Will we win our lawsuit?

tsmall · Jun 14, 2013

The short story. In early April the new president of the board of the non profit my husband founded (and with whom there was already no love lost) went out of her mind and in collusion with an employee who was about to be fired did a lot of very nasty and not necessarily legal things in order to wrest control of the non profit away from my husband. Part of what she did in addition to firing him with no warning what so ever was file a complaint in court (something btw corporations are not supposed to do on their own behalf--they are supposed to have an attorney do it) alleging some pretty horrific and completely untrue fears about animal abuse.

No complaint of abuse had ever or to date has been filed with any regulatory agency (and we report to several), just these out of left field and unsubstantiated allegations, which were created out of whole cloth solely for the purpose of the second part of her actions, which were to force the court to "grant custody" for lack of a better term to the non profit of all the animals which at the time were housed in the facility, owned by us and leased to the non profit. It was an effort to skate around the significant fact that more than half of the animals here, as well as most of the equipment, the trademark, and the customer data base belong personally to us and had not yet been transferred in any way to the non profit.

In an effort to keep this brief (though I am more than willing to answer questions)...we have filed a counter suit for the return of our property (which we can prove beyond any doubt belongs to us since we have all the documentation, including many written instances of acknowledgement on the part of the board of our continued ownership of these assets. In addition, we have filed for damages for defamation of character, abuse of process, trespass, wrongful termination...yadda yadda.

Lilly said that the the strongest of the significators ought to have the victory.

In this case Venus (us) is essentially dignified for being in her own term (not much, but better than nothing, and she gets a big assist from the conjunction with Mercury in Gemini. She's in the 9th for being 5* or less from the cusp of the 9th, in bright degree, free from the beams, swift...

Mars is not so great. In detriment, combust, in the 8th and in welled degree. There is no aspect between Venus and Mars, though Venus receives Mars by domicile and triplicity (note that since I'm following Lilly in CA I have used his dignities.) Mars does not receive Venus. Lilly suggests that if there is one way reception then there is likelyhood of a settlement (which in this case is definitely one potential outcome) and that we should look to the planet that receives them both to see who would bring about the settlement. In this case it's Saturn.

Saturn is also significant because he is the ruler of the 4th, which is the end of all matters, and in this case present in the 1st, retrograde. He is also the exaltation ruler of the ASC. Does this give indication that the assets we own will be returned to us?

I am unclear as to how to determine whether damages will be awarded. Also, I would love for any one to offer an interpretation of the Moon's next aspect, which is to oppose Mars. Moon is in at least as poor condition as Mars and there is some interesting reception there. It looks like something is going to get ugly (which the situation already is, as indicated by the Moon's corruption.) The question is will it be even more ugliness for us? Mars is combust, so what ever Moon is pushing to him (disposition or management, since she has no power where she is) is going to be returned.

The chart seems to say that yes, we will win. But in the meantime it would help to know how.

tsmall · Jun 16, 2013

Well, perhaps if I talk to myself here I can figure it out.

Next up I believe would be to check the fixed stars for the players/planets in the chart to get more insight into what is happening. I did this on the advice of a friend who has way more experience than I (well, just about everyone has way more experience than I do :pinched:

) I have to say it was...pretty spot on in most respects.

Starting with Saturn, retrograde in the 1st house (good? bad? I mean it's Saturn in the 1st which isn't so great, yet Saturn is L4, or the end of the matter, retro in the 1st could indicate that which we own coming back to us?)

To investigate the fixed stars I used two sources, and anyone reading along can find all the references here

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/stars.html

or here

http://www.constellationsofwords.com

Saturn at 6* Scorpio gets Gacrux, the head of the Southern Cross. There isn't much about this star because the Southern Cross wasn't listed as a separate constellation until the 1600's, but it is given qualities similar to Bungula.

Relationships to female persons often seem spoiled, or an existing relationship is stricken by exceptional circumstances.

You mean, like the female president of your board of directors deciding that she believes the histrionic machinations of a disgruntled employee (also female) who was staving off being fired for neglect and who wanted to be in charge? And the same female president wanting to prove her own power (while neglecting to investigate the allegations) by attempting to steal assets that do not belong to her organization and doing all in her power to defame the character of the organization's founder, just because she wants to show that she is more important and influential by conspiring in secret and browbeating other board members to go along with her? Hmmm.

