The Twelfth House

waybread

waybread

Well-known member
RaptInReverie said:
Waybread,

Let’s keep in mind that all of the planets rise in the twelfth house, not just the Sun. However, I will proceed with the analogy of the rising Sun to demonstrate the incongruity of such arguments concerning the nature of this house.

Firstly, if you are going to label the twelfth house obscure, then you must also label the first house and the ascendant obscure. The first house corresponds to an interval of time called twilight:

Source: US Naval Meteorology and Oceanography Command Portal

Source: timeanddate.com


According to your theory, the ascendant and the first house would then be considerably weaker and more indistinct than the twelfth because twilight occurs in the first house, sunrise around the ascendant, and daybreak in the twelfth (this is not considering the circumpolar effects at the Acttic and Antarctic circles). But ironically, things are quite the contrary; you, along with most astrologers, consider the ascendant and the first house to be the most external, visible, clear, and outward elements in a chart, and yet in the same breath you will declare that the twelfth house is hidden, concealed, and obscure!

As far as rulership is concerned, we know that Jupiter rules the twelfth house. Jupiter is the very antithesis of imprisonment and misfortune, both of which are attributed to the twelfth house. If Jupiter has no correspondence to or influence over twelfth house matters, then it has no business ruling it. This contradiction alone should be enough to provoke reassessment of the traditional house meanings. Unfortunately, all I have seen are attempts to justify such flawed logic, with a few exceptions like the work of Carl Tobey.

I do happen to be familiar with Egyptian mythology and the story of Osiris, but it would do this thread a great disservice to digress into all of the details of the story’s symbolism. The only way you could correlate Set or Typhon into this would be to further distort the already convoluted versions of the mythology. For instance, how could the twelfth house be the house of Typhon when the mythology says that Typhon was defeated by Zeus/Jupiter, the ruler of the twelfth house? Furthermore, obscuring desert storms and winds could apply just as much to the first, sixth, and seventh houses as it could the twelfth.

If you and the others here want to continue to believe that the twelfth house is some old, dark closet full of boogey monsters and night terrors, so be it. Again, I’m not attempting to get anyone to view this as I do. I am just saddened and bewildered at how credulous and eager we all have been to accept and promulgate such superstition.
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RaptInReverie, once again, either I failed to make myself clear, or perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. Or maybe I misunderstand you.

I was simply reporting on Manilius and Ptolemy, not claiming that I believe them. If we are going to explain the 12th house and its various meanings, it is useful to have some historical perspective. Otherwise we are simply left scratching our heads, wondering how the ancients could have come up with something so goofball as negative interpretations of the 12th house. Which is apparently your issue with it.

First off, some corrections. The first house does not correspond to twilight, but to the pre-dawn period. In traditional astrology with a whole-sign system, you could get a fair bit of the first house appearing above the horizon, as well. We have to keep in mind that south is at the top of the horoscope, and east on the left-hand side! This is different than conventional maps of today.

We don't have to accept the ancients' ideas, but it is good to understand them. Here is what Ptolemy said (Tetrabiblos, III:10, Loeb Classical Library translation, in relation to a point called the "lordship of prorogation.") Note that he doesn't restrict his interpretation to just the sun. The sun was, however, extremely important in Egyptian religion, just as it is in modern astrology.

"It is not fitting to consider either the sign that is disjunct from the ascendant [8th house] nor that which rose before it [12th house], called the House of the Evil Daemon [cf. Seth, Typhon], because it injures the emanation from the stars in it to the earth and is also declining [cadent] and the thick, misty exhalation from the moisture of the earth creates such a turbidity and, as it were, obscurity, that the stars do not appear in either their true colours or magnitudes."

Ptolemy lived in Alexandria Egypt, and was quite a scientist insofar as "science" can be understood in a 2nd century AD context. This passage appears to be an observation, not superstition. I also note that Ptolemy says hardly anything about houses at all-- where he uses names like "evil Daemon" he is merely reporting on conventions of his era, not adopting them himself.

Jupiter does not rule the 12th house. There were no true rulers of houses, merely of signs, prior to the 20th century. A good book on the history of astro-houses is Deborah Houlding, Houses: Temples of the Sky. Some modern astrologers conflate planets, signs, and houses, but I think this is bad practice. It apparently started with modern British astrologer C.E.O. Carter. If you say Jupiter rules the 12th house as the traditional ruler of Pisces (the 12th sign) then there is a bit of a conflict, as most modern astrologers would look only at Neptune. [William Lilly's usage appears to have been strictly for medical astrology.]

If you use Jupiter as "ruler" of the 12th house due to its association with Pisces, aren't you actually adopting some of the old traditional astrology?

