pisces or with persons with afflicted personal planets in Capricorn...

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Yes Neptune, Pisces, 12th house, Cancer, Moon and sometimes Scorpio and Pluto for alcoholism. Not fire or other element. Although Capricorn is associated with alcohol and can be collectors, it is the maturing and ageing of vintage wines that attract more. The keeping of cellars underground etc. The connection with agriculture and farming......

Kingsley said:

Capricorns can tend to be hard on themselves. The inner speak for the Capricorns is "get to work" "you are only ok if you work hard" etc. The hard and relentless - traditional Father has left his prescence in the early development of the Capricorn infant. Perhaps Dad was always at work and the child didnt think he was important enough? Unless that is, he went to work and worked hard.

Over time, maintaining this kind of driver in life the person becomes detached from who they really are, the other points in their chart that beg creativity and expression in the light of following the traditional Fathers "demands". Drinking is a way of disconnecting the driver messages to work or try hard. The Capricorn person feels free from that personality script after a drink. After a while they are drinking a bottle of scotch a night.

That is one story about Capricorns and drinking. Its ok for a Cappy to do things their own way and listen to their own needs in life.

kingsley

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I would say that has to be other watery aspects for the alcoholism to develop. Sure Cap likes a drink to unwind from their work and their drive to reach the top and gain authority and respect...... which can place heavy demands on them and sometimes expectations from the father image. But Capricorn and Saturn are basically disciplined, conservative and proper behaviour type of influences rather.

I have Neptune ruling my chart and it is in the 8th house of obsessions conjunct Venus and dont drink or have any drug habits at all. This I feel is because of the sextile to Saturn which gives me caution and discipline. I have a drink very occasionally on special occasions but can take it or leave it.

There are many reasons for alcoholism Claire. One doesnt need to be a caparicorn person to give themself a hard time with regard to achievements.

Seeing as we were talking about the "Capricorn" astrology sign and the emphasis on the Sun placement there are many other factors we have not discussed in the thread.

The Capricorn Sun in the persons chart represents the Father's role modelling and that part of ones identity they express in their own way. There are many Dads who might be represented by the Cappy Sun and their sense of boundaries, work ethics and authoritory impart very good values to a person.

kingsley

Hmmm,

I haven't read the whole thread since it's quite long. But I did scan through a number of posts and it seems to me that the thread could also be entitled "escapism" since a lot of the info in here describe how and why people tend to escape reality. Alcohol is one means of doing that. Food is another, and so is workaholism.

A lot of good insights, especially for me with the Moon in the 12th and Neptune Rx being the most aspected planet in my chart.

Nora
(formerly known as sorehearted)

Yes, one of the biggest loves of my life is a very old soul with lots of kindness and wisdom - but can't cope with this world very well - escapes through alcoholism.

He has a tight Mercury(r)/Neptune conjunction (1*orb) in Scorpio in a duplicated 11th house. Mercury rules his 7th and 9th houses. Neptune rules his 3rd. Jupiter rules his Sag Ascendant, and it is in the 1st, in Capricorn. Also, the Mercury(r)/Neptune conjunction in Scorp/duplicated 11th is loosely sextile (6*) his Ascendant ruler, Jupiter in Cap, in 1st.


(Also, has strong Scotch/Irish descent. His father was a raging alcoholic, as well, although not nearly as advanced a soul.)

What would seem to be the psychological factors inherent in these placements?

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It's been over 2 months, so I thought I'd give it a bump. No one ever replied to this. How would one interpret the psychological factors, etc as described by the houses Mercury/Neptune rules? In other words, what do all the placements I described have to do with his drinking?

Genetics, shame and guilt. Exhaust these possibilities in any person's life when studying addiction.

People use alcohol and drugs to dull their emotions. WHY they do this is in every chart of every alcoholic. In fact, probably 9 out of 10 people are addicted to something, because we all have a Neptune.... and Neptune's job is to anihiliate us... to make us into pure spirt.... to destroy our bodies. And it uses every sneaky method to do this.

It will lie to us, make us lie to others and to ourselves. Neptune is the "great lie."

