Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

isismagdalenne · Apr 9, 2011

I could be mistaken, but I thought I read somewhere that mars combust is not much affected because its choleric quality isnt much bothered by the fire of the sun....true? (I have mars combust in cappy 5th)
And to the OP, you shouldnt equate tradition with just the "bad" in your chart. You dont think modern will show you any bad? Is it wise to live under rose colored glasses and have people only tell you what you want to hear? Oh no your so wonderful and gracful and have nothing in your way! BAM!!! you fall in a hole you couldve side stepped!
Plus, you should learn what your talking about before making assumptive statements. If you are asking about combustion, you are obviously studying all over the place and mixing modern and traditional concepts. It isnt something to be judged right out of the gates. You have to study everything and can only judge the merits of each after a FULL understanding, which can take many YEARS. Otherwise, your not serious and just playing around....in which you wouldve wasted the time of people who have alot of knowledge to give, like Olivia who generously took the time to describe alot for you ...just to have you turn around immediately after and basically say (paraphrased) I dont like your bad poo poo traditional stuffy stuff!

dr. farr · Apr 9, 2011

Several of the old-time authors made qualifying statements regarding how combustion affected the various planets; some did make that statement you mentioned about Mars, others (like Ibn Ezra) made similar statements regarding Mercury (which never more than 28 degrees from the Sun at any time) Others (Firmicus Maternus for example) gave varying degree orbs of combustion, depending upon the planet involved. It was during the post 13th century time that European authors made a generic combustion orb for all planets.

I follow an element-based consideration regarding combustion:
-Water and Earth are very much affected by Fire (Sun) BUT are also highly resistant to the Fire Element: therefore Moon and Venus are especially affected by combustion but are also very resistant to it:
...so for the Moon and Venus I take the orb of combustion at 3 degrees
-Cold and dry Saturn and Mercury are moderately affected by Fire (Sun) but, because of their coldness, are also moderately resistant to it...so for Saturn and Mercury I take the orb of combustion at 4 degrees
-Warm and moist Jupiter (Air) is affinitive to Fire (Sun) in its warmth, but resistant to it in its moisture: therefore Jupiter is less affected by combustion than, say Moon or Venus, but is somewhat less resistant to Fire than Earth (Saturn, Mercury) and definitely less resistant than Water (Venus, Moon)...so for Jupiter I take the orb of combustion at 5 degrees
-Hot and dry Mars (Fire) is most affinitive to the Sun, and therefore will co-flame with it ("combust" with it) more than any other (traditional) planet; yet at the same time it will be hardly affected by the combust state, really will be more like a double-fire situation, mixing its martial influences with the solar one:...so for Mars I take the orb of combustion at from 6 to even as much as 8 degrees.

Following an elemental allocation to the outer planets, I consider the orb of combustion for Uranus (Air) to be similar to that of Jupiter, of Neptune (Water) to that of Venus, of Pluto (Fire) to that of Mars...

Thinking about the OP's original question, can a planet be in (longitudinal) conjunction with the Sun without also being combust, using the orbs of combustion which I follow, and the solar orb of conjunction which I follow (6 degrees) I would say:
-yes, its possible that the Moon, Venus, Mercury, Saturn and Jupiter (as well as Uranus and Neptune) COULD be in conjunction with the Sun WITHOUT also being combust, but that Mars (and Pluto) could NOT be in conjunction with the Sun without also being combust.

serafin5 · Apr 9, 2011

Question: How does one find out if a planet is 17min from the Sun making it Cazimi? Also, since the Sun and Mars have compatible energies would the Cazimi energy affect the conjunction much? (My Sun and Mars are extremely close but not sure by how many min.)