But more to the point, some pages ago I gave a bunch of 12th house meanings that I have gleaned during my readings into modern astrology. In some of them, Jupiter would not function as strongly and positively as it would in another house; say, the 5th or the 9th. But I also pointed out where Jupiter in the 12th would be a constructive placement for a spiritual person.

Calling the ancients superstitious is really unhelpful. Whatever their shortcomings were, they laid the foundations for the brands of astrology you or I practice today.

I am possibly as well-versed in the Isis-Osiris mythology as you are. One of the best ancient sources on it from the Hellenistic period when astrology got its start is, Plutarch's Isis and Osiris, of ca. 100 AD. Highly recommended. No doubt you are aware of the role of Seth in this mythology, together with the characters' environmental meanings. Probably, too, you are aware of Plutarch's introduction of Pythagorean number symbolism into the Isis-Osiris narrative, and have though about how this plays out into house meanings. Probably you have also read multiple books on Egyptian lore on the passage of the soul through the after-life, with its different temples or chambers; and spent some time trying to decipher tomb and temple paintings of the soul's journey (notably through the Hall of Osiris) in terms of constellations and astrological houses.

Well, I have.
 
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RaptInReverie

RaptInReverie

Well-known member
Waybread,

Have you really been studying astrology for 22 years? Because it is so simple to document that planets move clockwise through the houses: they rise at the ascendant, zenith at the midheaven, and culminate at the descendent. Download any astrological software that has an animation feature if you don’t believe me.

Secondly, if you don’t believe me about twilight occurring in the first house, look up the local sunrise time for your area, then cast a chart for that time and observe the position of the Sun. Between 12 and18 degrees BELOW the Ascendant is where astronomical twilight occurs! I have done this myself and attached the chart below.

Third, I never proclaimed to be a modern or traditional astrologer. I am, however, a modern astrologer who observes the traditional house rulerships OVER the modern rulers. In the oldest house system (Whole Signs) the word “house” and “sign” were interchangeable, so Jupiter DOES rule the twelfth house.

Fourth, I didn’t call the ancient astrologers superstitious. I said SOME astrologers, throughout time, have been and are superstitious. There’s a difference.

Lastly, I would prefer to leave the Osiris myth out of this debate. Trust me, it will go nowhere!
 

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RaptInReverie

RaptInReverie

Well-known member
waybread said:
RaptInReverie, once again, either I failed to make myself clear, or perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. Or maybe I misunderstand you.

I was simply reporting on Manilius and Ptolemy, not claiming that I believe them.
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waybread said:
If I make a metaphor out of Egyptian mythology and ecology, I think that 12th house terrain is that realm of obscurity. As I posted above, oftentimes our 12th house matters are hidden from us, even though others may see these traits in us pretty clearly. This is one reason why 12th housers are best being very altruistic and "self-sacrificing": because the "self" in this placement is always an obscure target.
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Doesn't sound like "simply reporting" to me. :whistling:
 
Athene

Athene

Well-known member
Oh man, i'm so fed up with all this (here and beyond here obv) 12th h bickering .. :sleeping:

When engaging in discussions, it's only natural they'll heat up at one point or other, that's a proof there is some real energy infused in them and we're really working thoward an answer here :sideways: It's the cardinal angular factor in the spread of any issue, pinning down both earth and heavens where is due, and we're ALL working thoward this goal here, never forget to bear that in mind. Disrespecting and hindering eachother in the process is the same as disrecspecting and hindering the quest itself and our genuine interest in the truth that lays behind it. If we could get at the bottom of the matter singularly, we wouldnt need eachother and we wouldnt be here - in the first place.

Now,

personally,

i think this very fact (and the lack of our common sense we display wit it) is what encomphases the issue of the 12th and the usual circumstances of why it's so, ahem, f*** up basically.


So please, let's not bark at eachother and somehow keep in mind what's our goal here and HOW in fact PRECIOUS we are to eachother - not only for the informations we provide mutually - but oppinions too - because especially that part IS what keeps the dices rolling for the collective brainstorm .... while 'dead baked' 'knowledge' doesnt.



Thank you for listening to my rant :joyful: *bows*


I'll toss in my two coins in soon .. ~
 
S

sandstone

Banned
i want to return to a chart waybread pointed out - thomas mertons chart earlier in the thread..i thought it was a good example of a 12th house focus, while also offering the challenge for an astrologer to try to untangle the differences between the 9th and 12th houses. i think jupiter generally and in mertons chart has a lot to do with this topic.. in mertons chart jupiter is located in the 12th house while ruling his ascendant, midheaven and 9th house if you work with placidus houses.. that he wrote over 70 books on spirituality seems to be backed up by jupiter conjunction to mercury/north node in the 12th house/sign to the ascendant as well here. that he worked towards greater understanding between many different religions reminds me of the sign aquarius here where an important chunk of his chart is focused in as well..