So this potentially describes what has happened, but is it relevant to the question?

The Moon is at 14* Scorpio, and so gets Zuben Elgenubi, or the Southern Scale of Libra. Ouch. It is described as being like Saturn and Mars and it's influence is damaging (more corruption for the Moon.) It causes malevolence, obstruction, and unforgiving character (that sort of describes how I feel right now) violence, disease, lying, crime and disgrace. It is said that of the two scales (the Northern being justice) it is the "price to be paid."

Moon is the current situation and also the secondary significator of the querent. Well, I know (though I don't expect anyone else to take my word for it) that the querent isn't lying, hasn't been involved in a crime, and yet is suffering from disgrace of sorts due to the nature of the situation. Moon applies to an opposition with Mars as her next aspect and is pushing nature and management--she has no power in her position to push to him unless we could consider accidental dignity for being in the 1st. Somehow I don't think so, but maybe...Mars is combust though as well as being in welled degree, so whatever Moon is pushing to him will be returned. It's a bit of interesting reception, since Moon is in Mars' domicile and he is in her exaltation. Mutual reception by detriment/fall, which is never great to start with. The question is...Moon normally can't harm Mars from Scorpio. Can Mars harm Moon from Taurus??

Speaking of Mars, at 24* Taurus he gets quite a few fixed stars. Capalus, or the hilt of Perseus' sword. Possibility of willful blindness? Associated with blindness of some sort. As well as leaping to action without being able to look directly at the face of his opponent. (If that isn't an apt metaphor for this situation I don't know what would be.) There is also the possibility of a passionate energy "that can dissipate or turn inward due to a lack of focus."

Well, since their initial complaint was filed and they stole our property (did I mention that they also trespassed in our private residence as well as removing our animals from our facility prior to obtaining a court order?) they have lost 5 board members, the disgruntled employee who started this all was promoted to executive director and then demoted to co-director, and one employee was forced to quit. Lack of focus? Maybe.

Mars also gets Segin, which represents "beauty spoiled by vanity and greed, and a mother's pride falling into humility." Interesting bit, that, in light of what I said about Saturn's stars.

Most noticeably, Mars gets Algol. :surprised:

Lilly gave a whopping 5* and -4 detriment points for planets conjunct Algol, it's that malefic. "...indication of decapitation, hanging, or danger to the head." Ok, I'll admit that I've been a little vengeful, but I seriously don't want anyone to die. I'm wondering if this might also be more metaphoric, as in could this indicate the board president (the "head") being severed from the rest of the organization? In our counter suit we have filed against each party individually due to the egregious nature of what they did. Could the "head" be severed and left on the hook for all of it? Or, could it be an indication of them tying their own noose and then hanging from it??

The Sun, who as the ruler of the 10th cusp should be the judge, gets Mirfak, and all I can find of this star is "intelligent, bold and adventurous but a tendency to lie." Um, ouch?

Then comes the lovely trio, Mercury, Venus and Jupiter all sitting on the cusp of the 9th. Mercury, at 16* Gemini gets...wow. Rigel. So whoever Mercury is (our lawyer, since Mercury is L9?) is "famed for giving honor accompanied by responsibility." And "general influence...benevolence, honor, riches, happiness, glory, renown..."

Well, I certainly hope this is our lawyer, since she (a young she) is not only working for 1/3 her normal hourly rate, but after two weeks with our case called and asked if she could do anything beyond our original retainer on contingency--how often does the lawyer ask for this instead of the other way around?--and her contingency proposal was half the normal 33 1/3 %.

Venus at 17* Gemini shares in Rigel's influence?

Jupiter at 22* Gemini also gets a number of stars, though they can be divided into two major ideas. First is Capella, or "the little she-goat." According to Lilly, Capella

...begets in the the minds of men a curiosity together with much carefulness and fearfulness; such would know all things, and itch after novelties.