Thanks, Serafin5 :smile:

Kuntuzangmo · Apr 9, 2011

dr. farr said:
I follow an element-based consideration regarding combustion:

-Warm and moist Jupiter (Air) Why are you signifying Jupiter as an air sign? Why not fire? is affinitive to Fire (Sun) in its warmth, but resistant to it in its moisture: therefore Jupiter is less affected by combustion than, say Moon or Venus, but is somewhat less resistant to Fire than Earth (Saturn, Mercury) and definitely less resistant than Water (Venus, Moon)...so for Jupiter I take the orb of combustion at 5 degrees
-Hot and dry Mars (Fire) [/B] is most affinitive to the Sun, and therefore will co-flame with it ("combust" with it) more than any other (traditional) planet; yet at the same time it will be hardly affected by the combust state, really will be more like a double-fire situation, mixing its martial influences with the solar one:...so for Mars I take the orb of combustion at from 6 to even as much as 8 degrees.

Following an elemental allocation to the outer planets, I consider the orb of combustion for Uranus (Air) to be similar to that of Jupiter, of Neptune (Water) to that of Venus, of Pluto (Fire) And why signifying Pluto as a fire sign and not a water sign? to that of Mars...

dhundhun · Apr 9, 2011

serafin5 said:
Question: How does one find out if a planet is 17min from the Sun making it Cazimi? Also, since the Sun and Mars have compatible energies would the Cazimi energy affect the conjunction much? (My Sun and Mars are extremely close but not sure by how many min.)

Thanks, Serafin5

You have to make your chart. In your chart they are 42 minutes away.

dhundhun · Apr 9, 2011

Oren said:
how would combustion affect a conjunction happening in the same sign and house? would the effect be less visible then? for instance, I have sun conjunct venus 9 degrees 38 minutes, both sun & venus in taurus and in 5th house. is there a sort of cancelling out going on here? or does it make anything stronger? weaker? or emphasized/weakened? it makes me wonder if, with venus' power being transferred to the sun by combustion, how much more I should be trying to align my life with what my sun ultimately is or wants instead of fighting it, a side effect maybe of both my sun and venus in opposition to mars...

In this chart, Venus is applying Sun and it is 9:38 degrees behind Sun.
But in between Venus is opposed by Saturn. Influence of Saturn on Venus is going to be so much that Venus conjunct Sun or Venus combust are insignificant.

Saturn steals the game. It makes Venus difficult or ineffective to reach Sun to make any influence.

dhundhun · Apr 9, 2011

SniperBomber328 said:
This question just dawned on me like just today. I was looking at the definitions of Combust and Cazami, and then back at my chart to see if there were any planets combust in mine.
Yes there was Jupiter, but then I realized how it made a Conjunction to my Sun as well. Then I looked at the orb of Conjunctions for the sun, and realized, is every planet in conjunct to the sun as well combust?

I found it strange, as a lot of people always say that any planet conjunct the sun is good, especially Jupiter (although some disagree), since ix expands the personality.

Jupiter is combust. Jupiter will transfer some of its power to Sun, but itself won't be able to show powers (2nd house and 5th house becomes weak and can exert binding influence).

I can give examples to explain - money earned but spent on sickness; found love, but it is a liability, got admission to a good university, but could not join due to lack of money, etc. They are just examples don't relate to chart.

When it becomes beneficial? Changing priorities. For example, money and love are not priorities, you get more time for what you want and then much depends in your hand. I feel, with this natal chart, a person can rise much.

dr. farr · Apr 9, 2011

Kuntuzangmo said:
dr. farr said:

I follow an element-based consideration regarding combustion:

-Warm and moist Jupiter (Air) Why are you signifying Jupiter as an air sign? Why not fire? is affinitive to Fire (Sun) in its warmth, but resistant to it in its moisture: therefore Jupiter is less affected by combustion than, say Moon or Venus, but is somewhat less resistant to Fire than Earth (Saturn, Mercury) and definitely less resistant than Water (Venus, Moon)...so for Jupiter I take the orb of combustion at 5 degrees
-Hot and dry Mars (Fire) [/B] is most affinitive to the Sun, and therefore will co-flame with it ("combust" with it) more than any other (traditional) planet; yet at the same time it will be hardly affected by the combust state, really will be more like a double-fire situation, mixing its martial influences with the solar one:...so for Mars I take the orb of combustion at from 6 to even as much as 8 degrees.