venus-saturn/pluto opposition straddling the midheaven axis certainly fits with the description and relationship to both his parents at an early age as well. the idea of a father figure missing or largely absent, can be seen a few different ways astrologically i suppose..i wonder if this is a cultural phenomeum to some extent too.. according to merton, he felt his dad was largely absent on some level. his mom died when he was 6. saturn is the trad ruler of the 12th and is on the cusp of the 4th in opposition to venus in the signs gemini/sag.. if you incorporate the 135 aspect - sun 135 saturn is very close here which might give further insight into his relationship with his dad.

reading up on people when you have an accurate birth chart is educational. you can take the astrology and see if and how it connects to important events in the persons life.. a critical turning point in mertons life is in the 1938-1941 area.. during the time he graduates from university, explores the idea of becoming a monk, is given a teaching job while also having to wait until dec 13 1941 before finally being accepted as a postulant to the monastery.. all this time one imagines he continued to write, as he is known for being a prolific writer(mercury/jupiter). during much of this time neptune transits the descendant.. during 38 -39 saturn transits his ascendant/1st house, while jupiter goes thru aquarius and into pisces -12/1 house area.

one senses a push pull type of dynamic running thru mertons life which i am partly getting from what i read and what i believe is a see-saw pattern to his chart - saturn to moon on the one side with venus to jupiter on the other.. merton seems most comfortable in himself as a writer more then a religious type of man, although he would have been both. whether one express themselves thru there writing in a particular way as being very passionate about spirituality, or religion i come away with the impression his writing was his spiritual practice as much as his praying and devotion to the vows he accepted over the course of his life... interesting example and one that i enjoyed contemplating astrologically.. thanks waybread..
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
RaptInReverie said:
Waybread,

Have you really been studying astrology for 22 years? Because it is so simple to document that planets move clockwise through the houses: they rise at the ascendant, zenith at the midheaven, and culminate at the descendent. Download any astrological software that has an animation feature if you don’t believe me.

Secondly, if you don’t believe me about twilight occurring in the first house, look up the local sunrise time for your area, then cast a chart for that time and observe the position of the Sun. Between 12 and18 degrees BELOW the Ascendant is where astronomical twilight occurs! I have done this myself and attached the chart below.

Third, I never proclaimed to be a modern or traditional astrologer. I am, however, a modern astrologer who observes the traditional house rulerships OVER the modern rulers. In the oldest house system (Whole Signs) the word “house” and “sign” were interchangeable, so Jupiter DOES rule the twelfth house.

Fourth, I didn’t call the ancient astrologers superstitious. I said SOME astrologers, throughout time, have been and are superstitious. There’s a difference.

Lastly, I would prefer to leave the Osiris myth out of this debate. Trust me, it will go nowhere!

EDIT: I've attached an additional chart. The first illustrates the approximate position of the Sun at sunrise, and the second illustrates the approximate position of the Sun during the period known as twilight. I used Whole Signs instead of Placidus to demonstrate that the results are similar. This time period occurs primarily in the first house.
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Yes, I have been studying astrology for 22 years. How about yourself? What have you been reading? Are you saying that you don't think I know very much?

Why should you doubt that I understand that the sun rises in the east, reaches its MC and sets in the west???? Jeez Louise, RaptnInReverie, give me a little credit.:annoyed: I have observed far more sunrises and sunsets in relation to the horizons than you have.

Planets in astrology have two motions, diurnal and seasonal. If you want to call the pre-dawn period "twilight" that's fine with me. However, "twilight" more commonly refers to the time after sunset than the predawn period. From the Free Online Dictionary:

"1. a. The diffused light from the sky during the early evening or early morning when the sun is below the horizon and its light is refracted by the earth's atmosphere.
b. The time of the day when the sun is just below the horizon, especially the period between sunset and dark."

This is 6th house territory in a quadrant house system. In a whole sign system, it could very well include some of the 7th house.

I understand house systems perfectly well. In traditional astrology (which I am merely reporting, so don't jump down my throat) the pre-dawn period was seen as auspicious: the first house was arguably the best one in the entire chart. Perhaps this was because, although the sun's light might be dim, it was increasing. The Hellenistic astrologers attached a lot of importance to angular houses, as well.

The 11th house was also seen as fortunate, perhaps because the sun shined more brightly after it emerged from those miasmas and mists that Ptolemy mentioned. Also, it had a sextile relationship to the ASC.

I must correct what you say about traditional astrology. The ancient astrologers did not conflate signs and houses. In the whole sign system each sign and house had contiguous cusps of 30 degrees each, but the meanings of signs and houses were quite different. Jupiter was the traditional ruler of Pisces but they didn't associate the 12th house with Pisces. Not unless somebody actually happened to have Aries rising.