Jupiter also gets the stars of Orion's belt, namely Mintaka, Anilam, and Alnitak, as well as a couple of other Orion stars (Ensis and Hatsya.) The stars of Orion's belt are associated with good fortune and a keen intellect (and the possibility of being fat.) Lilly also says "a considerable portion from the means of an inheritance; gaine by joviall persons." Jupiter also gets El Nath, which from the skyscript site

Nonetheless, El Nath enjoys a more favourable reputation than many of the stars in Taurus and is renown for giving fortune, favour and eminence, accompanied by a sharp wit. It carries some danger of quarrels, enmity, and 'many small losses' but overall its influence is a beneficial one and when harnessed, can propel and promote effectively.

Jupiter is L3, which is their L9. Could Jupiter be their own lawyer? I looked him up online (and yes, he's a little portly) and he seems to be an upright guy. Plus, our own attorney is familiar with him and says that he's a man of integrity, who helped to rewrite the rules of discovery for our state court system. The question is, with Venus and Mercury applying to Jupiter (Mercury is barring or prohibiting Venus from perfecting the conjunction, no?) do the stars just describe Jupiter, or is there some beneficial influence on the question/outcome?

Jupiter is also L5 or in the turned chart their L11. What house would represent rule insurance companies? As in Officers' and Directors' liability insurance? Would that be the 11th? Because more and more this is seeming like something that would settle out of court.

So, the players are:

Venus--us

Mars--them

Sun--the judge who is aspecting nobody and receives no one, but is separating from Mars.

Mercury--our lawyer? or someone else??

Jupiter--their lawyer? Their agent??

Moon--overall situation, also our co-significator.

Which leaves Saturn. Who or what is Saturn? The animals, or our assets, since they are a key part but otherwise seem to be unrepresented?

Since we are suing not only for the return of our assets but also for damages (and have filed against each party involved individually as well as as a group) would the $$ be their second house? Which is...Venus/us? If the querent and the quesited are the same planet, isn't that usually a yes?

Some news should be forthcoming Thursday June 20th, since we have our first hearing since this all started, on our motion for contempt of court. Our adversaries, after signing an agreement/court order initially opted to ignore their obligations re the court order, and had we not filed the motion they never would have obliged. Hopefully more to go on then.

Even if no members want to play along, this exercise is an education in horary in action.

tsmall · Jun 16, 2013

I'm pretty sure that the next thing to investigate would be the Lots. I'm thinking the Lot of Victory here, and turning the chart from the Lot of Fortune...

The chart seems to be saying we will win, in settlement, however I'm way too close. And I did learn my lesson with a previous question (back in September, "Will we get our 501(c)3 status"--and that was a no--) that if the chart says no there is a reason for it. I can see a "no" answer based on some of the aspects, but perhaps that is me projecting my own fears or escalating my own hopes onto the reading. Oh well. We are talking about approximately $80,000 in tangible assets (the animals, their enclosures, and other equipment) that were stolen, as well as about $100,000 in intangible or "soft" assets. Add in the future income that would be able to be derived from those intangibles, and perhaps we can start to see why tsmall is so terribly worried about this chart. Everything we own, everything we have sacrificed for, and every dream we have had is tied up in this one question.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

Mandy · Jun 17, 2013

tsmall, I am so sorry that you are in this position. As a learner question, is it not said that the chart should not be read if Saturn is in the 1st and if Asc is in a late degree?
I am just wondering about the extent to which this is a valid chart.

Clinton Soule · Jun 17, 2013

tsmall stated:

Lilly said that the the strongest of the significators ought to have the victory.

In this case Venus (us) is essentially dignified for being in her own term (not much, but better than nothing, and she gets a big assist from the conjunction with Mercury in Gemini. She's in the 9th for being 5* or less from the cusp of the 9th, in bright degree, free from the beams, swift...

Thank you for appealing to the Traditionalists by using Regiomontanus, and yes Anthrodite :venus:

, yourself looks to have the best of it.

I assume since I haven't as of yet read of Bright degrees(would love to hear the references to such), but the 5 degrees you mention do correlate with Lilly's 5 degree rule, of which he says '...the vertue will be given to that house...', which is the actual trial.