Following an elemental allocation to the outer planets, I consider the orb of combustion for Uranus (Air) to be similar to that of Jupiter, of Neptune (Water) to that of Venus, of Pluto (Fire) And why signifying Pluto as a fire sign and not a water sign? to that of Mars...

Click to expand...

Relative to Jupiter, I am following the Greco/Roman- though-Reformation era authors* in assigning Jupiter to the Air element (Air element = the qualities of warmth and moistness) In Chinese 5 Element astrology Jupiter is assigned to the Wood "element" (which in many ways is equivalent to our Western Air element qualities)

Relative to Pluto I follow the earlier Modernist assignment of that planet to similarity with Mars and the element of Fire; I have followed similar authors (Charles Carter for example) in the elemental allocation of Neptune (similar to Venus and the Water element) and Uranus (the Air element) However, the allocation of the outers to elements is definitely an open question, and I am only outlining my own working model in the above post, regarding the outers and the elements.

*also the alchemists

Kuntuzangmo · Apr 10, 2011

Ah ok.
Thanks.

tsmall · Sep 4, 2011

dr. farr said:
There are a couple of other ways (beside Cazimi) a planet can be "conjunct" the Sun yet free from combustion:
1) when the planet and the Sun are "conjunct by latitude" as the oldtimers called it (Al-Biruni, etc): that is, when the Sun and the planet are within about 1 degree (to 1.5 degrees) of declination (both either North or South of the ecliptic) In this circumstance the planet and the Sun might well be quite distant in longidtude and not necessarily either combust nor even under the sunbeams...

2) when the planet and the Sun are "conjunct by nature", a type of conjunction fully recognized as such by the ancients (and even as late as the Renaissance period) in which the Sun and the planet each occupy the exact degree in equipollent signs: for example, say Sun is @ 20 Aries and Jupiter is @ 10 Pisces: they are "conjunct by nature" because each planet is exactly the same distance from the "Line of Truth" (the Aries/Libra line); the Sun and Jupiter in this example are in fact the same as being either longitudinally conjunct or conjunct in latitude (Parallel in Declination), but, of course, Jupiter is nowhere near combust or under the sunbeams.

These concepts go back a long time:
-conjunct in latitude to at least 400 AD
-equipollent conjunction (conjunct by nature) to even earlier Greco/Roman times

Parallel of Declination is applied, strangely enough, more in Modernist astrology than in Traditionalist practice...Conjunct by nature (equipollent conjunction) has been forgotten by almost all practitioners, except perhaps a few of the neo-Hellenistic school.

dr. farr, would this work if both planets are on the same side of the "Line of Truth?" For example, if Sun is at 2*15' Libra and Moon is at 27*46' Pisces? Actually, I have recently read something else that leads me to this question. If the given example exists, and both Sun and Moon are within 1* of the same declination (33'), and within 1* of the same lattitude (36') this would mean conjunction by both lattitude/declination, and by distance from the "Line of Truth?" I ask because I am trying to understand my own Sun/Moon. Sun in Libra cannot be opposed Moon in Pisces by sign, and yet, Sun at 2*15' Libra on 9/25/1969 and Moon at 27*46' Pisces on that day were less than a few hrs away from a lunar eclipse. Should this be read as a conjunction of Sun/Moon?

astretina · Sep 21, 2014

dr. farr said:
There are a couple of other ways (beside Cazimi) a planet can be "conjunct" the Sun yet free from combustion:
1) when the planet and the Sun are "conjunct by latitude" as the oldtimers called it (Al-Biruni, etc): that is, when the Sun and the planet are within about 1 degree (to 1.5 degrees) of declination (both either North or South of the ecliptic) In this circumstance the planet and the Sun might well be quite distant in longidtude and not necessarily either combust nor even under the sunbeams...

spot on, the sun and the planet must also be in parallel of declination (max 2degree orb in declination, unless it is declination above 20 degrees north and south then you must lower the orbs to minutes)

use astronomical software such as stellarium to see if the sun truly did consume the planet

i would aply this also to cazimi, it's not cazimi if they are not in parallel of declination, especially if the planet is far from the ecliptic (chech the latitude value, sun is always 0 in geocentric astrology)

i have sun mars combustion, 2 degrees orb in longitude, 43 minutes orb in declination

i must say im not a fan of planet being combust, if the sun isnt placed well the malefic influences shall outnumber the benefic