You can especially see this where they had negative things to say about the 12th house, but these did not apply to the sign of Pisces. In fact, the misfortunate signs were more likely to be Aquarius or Capricorn as these were ruled by Saturn. Yet they called the 11th house the House of the Good Daemon, and the 10th house of honours and public image, was extremely fortunate.

I tried to explain a bit of the modern history of the conflation of signs and houses, which is a modern invention. Which would be OK, except that most of them don't match up well-- for a couple of reasons.

1. A sign indicates "how" or "in what manner" a planet operates, much like an adverb or adjective in a sentence.

2. A planet indicates "where" or "in what domain of life" a planet operates, much like a prepositional phrase in a sentence.

So they really are like apples and oranges.

I am happy to discuss Isis, Osiris, Re, Hathor, Set,and the rest of the Egyptian pantheon if anyone else thinks, as I do, that their myths have some bearing on the emergence of astrological houses in antiquity.
 
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Carris

Carris

Well-known member
Waybread

Most of these ancient cultures were in the middle east and africa (and perhaps the meditteranean) where the sun is very hot, dessicating and the atmosphere is dusty. The sun can be very hot, uncomfortable, dehydrating, troublesome and is therefore probably not beloved - whereas the nights are cool and comfortable - maybe that is why the moon is seen as the mother and sun as the father (i.e. as someone unpleasant - "just wait till your father gets home").

In the rest of the world however, the rising sun is a beautiful spectacle to behold and much looked forward to. Also sunset. People actually look forward to sunrise to dispel the darkness and coldness of the night. And summer - in the northern hemisphere. If astrological observations had started in australia instead of the middle east - the view of astrology would probably have been different.

A child born just as the sun was visible over the eastern horizon would also be considered "the dispeller of darkness" - the one who has come to show us the light. The beautiful, radiant one - born to bring warmth, love, selflessness and compassion into our lives (because the sun gives its light selflessly and impartially to everone without asking for anything in return). Perhaps only the child's mother and midwife would be feeling peevish at losing their night's sleep because of the labor - I don't see why anyone else would see it in a negative way.
 
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Carris

Carris

Well-known member
Athene said:
Oh man, i'm so fed up with all this (here and beyond here obv) 12th h bickering .. :sleeping:

When engaging in discussions, it's only natural they'll heat up at one point or other, that's a proof there is some real energy infused in them and we're really working thoward an answer here :sideways: It's the cardinal angular factor in the spread of any issue, pinning down both earth and heavens where is due, and we're ALL working thoward this goal here, never forget to bear that in mind. Disrespecting and hindering eachother in the process is the same as disrecspecting and hindering the quest itself and our genuine interest in the truth that lays behind it. If we could get at the bottom of the matter singularly, we wouldnt need eachother and we wouldnt be here - in the first place.

Now,

personally,

i think this very fact (and the lack of our common sense we display wit it) is what encomphases the issue of the 12th and the usual circumstances of why it's so, ahem, f*** up basically.


So please, let's not bark at eachother and somehow keep in mind what's our goal here and HOW in fact PRECIOUS we are to eachother - not only for the informations we provide mutually - but oppinions too - because especially that part IS what keeps the dices rolling for the collective brainstorm .... while 'dead baked' 'knowledge' doesnt.



Thank you for listening to my rant :joyful: *bows*


I'll toss in my two coins in soon .. ~
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Athene

This bickering has nothing to do with the 12th house. It is because of the respective individuals' mars and mercury. This discussion or good-natured bickering (an excellent thing btw) happens on any topic.

Remainder of posting deleted by moderator ~ members, even OP can not control how others respond.
 
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waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Carris, I have no problem with your view of the sun in its passage. I understand that in Vedic/Hindu astrology, the sun is actually seen as a malefic. I am trying to explain how I think we got to the 12th house meanings that we have today, not to promote a Hellenistic-Egyptian brand of astrology.
 
RaptInReverie

RaptInReverie

Well-known member
Waybread,

No, I am not saying that you don’t know very much. Clearly you do, and for that reason it should be evident that twilight occurs in the first house. It appears that this misunderstanding between us is predominately semantical, so I will clear up some of it now:

Twilight refers equally to both the interval between dawn and sunrise and the interval between sunset and dusk. The online dictionary definition you posted is insufficient and makes no mention of the three subcategories of twilight. I mentioned one (astronomical twilight, which is the darkest), but I realize now that I should have defined all three. I’m paraphrasing so I don’t have to concern myself with a quoting limit:

Astronomical Twilight: (the darkest) occurs in the morning and in the evening when the center of the Sun in between 12 and 18 degrees below the horizon. This phase is actually so dark that it is virtually indistinguishable from the night sky, thus I probably shouldn’t have used this subcategory definition in my previous examples.