What worrys me upon this is the the Judge, lord of tenth, is in cjt. though combusting the lord of the 7th, your adversary. It would appear absent the Combust that the judge or jururs may initially favor your opponent.

I have a simular horary in progress though Not as clear cut as yours as you can see:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7352

These types of horarys truly need to weigh out every testimony as in Lilly's point sytem as you don't wish to fight and be defeated with cost, reputation, and the resentments it is going to cause.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

1 Samuel 20:5 World English Bible (WEB)

5 David said to Jonathan, “Behold, tomorrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to dine with the king; but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field to the third day at evening.

tsmall · Jun 17, 2013

Mandy said:
tsmall, I am so sorry that you are in this position. As a learner question, is it not said that the chart should not be read if Saturn is in the 1st and if Asc is in a late degree?
I am just wondering about the extent to which this is a valid chart.

Thanks Mandy.

I'm just a learner too. I had the same questions (and still do :annoyed:

) but I believe that if Saturn is a significator then we aren't supposed to worry about his being in the 1st house.

ASC is late, and is also Via Combust (as is Moon, but Moon is like half a degree away from being freed from it.) From what I've been reading today late ASC means I probably already know the outcome (honestly though, I don't, because it still seems like it could go either way based on what has already been allowed to happen.) Via Combust likely describes the fact that I'm freaking the freak out over the situation. Also seems to suggest that there could be a surprise outcome to the chart.

tsmall · Jun 17, 2013

Clinton Soule said:
tsmall stated:

Thank you for appealing to the Traditionalists by using Regiomontanus, and yes Anthrodite, yourself looks to have the best of it.

I assume since I haven't as of yet read of Bright degrees(would love to hear the references to such), but the 5 degrees you mention do correlate with Lilly's 5 degree rule, of which he says '...the vertue will be given to that house...', which is the actual trial.

Here is a reference for degree types.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/degree_types.html

Clinton Soule said:
What worrys me upon this is the the Judge, lord of tenth, is in cjt. though combusting the lord of the 7th, your adversary. It would appear absent the Combust that the judge or jururs may initially favor your opponent.

No joke. Initially our "oppnent/s" attempted to file an ex parte motion to simply remove the animals after the police (the officer they hired for civil standby and the ones who came when I called 911 to report the theft) said they had to have a court order. Luckily a friend of a friend reached a lawyer who appeared in our driveway in time to help my husband prevent that from happening, but what did happen was a complaint they filed listing vague allegations (with no evidence offered) of abuse and their "absolute fear" that if the animals were left in our care my husband would kill them. The judge treated it as a custody case and not a property case and refused to hear about ownership. Which is how they ended up signing an agreement, that then then chose to ignore.

Clinton Soule said:
I have a simular horary in progress though Not as clear cut as yours as you can see:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7352

I'll check it out. I wouldn't exactly call ours clearcut.

Clinton Soule said:
These types of horarys truly need to weigh out every testimony as in Lilly's point sytem as you don't wish to fight and be defeated with cost, reputation, and the resentments it is going to cause.

Absolutely. :pinched:

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

1 Samuel 20:5 World English Bible (WEB)

5 David said to Jonathan, “Behold, tomorrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to dine with the king; but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field to the third day at evening.[/QUOTE]

Clinton Soule · Jun 17, 2013

tsmall said:

I'm just a learner too. I had the same questions (and still do ) but I believe that if Saturn is a significator then we aren't supposed to worry about his being in the 1st house.

Well tsmall you are far from a beginer, maybe beyond intermediate, wish more on the Forum were as dedicated. See in my locality there is an astrologer whom has owned several bookstores that are occult oreinted, does astrology and horary yet has never heard of William F. Lilly, Dorothy J. Kovach, Deborah Holding or the Forums they host. Scarry isn't it? :w00t:

You are on the right track so don't despair, something you didn't mention was Lilly's five degree orb allowed to North Node, and your cjt with Luna is closer, you are very blessed with this.