JUPITERASC · Sep 21, 2014

astretina said:
spot on, the sun and the planet must also be in parallel of declination
(max 2degree orb in declination, unless it is declination above 20 degrees north and south then you must lower the orbs to minutes)

use astronomical software such as stellarium to see if the sun truly did consume the planet

i would aply this also to cazimi, it's not cazimi if they are not in parallel of declination, especially if the planet is far from the ecliptic (chech the latitude value, sun is always 0 in geocentric astrology)

i have sun mars combustion, 2 degrees orb in longitude, 43 minutes orb in declination

i must say im not a fan of planet being combust, if the sun isnt placed well the malefic influences shall outnumber the benefic

tsmall said:
dr. farr, would this work if both planets are on the same side of the "Line of Truth?"
For example, if Sun is at 2*15' Libra
and
Moon is at 27*46' Pisces?
Actually, I have recently read something else that leads me to this question.
If the given example exists, and both Sun and Moon are within 1* of the same declination (33'),
and within 1* of the same lattitude (36')
this would mean conjunction by both lattitude/declination,
and
by distance from the "Line of Truth?"
I ask because I am trying to understand my own Sun/Moon.
Sun in Libra cannot be opposed Moon in Pisces by sign,
and yet, Sun at 2*15' Libra on 9/25/1969 and Moon at 27*46' Pisces
on that day
were less than a few hrs away from a lunar eclipse.
Should this be read as a conjunction of Sun/Moon?

Sun and Moon can be parallel AND in oppostion at a lunar eclipse :smile:

JUPITERASC said:
Your natal moon is at 27 Pisces 51
whereas the Moon on 25 September 1950 (even when we re-adjust the Ascendant to 12 Libra)
has only got as far as 24 Pisces 0' 58" just three degrees away from the position of your natal moon.

However, always remember clock
and/or
calender time
differ from 'star time'...
'star time' is far more accurate in terms of astrological cycles.

1. ~ The Moon has literally just passed from the pitted degree of 23 Pisces

and

2. ~ In the hours preceding a lunar eclipse
the moon is approaching closer and closer to a parallel with the Sun
until the parallel is exact at the exact opposition
(yet 'as if conjunction' caused by the eclipse situation)
of the Sun and Moon.

astretina · Sep 21, 2014

that happens when the planets are close to the 0 aries-libra, 0 degrees Northern or Southern declination (equinox)

it doesnt mean much, you still delineate it as a lunar eclipse, only the moon still hasnt reached the exact degree of opposition (the eclipse degree),

if you move that chart few hours onward when the moon reaches aries it will have the opposite declination of the sun (contra-parallel)

so an astrologer is looking at a lunar eclipse that still hasnt perfected, but the moon is in antiscia with the sun Sun at 2*15' Libra on 9/25/1969 and Moon at 27*46' Pisces

libra and pisces see each other, signs of equal powers, it doesnt matter you are looking at an occultation which is what an eclipse is, the two planets are merged, but sign wise the native has moon in pisces....

contrast this with planets out of bounds, high up declination wise,

http://www.lunarliving.org/astrology/outofbounds-transit-declinations.html

JUPITERASC · Sep 21, 2014

astretina said:
that happens when the planets are close to the 0 aries-libra, 0 degrees Northern or Southern declination (equinox)

it doesnt mean much, you still delineate it as a lunar eclipse, only the moon still hasnt reached the exact degree of opposition (the eclipse degree),

There are differing opinions regarding the meaning :smile:

dr. farr said:
JUPITERASC has rendered an exceptional explanation of the factors involved here
relative to this natal Sun/Moon situation!!

astretina said:
if you move that chart few hours onward
when the moon reaches aries
it will have the opposite declination of the sun (contra-parallel)