Nautical Twilight: (intermediary) occurs in the morning and in the evening when the center of the Sun is between 6 and 12 degrees below the horizon. Faint traces of light are distinguishable at this time.

Civil Twilight: (the brightest) occurs in the morning and in the evening when the center of the Sun is 6 degrees below the horizon. At this time there is sufficient light to distinguish terrestrial objects as well as the horizon.

The important thing to note is that all of this occurs before actual sunrise and after sunset, so in many of the house systems it would correspond to the first and sixth houses. In whole signs, however, it could correspond to the first, second, sixth or seventh houses, depending on which subcategory of twilight you were observing. This is not pre-dawn or post-dusk; the onset of these intervals mark dawn and dusk. The Sun is risen in the twelfth.

Now, before I continue I want to make it clear that I’m not attacking you personally; I’m simply analyzing the logic behind the ideas that you are reporting about the twelfth house--even though I never inquired why the ancients believed this. I was only interested in hearing why people today believe it:

The obscurity and turbidity that is associated with the twelfth can just as easily be associated with the first, second, sixth, and seventh houses. If anything, it makes the least sense to label an oriental house in the diurnal hemisphere as such. As far as mythology is concerned, I can’t think of too many ancient cultures that viewed the rising Sun as something evil. But as I’ve said, I’d rather not divagate into mythology on this thread; the topic is already dense enough as it is.

As far as I’m concerned, the earliest astrologers didn’t have separate house meanings. When you say ancient astrologers, I take it to mean the first, as in the ones who didn’t use such divisions. I can totally understand how the signs and houses became conflated later on, and I don’t consider this negative. In my opinion, its beneficial to have at least some basic level of correspondence between the houses, signs, and planets. When I say correspondence, I don’t mean equivalence, and I don‘t mean that they operate in the same manner. Since you regard this as a bad practice, I won’t keep pressing the issue. Neither of us is going to budge.
 
IleneK

IleneK

Premium Member
Sandstone,

Thank you for citing Deb Houldings' work here. Her thoughtful and reasoned work is an excellent source on the the houses.
 
M

Munch

Well-known member
sandstone said:
waybread has mentioned deb houldings book on houses called ' the houses - temples of the sky'.. i am going to quote from this book some of what she says on the 12th house with the thought that some here might be interested enough to see about getting a copy of her book.. it's a very good book as waybread points out and to which i agree..

i am jumping around here and not giving you the full context which you will need to get directly from the book..

"in ancient astrology the 12th and 6th houses had similar meanings, both connected with weakness, infirmity and toil.." much of the " 'basis of their weakness is their cadency- each alike moves dejected from a cardinal point with the spectacle of ruin before its eyes. the word 'cardinal' comes from the latin cardo meaning 'highe','axis' , or 'pivot' and is used in a general sense to indicate something of primary importance. "

"although we continue to refer to the 9th house as 'the house of the church' we have generally slipped from recognizing it as a house that is reflective..."
[edited quote from one source over 100 words against forum rules - Moderator]

you will need to get the book to appreciate the full extent of it, but this will give some folks something to consider..
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An extremely insightful post. Thank you!
 
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JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
RaptInReverie said:
Waybread,

No, I am not saying that you don’t know very much. Clearly you do, and for that reason it should be evident that twilight occurs in the first house. It appears that this misunderstanding between us is predominately semantical, so I will clear up some of it now:

Twilight refers equally to both the interval between dawn and sunrise and the interval between sunset and dusk. The online dictionary definition you posted is insufficient and makes no mention of the three subcategories of twilight. I mentioned one (astronomical twilight, which is the darkest), but I realize now that I should have defined all three. I’m paraphrasing so I don’t have to concern myself with a quoting limit:

Astronomical Twilight: (the darkest) occurs in the morning and in the evening when the center of the Sun in between 12 and 18 degrees below the horizon. This phase is actually so dark that it is virtually indistinguishable from the night sky, thus I probably shouldn’t have used this subcategory definition in my previous examples.

Nautical Twilight: (intermediary) occurs in the morning and in the evening when the center of the Sun is between 6 and 12 degrees below the horizon. Faint traces of light are distinguishable at this time.

Civil Twilight: (the brightest) occurs in the morning and in the evening when the center of the Sun is 6 degrees below the horizon. At this time there is sufficient light to distinguish terrestrial objects as well as the horizon.

The important thing to note is that all of this occurs before actual sunrise and after sunset, so in many of the house systems it would correspond to the first and sixth houses. In whole signs, however, it could correspond to the first, second, sixth or seventh houses, depending on which subcategory of twilight you were observing. This is not pre-dawn or post-dusk; the onset of these intervals mark dawn and dusk. The Sun is risen in the twelfth.