Mandy stated:

tsmall, I am so sorry that you are in this position. As a learner question, is it not said that the chart should not be read if Saturn is in the 1st and if Asc is in a late degree?
I am just wondering about the extent to which this is a valid chart.[/

Mandy, you have been reading those Modernes like most of us start out reading, as Kronus :saturn:

in the 1st as a stricture does not mean it is unreadable, it's just a yellow caution light flashing. Note if one looks at Lilly's CA online, ebooks, in the back of CAII at all the horarys Lilly answered that have Chronor :saturn:

as lord or within the 1st!

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html

http://mithras93.tripod.com/books/books.html

Tsmall, what you are going through is like in Lilly's 4th house matters, of when he was contemplating buying Master B's House, which he did, he was involved in the horary, greatly taurean-like lusting to have that house as his possesion. And he admits that he made a mistake buying that house(RARE for taureans to admit they made a mistake, shows much integrity on his part), it would be nice if those confused :neptune:

in their Moderne Horary studies could admit they ought to be studying Traditionalism, because as artists answering our own queries we are involved and we want to have it our way, unlike when we do work for others! :pinched:

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

Matthew 2:1-12 Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

2 Therefore when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Juda, in the days of king Herod, lo! astrologers [lo! kings, or wise men,] came from the east to Jerusalem,
2 and said [saying], Where is he, that is born [the] king of Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and we have come to worship him.
3 But king Herod heard, and was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4 And he gathered together all the princes of priests, and scribes of the people, and inquired of them, where Christ should be born.
5 And they said to him, In Bethlehem of Juda; for so it is written by a prophet,
6 And thou, Bethlehem, the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda; for of thee a duke shall go out, that shall govern my people Israel.
7 Then Herod called privily the astrologers [the kings], and learned busily of them [busily learned of them] the time of the star that appeared to them.
8 And he sent them into Bethlehem, and said, Go ye, and ask ye busily of the child, and when ye have found, tell ye it to me [tell again to me], that I also come, and worship him.
9 And when they had heard the king, they went forth [went away]. And lo! the star, that they saw in the east [And lo! the star which they saw in the east], went before them, till it came, and stood above, where the child was.
10 And they saw the star, and joyed with a full great joy.
11 And they entered into the house, and found the child with Mary, his mother; and they felled down, and worshipped him. And when they had opened their treasures, they offered to him gifts, gold, incense, and myrrh.
12 And when they had taken an answer in sleep, that they should not turn again to Herod, they turned again by another way into their [own] country.[a]

As Sidney Omarr wrote '...if the astrologers in Matthew had been followers of Satan rather than of God why did they not turn in the child's where abouts to the evil King Herod?'

tsmall · Jun 17, 2013

Clinton Soule said:
Well tsmall you are far from a beginer, maybe beyond intermediate, wish more on the Forum were as dedicated.

Well thanks, but if that were true I'd at least be able to figure out all the significators and not still be quessing.

Clinton Soule said:
You are on the right track so don't despair, something you didn't mention was Lilly's five degree orb allowed to North Node, and your cjt with Luna is closer, you are very blessed with this.

And that ASC is conjunct Spica and Antares, so about the only place in the Via Combust that has any fortune associated with it.

The thing is, Mr. Soule, the Moon is very close to it's North Node. There's a reason for that, since the Moon was eclipsed two days after I asked this question. And yes, as an astrology student I knew the stars weren't in very good places in the sky at the time, and I knew we were at the end of a three eclipse cycle that might not bode well for questions. Believe me when I say I considered asking for many weeks (from April 9th until May 23rd) before I finally figured out that it's ok to ask the question. The stars align the way they do for a reason. And the reason will be reflected in the chart.

Clinton Soule said:
Mandy, you have been reading those Modernes like most of us start out reading, as Kronus in the 1st as a stricture does not mean it is unreadable, it's just a yellow caution light flashing. Note if one looks at Lilly's CA online, ebooks, in the back of CAII at all the horarys Lilly answered that have Chronoras lord or within the 1st!

I don't think it's just Mandy, or necessarily the fault of "modern" horary astrologers. It takes a while to work through all the literature (I haven't) to be able to understand that that the strictures against judgement, whether from Lilly or Bonati or any of a number of ancients don't mean we can't read the chart. They just are like the little warning signs you see on the road when you're driving. Like "caution, watch for falling rocks," or "ess curves ahead," or slow down, idiot, it's not cool to go 100 mph in a 20 mph zone.