Bill W.s chart, as I remember it, is VERY interesting to study.
LIN

Sounds like someone thinks Neptune is a malefic too!

I don't have time to read all of these posts, but will do soon. But I browsed through the study and was wondering if they publish how many charts they looked at, how accurate birth times were, what age range or birth locations they included (as variant birth times and places could effect generational signs and aspects, and locations might affect houses and house systems?) .

And then based on that, what the statistical chance of a person having any one of those signatures was. Knowing that might make these signatures more or less powerful. More powerful if the non-alcoholics have statistically lower numbers of signatures. Less powerful if the laws of statistics dictate that the differences in the study aren't above chance. I'm not good at math so I can't figure it out myself.

Lin said:

Genetics, shame and guilt. Exhaust these possibilities in any person's life when studying addiction.

People use alcohol and drugs to dull their emotions. WHY they do this is in every chart of every alcoholic. In fact, probably 9 out of 10 people are addicted to something, because we all have a Neptune.... and Neptune's job is to anihiliate us... to make us into pure spirt.... to destroy our bodies. And it uses every sneaky method to do this.

It will lie to us, make us lie to others and to ourselves. Neptune is the "great lie."

Bill W.s chart, as I remember it, is VERY interesting to study.
LIN

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I am a great fan of choice-centered astrologer Steven Forrest. He sees every planet as having two natures: the "teacher" and the "trickster." People with difficult aspects from Neptune to a personal planet, notably to one's sun, are likely to experience the "trickster" face of Neptune, who operates as Lin described. Spirituality can offer Neptunian escapism, as most cult leaders who turned out to be frauds have exemplified. Forrest wrote that no planet is in our chart just to hurt us.

People with challenging aspects from Neptune may be able to learn from the "teacher" but they will have to work at it and make conscious choices.

But a well-aspected Neptune, or a Neptune construed as "the teacher" can confer artistic ability (esp. in harmonious aspect to Venus) and a healthy, productive spirituality.

I think Neptune deals in the realm of transcendence. Sometimes ordinary dirt-and-bugs reality isn't good enough for Neptunians. An alcoholic buzz can be a transcendent experience.

Neptune dissolves what it touches. Good for creative types, who need to create an imaginative world. Not so good if squaring Saturn in your "money house."

Neptune deals with illusions and disillusionment. The fantastic drug high followed by horrible withdrawal symptoms. The romance that seemed too good to be true--and was.

But without Neptune, how could we enjoy a Harry Potter book, the music of Debussy, or impressionistic art? That glass of cabernet would lose its magic, and the lit candles would just be bits of fire on top of wax sticks that drip on the tablecloth.
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Freedom Lover, can you post the chart? I find the verbal description hard to visualize, and we don't know what else might be going on.

Neptune IS the dissolver. Dissolve something and then tell me where it is. It's "gone."

Neptune rules "oblivion." Think about it. The more powerful Neptune is in a chart, the more Neptunian a person is. What does it mean to be "Neptunian?"

Neptune rules delusion, confusion, obsession, fear, phobia, escapism, denial, self-deception, the "con", hallucinations, religious fanaticism, martyrism, hyper-sensitivity (for better or worse), distortion of fact or reality, lying, drug, alcohol and behavioral addiction, oblivion, living a lie, and, with Pluto connections, "co-dependence."

Yes, it also rules creativity, idealism, compassion, talent and appreciation of art and music, imagination and selflessness....
but....
in order for the best of Neptune to be front and center, there has to be great balance in the chart. And, as we know, even great artists of all types have been ultimate victims of Neptune.

No... the only weapon we have against Neptune is Pluto is.... ultimate consciousness and truth. Being scrupulously honest with ones self and others.

Hypervigilance. I've known myriad addicts in my life and astrological career. I've seen people 10 to 20 years clean and sober go down the tubes in one day of forgetting....(a Neptunian word) their need for vigilance.

If there is a metaphorical devil, it's name is Neptune.
It IS the Christ and the anti-christ. It's not for nothing that Pisces opposite is Virgo.... mind.... and hypervigilance.
LIN

waybread said:

But without Neptune, how could we enjoy a Harry Potter book, the music of Debussy, or impressionistic art? That glass of cabernet would lose its magic, and the lit candles would just be bits of fire on top of wax sticks that drip on the tablecloth.