Now, before I continue I want to make it clear that I’m not attacking you personally; I’m simply analyzing the logic behind the ideas that you are reporting about the twelfth house--even though I never inquired why the ancients believed this. I was only interested in hearing why people today believe it:

The obscurity and turbidity that is associated with the twelfth can just as easily be associated with the first, second, sixth, and seventh houses. If anything, it makes the least sense to label an oriental house in the diurnal hemisphere as such. As far as mythology is concerned, I can’t think of too many ancient cultures that viewed the rising Sun as something evil. But as I’ve said, I’d rather not divagate into mythology on this thread; the topic is already dense enough as it is.

As far as I’m concerned, the earliest astrologers didn’t have separate house meanings. When you say ancient astrologers, I take it to mean the first, as in the ones who didn’t use such divisions. I can totally understand how the signs and houses became conflated later on, and I don’t consider this negative. In my opinion, its beneficial to have at least some basic level of correspondence between the houses, signs, and planets. When I say correspondence, I don’t mean equivalence, and I don‘t mean that they operate in the same manner. Since you regard this as a bad practice, I won’t keep pressing the issue. Neither of us is going to budge.
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RaptInReverie - Thank you for posting these refreshing ideas :smile:
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
RaptInReverie said:
Waybread,

No, I am not saying that you don’t know very much. Clearly you do, and for that reason it should be evident that twilight occurs in the first house. It appears that this misunderstanding between us is predominately semantical, so I will clear up some of it now:

Twilight refers equally to both the interval between dawn and sunrise and the interval between sunset and dusk. The online dictionary definition you posted is insufficient and makes no mention of the three subcategories of twilight. I mentioned one (astronomical twilight, which is the darkest), but I realize now that I should have defined all three. I’m paraphrasing so I don’t have to concern myself with a quoting limit:

Astronomical Twilight: (the darkest) occurs in the morning and in the evening when the center of the Sun in between 12 and 18 degrees below the horizon. This phase is actually so dark that it is virtually indistinguishable from the night sky, thus I probably shouldn’t have used this subcategory definition in my previous examples.

Nautical Twilight: (intermediary) occurs in the morning and in the evening when the center of the Sun is between 6 and 12 degrees below the horizon. Faint traces of light are distinguishable at this time.

Civil Twilight: (the brightest) occurs in the morning and in the evening when the center of the Sun is 6 degrees below the horizon. At this time there is sufficient light to distinguish terrestrial objects as well as the horizon.

The important thing to note is that all of this occurs before actual sunrise and after sunset, so in many of the house systems it would correspond to the first and sixth houses. In whole signs, however, it could correspond to the first, second, sixth or seventh houses, depending on which subcategory of twilight you were observing. This is not pre-dawn or post-dusk; the onset of these intervals mark dawn and dusk. The Sun is risen in the twelfth.

Now, before I continue I want to make it clear that I’m not attacking you personally; I’m simply analyzing the logic behind the ideas that you are reporting about the twelfth house--even though I never inquired why the ancients believed this. I was only interested in hearing why people today believe it:

The obscurity and turbidity that is associated with the twelfth can just as easily be associated with the first, second, sixth, and seventh houses. If anything, it makes the least sense to label an oriental house in the diurnal hemisphere as such. As far as mythology is concerned, I can’t think of too many ancient cultures that viewed the rising Sun as something evil. But as I’ve said, I’d rather not divagate into mythology on this thread; the topic is already dense enough as it is.

As far as I’m concerned, the earliest astrologers didn’t have separate house meanings. When you say ancient astrologers, I take it to mean the first, as in the ones who didn’t use such divisions. I can totally understand how the signs and houses became conflated later on, and I don’t consider this negative. In my opinion, its beneficial to have at least some basic level of correspondence between the houses, signs, and planets. When I say correspondence, I don’t mean equivalence, and I don‘t mean that they operate in the same manner. Since you regard this as a bad practice, I won’t keep pressing the issue. Neither of us is going to budge.
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Sorry, RaptInReverie-- which part of "twilight" or the sun's diurnal motion through the houses do you think I didn't understand, based on my previous posts? "Twilight" is more commonly understood as the period after sunset in any dictionary I've consulted, but pre-dawn works, too. [And your point is....?]

If you want to argue that other twilight houses are equally obscure so why pick on the 12th, "read on, McDuff!"

I've tried to explain how I think the ancients saw things. Please take it or leave it as such. Do not "shoot the messenger." If you wish to debate ancient astrology, I am happy to do so.