Clinton Soule said:
Tsmall, what you are going through is like in Lilly's 4th house matters, of when he was contemplating buying Master B's House, which he did, he was involved in the horary, greatly taurean-like lusting to have that house as his possesion. And he admits that he made a mistake buying that house(RARE for taureans to admit they made a mistake, shows much integrity on his part), it would be nice if those confused in their Moderne Horary studies could admit they ought to be studying Traditionalism, because as artists answering our own queries we are involved and we want to have it our way, unlike when we do work for others!

I actually recorded the time the question arrived to me full blown (on my drive home from work) to share with another friend who is an astrologer precisely because we are not supposed to read our own questions. I didn't make the chart for a couple of days after that.

Exactly for the reasons you illustrate with the Lilly example is why I'm trying to be objective, and why I posted this chart in the forum. When I first approached it with Lilly's methods it looked like a slam dunk. Given the state of my own natal 8th house, well, let's just say slam dunk seems highly unlikely.

I wouldn't say I'm "lusting" after anything, though I did catch the Taurean reference

, I happen to be a highly Libran person. Perhaps that is why I wish to explore all the things that can go wrong with the outcome. Do I dream of a big settlement? Well I admit it would be nice. At this point, I just want to make sure that justice will be served, but more importantly since we have already started rebuilding our zoo, and have already had cancelled or taken most of their contracts...I just want this over, and the allegations dropped.

I believe I mentioned that we need permits to conduct business? USDA, US Fisheries and Wildlife, and our state's Fish and Game division. The permits were transferred into the name of the non profit, and so with the separation we needed to reapply for them in the name of our business. USDA happened lightening fast, Fisheries and Wildlife is on it's way, but Fish and Game is dragging its feet until the situation is resolved.

What I truly would like to hear is all the ways it could go against us. Ptolemy said it best when he said that Prescience is Useful. Because if you can face the worst ahead of time and figure out a plan, then you can approach your fate calmer in mind.

BobZemco · Jun 17, 2013

tsmall said:
Well, perhaps if I talk to myself here I can figure it out.

Before doing that, you should start at the beginning, which means evaluating to see if, and how, the Planets will perform: good or bad.

The Ascendant --- not late for a legal chart -- is Libra, Ruler Venus.

Venus is a Night Planet, and works best when she is in the Night Sky, not the Day Sky. If Venus is in the Day Sky, Venus should be east of Sun, rising ahead of him, not behind him. Venus is also in Gemini, a Masculine Sign and in the 9th Sign/House, which is a Masculine House.

Those three things together make Venus Out-of-Sect.

A Planet that is Out-of-Sect signifies something or someone that is not what they appear to be; that is doing something contrary to its own nature or what it would normally do; or is doing something wholly inappropriate.

Does any Planet harm or help Venus?

Mercury is joining Venus. Mercury is a Feminine Planet in this Chart, because Mercury is rising behind Sun. When Mercury rises ahead of Sun, he is a Masculine Planet. Being a Feminine Planet, Mercury ought to be Below the Horizon, but it is not, and like Venus, Mercury is a Feminine Planet in a Masculine Sign and Masculine House....Mercury is Out-of-Sect.

We can say the same for Mercury as Venus, plus add to that Mercury is Out-of-Bounds and in a Pitted Degree.

The only saving grace here is Mutual Reception, Venus receives Mercury by Term, and Mercury receives Venus by Sign.

Are those Planets Malefic in any way?

No, so we can refine our judgment to Planets acting contrary to their nature (think of Stan & Bran: "Did you call the next witness? I don't have the phone number" --- kind of thing).

Mars rules the opposition, Peregrine, sitting in a Pitted Degree, within 12° of the Tail, and in Taurus, which is the 8th Sign....in indicator of failure.

That's a good thing for you.

Unlike Pitted Mercury who gets a slight boost from Benefic Venus to help negate some of the unfortunate circumstances, Mars gets no help at all, but is not further harmed by any other Planets. Mars is also Under Beams and Escaping combustion, moving toward his 1st Station.