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That made me smile.

Waybread said:

Freedom Lover, can you post the chart? I find the verbal description hard to visualize, and we don't know what else might be going on.

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Will do.

Yes, one of the biggest loves of my life is a very old soul with lots of kindness and wisdom - but can't cope with this world very well - escapes through alcoholism.

He has a tight Mercury(r)/Neptune conjunction (1*orb) in Scorpio in a duplicated 11th house. Mercury rules his 7th and 9th houses. Neptune rules his 3rd. Jupiter rules his Sag Ascendant, and it is in the 1st, in Capricorn. Also, the Mercury(r)/Neptune conjunction in Scorp/duplicated 11th is loosely sextile (6*) his Ascendant ruler, Jupiter in Cap, in 1st.

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How would one interpret the psychological factors, etc as described by the houses Mercury/Neptune rules? In other words, what do all the placements I described have to do with his drinking?

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View Chart of Friend with Alcoholism
(Click on image to enlarge)

Thanks alot, Waybread! Hopefully you and maybe some others, too, can give me some insight with this.

FL

waybread said:

Neptune dissolves what it touches. Good for creative types, who need to create an imaginative world. Not so good if squaring Saturn in your "money house."

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I hope this isn't speaking from personal experience Waybread. If so, the drinks are on me :cheers:

I think Neptune is the god of Aesthetic Transcendence, which has many inherently good qualities but is fundamentally humanist. It is about learning to love ourselves, and create our own emotional ideals.

But Spiritual Transcendance, I think that comes from Pluto or Jupiter, or at any rate not Neptune. Spiritual Transcendance is about accepting and loving anything, about the truth, in all its bitter and harsh reality. So the romantic candle is of equal worth to the dripping wax with fire and an increasingly stuffy and carbon dioxide filled room in it. Both are sources of wonder, pain, and ultimately perception/ reality.

Neptune cannot help but romanticise, glamourise, sentimentalise, and pastiche itself. In many ways it is fundamentally looking at itself, which in a way is almost a mirror to the ego.

So in that way, maybe Neptune does have Leo and Piscean tendencies, and the humanist association would fit in with the Aquarian polarity.

Really interesting insights, everyone!

Lin, thanks for your poetic and insightful deliniation of Neptune as "trickster". Yet I think Steven Forrest is right: no planet is in our charts just to hurt us.

Interesting to think about Pluto as the "antidote" to Neptune. Pluto deals with ruthless honesty, but the Neptune/Pluto sextile is so common that it is hard to know what to make of these planets' relationship. I would have suggested that Saturn is the antidote to a dysfunctional Neptune. I no longer think of Saturn as a malefic, but as Dr. Reality Check. But maybe a lot depends upon the individual chart.

Sundance, I have Neptune in the first house, which I have read about, correctly in my case, as conferring a kind of life-long identity crisis. But the older I get, the less troublesome this becomes, whether due to more life experience or a more outer-directed focus, I am not sure. Neptune squares Jupiter in my 4th, so I sometimes think my luck dissolves, but actually, I think I have had an OK life, all and all. So I see this aspect as indicating biting off more than I can chew--thinking I can do more (Jupiter=expansion) than I really can or will. Arguably Neptune makes a couple of very wide trines in my chart, but others would see themn as out-of-orb. In terms of drugs or alcohol, I don't do the former; and we have wine with dinner. So I don't see Neptune as quite so wretched in my life. Thankfully, he's left my 2nd house relatively stable.

In conventional astrology, Jupiter rules conventional religion and theology; Saturn rules ecclesiastical authority, and Neptune rules mysticism--but of the other-worldly variety. I think it is all too rare to find religious, spiritual, or mystical people who don't try to isolate themselves from society, but who plunge themselves into the real world, warts and all. But that was surely the message of Jesus and the goal of some faith-based organizations today.

freedomlover, it is hard for me to see alcoholism in your friend's chart. Neptunian, sure, with that wide Neptune/Mercury/sun conjunction. But Neptune really isn't badly aspected. One thing I note is that you used Regiomontanus houses: and in any of the common house systems except whole-sign and equal house, as you know, one can get intercepted and duplicate houses. I find the problem of intercepted houses really interesting. The first thing I looked for was the house that Neptune rules, but he's got Pisces intercepted. Then, of course, his Pluto/NN/PofF in Virgo in the 9th are intercepted as well. These can be entities in his life that just don't get a lot of "traction."