In terms of the history of the houses, the Babylonians didn't use them. (Francesca Rochberg is an expert on it: you might enjoy her book, The Heavenly Writing. Then the Egyptians had a rich cultural astronomy but no horoscopic astrology prior to the Hellenistic period.

1. Deborah Houlding in her book Houses: Temples of the Sky, argues that houses probably were based upon Egyptian lore about the sun god Re. While little is known about them extant works of Hellenistic astrologers (minus Ptolemy) tended to attribute their craft to an Egyptian pharoah Nechepso (Neko) and a scribe or priest Petosiris. While works attributed to them were probably written more recently, it does suggest that early astrologers thought that a lot of their traditions came from Egypt.

2. Houlding (and Hellenistic astrologer Robert Schmidt) also note that Hellenistic astrologers paid great attention to angularity: proximity to an angle was extremely important. Consequently angular houses were good but cadent houses were judged to be weak, with the exception of the 9th. In reading the Hellenistic authors, my impression is that they didn't use houses as much as we do. They had all kinds of methods for calculating things that today we ascribe to houses. They used "lots" (Arabic parts) and other calculations oftentimes. Ptolemy scarcely uses houses at all.

3. A third influence on ancient house understandings is whether they formed a classical aspect to the ascendant. The 12th, 8th, and 6th houses were considered weak because the formed a semi-sextile or quincunx to the first house. The 2nd house is sort of interesting: it also has a semi-sextile relationship to the first and initially was viewed as unfavourable (and termed "the gates of Hell") but later it became associated with wealth.

So what you get is a kind of grafting or hybridizing of several different takes on the division of the horoscope.

If we combine the ancients' different ideas, of course they conflict!!!! But to us, not necessarily to the ancient mind. Ptolemy was the one ancient astrologer who tried to systematize astrology in a serious way, as I noted previously. There is a good explanation of Hellenistic Egyptian thinking in Plutarch, Isis and Osiris. He draws attention to the problem of seemingly conflicting lore. He notes that the Egyptians saw all of the different deities and manifestations and competing narratives merely as different manifestations of underlying truths.

Sometimes we have to let it go at that.
 
RealityStarfish

RealityStarfish

Active member
Okay, first of all, it have been a really long while since I dropped by here (in fact, the first time I signed up an account I just logged in & posted the wrong birth chart for a couple of days and went ghost)....btw, this thread is a bit long for me to read through at the moment, so I'll just comment now, particularly regarding Carrie's post.

Carrie, I just want to say that I agree with much of what you said. I personally have a jupiter in the twelfth house and I really come to value spirituality. In fact, I feel very grateful that spirituality seem to come easily to me, especially when life seem to hit rock bottom at times. Though, I admit that I did somewhat struggle with coming to terms with this understanding of spirituality early on in my childhood. However, once I dropped the fear, everything just clicked right in.


Btw, did you read Dr. Brian Weiss's books before? Some of the spiritual concepts you have talked about sounded awfully familiar to me. =]


Carris said:
Greybeard

Both my parents were and are very much present in my life both physically and emotionally. I do need my solitude - but mainly because I feel tired when I engage too much with the world - and now I also feel bored with the superficiality of social contacts and other wordly entertainments.

No matter how much I try, I can't see the 12th and spirituality as a negative thing. Why is prison a negative thing if it corrects your path, disciplines you and causes you to grow spiritually?

I have felt the sadness and frustration you talk of - but that only happens when the 12th is trying to detach you from material pursuits and getting you to focus your attention on spirituality. You certainly feel sad and frustrated that you messed up (self destruction?) your materialistic pursuit such as a high flying job, career, etc. But once I realized that kind of life would have led me nowhere - I stopped feeling sad.

Solitude is a type of meditation or communion with oneself. If solitude is spent in introspection, study, research, meditation, growth, relaxation, hobbies, etc - it is a very positive thing - I can't understand why people feel solitude or isolation is bad or negative or whatever.

I think that the only reason the 12th causes problems is because real true spiritual knowledge (i.e. the truth about our soul, karma and rebirth) is not available easily on earth - except in Buddhism. People confuse spirituality with religion - and most of the religions are untrue, harsh and dogmatic. How are people supposed to know why they are here on earth in the first place? How are we supposed to know that we are here only for spiritual growth and NOTHING else - not for money, career, cars, houses, etc. We just automatically, mindlessly try follow society's standards of what success is - lots of money, a fancy job, the "perfect" marriage and children, lots of social influence, etc - even though our ultimate happiness does not lie in it.

There is not a single person dead or alive who does not have "repressed psychological content". We souls are here to learn - Earth is a very tough school both physically and emotionally. There will definitely be hurt, pain, fear, anger, bitterness, resentment, etc. This is how we learn what forgiveness means, what compassion means and how important it is.