The 10th Sign in this chart is Cancer, ruled by Scorpio Moon. The next aspect Moon makes is an opposition with Sun then Mercury. Note that both Mercury and Saturn will go retrograde soon, frustrating whatever that was to be. It's worth noting that Mercury rules your opponent's 6th House of Animals, indicating they might be forced to return whatever it was they took...forced because Retrograde Mercury will be colliding with Sun (in an Human Sign).

Moon cannot aspect Venus, because Mercury blocks Venus.

Venus, Mercury and Jupiter are assembling at 20°, 21° and 22° respectively. I would like to tell you what that means, but I've never seen an assembly operate in a legal chart before. Mercury, being the strongest by being most dignified (Jupiter is a Day Planet in a Masculine Sign/House and so in Hayz and that helps to offset some of the Detriment Gemini causes --- even so Jupiter is Peregrine) will rule the assembly.

I'm inclined to believe it to be a positive for you, since both Jupiter and Venus (Benefics) are received by Sign Ruler Mercury.

Note that Jupiter rules your 6th.

If there are any surprises in the Chart, that would be Mercury and Saturn changing direction, with Mercury going Retrograde, and Saturn going Direct about 12 days apart.

The other thing worth noting is placement of the Head/Tail in the 2nd/8th.

dr. farr · Jun 18, 2013

I'll add that the opposition's significator, Mars, is additionally detrimented by being conjunct Algol.

tsmall · Jun 18, 2013

Merci, Bob, I think I slept better last night after reading your post than I have in a couple of months.

BobZemco said:
Before doing that, you should start at the beginning, which means evaluating to see if, and how, the Planets will perform: good or bad.

The Ascendant --- not late for a legal chart -- is Libra, Ruler Venus.

Venus is a Night Planet, and works best when she is in the Night Sky, not the Day Sky. If Venus is in the Day Sky, Venus should be east of Sun, rising ahead of him, not behind him. Venus is also in Gemini, a Masculine Sign and in the 9th Sign/House, which is a Masculine House.

Those three things together make Venus Out-of-Sect.

To bad we don't have a smiley for banging your head on the desk. I knew that, I know that, and still I missed that. :pinched:

BobZemco said:
A Planet that is Out-of-Sect signifies something or someone that is not what they appear to be; that is doing something contrary to its own nature or what it would normally do; or is doing something wholly inappropriate.

This has by far got to be the best and easiest to understand key to interpreting sect I have read.

BobZemco said:
Does any Planet harm or help Venus?

Mercury is joining Venus. Mercury is a Feminine Planet in this Chart, because Mercury is rising behind Sun. When Mercury rises ahead of Sun, he is a Masculine Planet. Being a Feminine Planet, Mercury ought to be Below the Horizon, but it is not, and like Venus, Mercury is a Feminine Planet in a Masculine Sign and Masculine House....Mercury is Out-of-Sect.

We can say the same for Mercury as Venus, plus add to that Mercury is Out-of-Bounds and in a Pitted Degree.

The only saving grace here is Mutual Reception, Venus receives Mercury by Term, and Mercury receives Venus by Sign.

Are those Planets Malefic in any way?

No, so we can refine our judgment to Planets acting contrary to their nature (think of Stan & Bran: "Did you call the next witness? I don't have the phone number" --- kind of thing).

This is so accurate it isn't even funny. The entire situation is "contrary to our nature" or anything we've ever had to deal with and has forced us to do things we normally wouldn't. As far as Mercury, well she's mostly worked on family court stuff and this case is pretty far out of her wheelhouse as well. The Stan & Bran analogy is completely perfect.

BobZemco said:
Mars rules the opposition, Peregrine, sitting in a Pitted Degree, within 12° of the Tail, and in Taurus, which is the 8th Sign....in indicator of failure.

That's a good thing for you.

Unlike Pitted Mercury who gets a slight boost from Benefic Venus to help negate some of the unfortunate circumstances, Mars gets no help at all, but is not further harmed by any other Planets. Mars is also Under Beams and Escaping combustion, moving toward his 1st Station.