People drink for different reasons. Alcoholism is an addiction, so once people start for whatever reason, they may be unable to stop without a fairly fairly serious intervention like a residential treatment program. Has your friend ever said why he drinks?

With Uranus square sun, he may drink just to relieve the pressure.

I am not at all intuitive r psychic--but I just happened to wonder. If your friend is, indeed, an old soul, could it be that he has a kind of mission or destiny that frightens him, and that he tries to ignore by drinking?

freedomlover, it is hard for me to see alcoholism in your friend's chart. Neptunian, sure, with that wide Neptune/Mercury/sun conjunction. But Neptune really isn't badly aspected. One thing I note is that you used Regiomontanus houses: and in any of the common house systems except whole-sign and equal house, as you know, one can get intercepted and duplicate houses. I find the problem of intercepted houses really interesting. The first thing I looked for was the house that Neptune rules, but he's got Pisces intercepted. Then, of course, his Pluto/NN/PofF in Virgo in the 9th are intercepted as well. These can be entities in his life that just don't get a lot of "traction."

People drink for different reasons. Alcoholism is an addiction, so once people start for whatever reason, they may be unable to stop without a fairly fairly serious intervention like a residential treatment program. Has your friend ever said why he drinks?

With Uranus square sun, he may drink just to relieve the pressure.

I am not at all intuitive r psychic--but I just happened to wonder. If your friend is, indeed, an old soul, could it be that he has a kind of mission or destiny that frightens him, and that he tries to ignore by drinking?

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Thanks so much for replying, Waybread. I always value your insights.

The reason I used Regiomontanus houses ( instead of the usual Placidus) is because Lilith shows up in the 8th in Regio, vs 7th in Placidus. The description of Lilith in the 8th seemed to fit him far better. Also Chiron in Aquarius shows up on cusp of third with Regio. That seems to fit him ever so much better than in the 2nd house. Everything else in the charts remains pretty much the same, including the intercepted houses.

Yes, I know a very big reason he drinks. He had an NDE when he was younger after a motorcycle accident. Ever since then he has been extremely psychic ( he was pretty much already ) and also has had a case of social anxiety/PTSD that has gotten steadily worse over the years. His father died, and he returned home to live with his mother and take care of the family home and land. About this same time, he was struck with a bad case of environmental poisoning. This took him years to recover from (of course a lot longer since he was drinking). The combination of being so sick and the ever-increasing PTSD/social anxiety kept him pretty confined to his home - with his mother.

His mother has a stellium in Sagittarius and is a controlling, religious zealot. He is very "New Age" in beliefs and also has a lot of psychic/healing gifts. She is scared of his psychic gifts and thinks he's going to hell because of his psychic gifts and new age beliefs. She's constantly hounding him to "get saved" and go to her church. She has absolutely no respect for his free will and crossing his personal boundaries at every chance she gets. She even refused to pray that "God's will be done" in his life. It's her will or no will. He drinks as a combination of dealing with her control ( she can't stop him from drinking) and an escape. His self-worth is very low to begin with ( due to an abusive father who contantly told him how worthless he was) and his mother's "you're going to hell if you don't change your religion" is grinding on him. He was raised in a "hellfire and brimstone" Baptist church. It's hard to get alot of that stuff out, even when you become a "New Ager". A lot of people are very hard on him because of his drinking, and he's become quite an object of derision. I look at what he's having to live with, and go, "ya know? I'd drink, too" ( and I've never used alcohol as an escape, but if I had to live with her.....)

And, yes, Waybread, the "mission that scares him" is that he's destined to be a healer and New Age teacher. He's afraid to do that because of his mother's pressure and the subconscious fear that he just might go to hell if he pursued that direction.

Maybe one of the more unique reasons that someone drinks.....