Just forgive youself and move on. Why blame the 12th house?
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Carris

Carris

Well-known member
RealityStarfish said:
Okay, first of all, it have been a really long while since I dropped by here (in fact, the first time I signed up an account I just logged in & posted the wrong birth chart for a couple of days and went ghost)....btw, this thread is a bit long for me to read through at the moment, so I'll just comment now, particularly regarding Carrie's post.

Carrie, I just want to say that I agree with much of what you said. I personally have a jupiter in the twelfth house and I really come to value spirituality. In fact, I feel very grateful that spirituality seem to come easily to me, especially when life seem to hit rock bottom at times. Though, I admit that I did somewhat struggle with coming to terms with this understanding of spirituality early on in my childhood. However, once I dropped the fear, everything just clicked right in.


Btw, did you read Dr. Brian Weiss's books before? Some of the spiritual concepts you have talked about sounded awfully familiar to me. =]
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Thank you!

Yes! "Many lives many masters - Dr Brian Weiss" is my "bible". I often turn to it for comfort whenever I feel very troubled by life. I really believe that god has spoken to us through that book. My other favorite books are by Dr Michael Newton and by Dolores Cannon (books that really blow your mind).

Btw I love your signature quote: Stand up for what you believe in, even if it means standing alone.

Your jupiter in 12th must have ofcourse bought this spiritual outlook much earlier and more easily into your life. My saturn in 12th was a bit more harsh - but thats okay, I have begun to value saturn.

In "astrology and your past lives - jeanne avery" the author talks of how saturn in 12th indicates karma from past life regarding a large group or community.

She regressed one of her 12th saturn clients, a doctor, and "he saw himself as a ruler of a sector in germany. He had been betrayed and drowned. He felt that it was his own fault for being naive and trusting. He also knew that he also betrayed the very people who depended on him for wise leadership. His frustration came from not being able to let anyone know that he had been murdered....He had tried to balance the scales by healing people in this lifetime, but he felt so tired and overburdened that his work was becoming detrimental to his own health." He had to examine his subconscious and forgive himself and others for past mistakes before he could move on.

"It appears that a grave sense of responsibility that was not honored makes for intense self punishment on a deep subconscious level in the present life." Maybe I was one of those horrible ancient astrologers in my past life and irresponsibly cast all those dark aspersions on the character of the 12th - so now I am trying to balance it in this life.

After reading all these books, I am at peace with following the path of spiritual growth as directed by my 12th house, through spirituality, selfless service and whatever my higher-self wants for me.
 
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RealityStarfish

RealityStarfish

Active member
Carris said:
Thank you!

Yes! "Many lives many masters - Dr Brian Weiss" is my "bible". I often turn to it for comfort whenever I feel very troubled by life. I really believe that god has spoken to us through that book. My other favorite books are by Dr Michael Newton and by Dolores Cannon (books that really blow your mind).

Btw I love your signature quote: Stand up for what you believe in, even if it means standing alone.
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Oops, sorry Carris, just realized that I misspelled your name. Anyways, yea, Dr. Brain Weiss is my personal "bible" too =D

Thanks, I actually wrote that quote probably more than 5 years ago, but looking at it now, I still it applies to my life.
 
IleneK

IleneK

Premium Member
Carris said:
Thank you!

<...>

Your jupiter in 12th must have ofcourse bought this spiritual outlook much earlier and more easily into your life. My saturn in 12th was a bit more harsh - but thats okay, I have begun to value saturn.

In "astrology and your past lives - jeanne avery" the author talks of how saturn in 12th indicates karma from past life regarding a large group or community.

She regressed one of her 12th saturn clients, a doctor, and "he saw himself as a ruler of a sector in germany. He had been betrayed and drowned. He felt that it was his own fault for being naive and trusting. He also knew that he also betrayed the very people who depended on him for wise leadership. His frustration came from not being able to let anyone know that he had been murdered....He had tried to balance the scales by healing people in this lifetime, but he felt so tired and overburdened that his work was becoming detrimental to his own health." He had to examine his subconscious and forgive himself and others for past mistakes before he could move on.

"It appears that a grave sense of responsibility that was not honored makes for intense self punishment on a deep subconscious level in the present life." Maybe I was one of those horrible ancient astrologers in my past life and irresponsibly cast all those dark aspersions on the character of the 12th - so now I am trying to balance it in this life.

After reading all these books, I am at peace with following the path of spiritual growth as directed by my 12th house, through spirituality, selfless service and whatever my higher-self wants for me.
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Carris,

I very much appreciate your themes and sources in this ongoing conversation. With Moon-Mars-Saturn-Pluto in Leo in the 12th squared by Sun in the 9th, one of the most important life matters I had resolve was proper use of power. And as you note, selflessness and service is certainly the 12th house requirement and also joy.
 
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