Not possible to 'move the chart a few hours onward'
BECAUSE
it is a natal chart

astretina said:
....so an astrologer is looking at a lunar eclipse that still hasnt perfected, but the moon is in antiscia with the sun Sun at 2*15' Libra on 9/25/1969 and Moon at 27*46' Pisces

libra and pisces see each other, signs of equal powers, it doesnt matter you are looking at an occultation which is what an eclipse is, the two planets are merged, but sign wise the native has moon in pisces....

contrast this with planets out of bounds, high up declination wise,

http://www.lunarliving.org/astrology/outofbounds-transit-declinations.html

venuschild · Sep 21, 2014

The Traditional, Ancient, and Medieval authorities say unless less than 17 minutes it is combust when less than 8.5 degrees.

Zadkiel, a 19th century Modern writer who used a lot of Lilly in his works did not believe in Cazimi, he thought it was BUNK!

dhundhun · Sep 21, 2014

venuschild said:
The Traditional, Ancient, and Medieval authorities say unless less than 17 minutes it is combust when less than 8.5 degrees.

Zadkiel, a 19th century Modern writer who used a lot of Lilly in his works did not believe in Cazimi, he thought it was BUNK!

Sun's angular diameter is about 31 minutes to 33 minutes. A planet less than 17 minutes away from Sun has some probability to be within Sun's disc viewed from earth.

Due planet on different declination, a planet might be more than 17 minutes away even if they are in exact conjunction. In example below, due to declination they are 1 degree 8 minute away.

Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:20:11AM (DT -8:00 GMT)
Sun - 28Lib10 (declination -11:34')
Venus - 28Lib10 (declination -10:26')

Some experts would consider it to be Venus Cazimi (because Venus is in exact conjunction) but some experts would consider it not to be Cazimi (because even if in conjunction, it is away for Sun by one degree and 8 minutes).

Let's take example of Sun and Moon. Solar eclipse usually happens twice a year. So out of 12 Sun/Moon conjunction, only in two conjunction Moon becomes overlaps disc. I'd guess less than 10% of other planet's conjunction with Sun to be in Sun's disc (when exact data of conjunction (declination) is missing, one is more safe not believing in Cazimi).

venuschild · Sep 23, 2014

dhundhun

Due planet on different declination, a planet might be more than 17 minutes away even if they are in exact conjunction. In example below, due to declination they are 1 degree 8 minute away.

Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:20:11AM (DT -8:00 GMT)
Sun - 28Lib10 (declination -11:34')
Venus - 28Lib10 (declination -10:26')

Some experts would consider it to be Venus Cazimi (because Venus is in exact conjunction) but some experts would consider it not to be Cazimi (because even if in conjunction, it is away for Sun by one degree and 8 minutes).

What the early writers were talking about was the planet's longitude, not declination, if I understand correctly. And Less than 17 minutes is Cazimi by most early authorities.

Yet I'd love to hear the interpretations from the East, Vedic astrology's input...so please continue!

http://tradicionalnaastrologija.blogspot.com/2011/01/conjunctions-with-sun.html

astretina · Sep 24, 2014

yes, you must check real sky astronomically if the sun really consumed the planet in its "center", the planet being consumed must be on the ecliptic or very near to it 0 latitude

for me longitude not that important when it comes to cazimi

Kaiousei no Senshi · Sep 24, 2014

Planets are said to be combust, but not injured, when the Sun receives them. So if you have a Combustion in Aries or Leo it isn't detrimental to that planet.

venuschild · Sep 24, 2014

Kaiousel No Senshi

Planets are said to be combust, but not injured, when the Sun receives them. So if you have a Combustion in Aries or Leo it isn't detrimental to that planet.

I would love to hear what authors of Antiquity or current authorities have written upon this. And I know you are Well Read!

Yet Lilly says ..Combustion is about the worst thing that can happen to a planet..'

http://starlightknightastrology.com/2014/06/combustion-and-planetary-phase-chart-examples/

http://wroskopos.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/combustion/

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120229143507AAbNV5B

Is any planet conjunct Sun always Combust?

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