So something like they've done their worst and now have to live with it? I was rather hoping the non-profit would have to fold, but this sounds a bit like they may be able to cut their losses and regroup when all is said and done.

BobZemco said:
The 10th Sign in this chart is Cancer, ruled by Scorpio Moon. The next aspect Moon makes is an opposition with Sun then Mercury. Note that both Mercury and Saturn will go retrograde soon, frustrating whatever that was to be. It's worth noting that Mercury rules your opponent's 6th House of Animals, indicating they might be forced to return whatever it was they took...forced because Retrograde Mercury will be colliding with Sun (in an Human Sign).

I have to admit that the chart made more sense to me (because Cancer is intercepted) when I looked at it in whole signs.

We miss them. It's been too quiet here. We also know that at least one of them has died since the move.

BobZemco said:
Moon cannot aspect Venus, because Mercury blocks Venus.

Venus, Mercury and Jupiter are assembling at 20°, 21° and 22° respectively. I would like to tell you what that means, but I've never seen an assembly operate in a legal chart before. Mercury, being the strongest by being most dignified (Jupiter is a Day Planet in a Masculine Sign/House and so in Hayz and that helps to offset some of the Detriment Gemini causes --- even so Jupiter is Peregrine) will rule the assembly.

Since all the players will be assembling on Thursday I'll post an update. Assembly also implies agreeing in the journey, right? Maybe this is testimony that a settlement will be reached.

BobZemco said:
I'm inclined to believe it to be a positive for you, since both Jupiter and Venus (Benefics) are received by Sign Ruler Mercury.

Note that Jupiter rules your 6th.

If there are any surprises in the Chart, that would be Mercury and Saturn changing direction, with Mercury going Retrograde, and Saturn going Direct about 12 days apart.

The other thing worth noting is placement of the Head/Tail in the 2nd/8th.

I haven't spent much time with the nodes. This is a good thing, right? For us I mean?

JUPITERASC · Jun 18, 2013

dr. farr said:
I'll add that the opposition's significator, Mars, is additionally detrimented by being conjunct Algol.

Conjunct 'in mundo' aka mundane aspect?

OR

Conjunct 'in zodiaco' aka conventional zodiacal aspect?

OR BOTH?

'in mundo' aka mundane aspects work irrespective of whether using Sidereal or Tropical so this article link is relevant

ASPECTS IN MUNDO BY KENNETH BOWSER http://www.westernsiderealastrology.com/articles/aspects_in_mundo.pdf#!articles/cbov

JUPITERASC · Jun 18, 2013

MARTIN GANSTEN on Mundane aspects:

'….There are (at least) three quite different varieties of mundane aspects:

The ancients used (when they used them) aspect angles calculated by oblique ascension. If the point on the celestial equator rising with planet A was 120 degrees distant from the point on the celestial equator rising with planet B, then, by this reckoning, planets A and B were in ascensional trine.

16th century, Magini suggested calculating aspect angles in right ascension - planets' positions are projected directly onto celestial equator, if two such projections happen to be 120 degrees apart, then the planets in question are considered to trine....'

'….The method most in vogue today (among the few who use non-zodiacal aspects at all) is the one invented by Placidus in 17th century, which is based on proportional semi-arcs.

Every semi-arc is equated to 90 degrees, so that if planet A is exactly on the ascendant, and planet B has gone one-third of the way from the midheaven to the descendant, then planets A and B are considered to form a mundane trine....'

dr. farr · Jun 18, 2013

Algol conjunct Mars by conventional zodiacal (longitudinal) definition.

tsmall · Jun 19, 2013

BobZemco said:
Venus, Mercury and Jupiter are assembling at 20°, 21° and 22° respectively. I would like to tell you what that means, but I've never seen an assembly operate in a legal chart before. Mercury, being the strongest by being most dignified (Jupiter is a Day Planet in a Masculine Sign/House and so in Hayz and that helps to offset some of the Detriment Gemini causes --- even so Jupiter is Peregrine) will rule the assembly.

I was rushed this morning, but I meant to ask re the degrees. I get Mercury and Venus at 16 and 17 of Gemini, but I know when I first loaded the chart into either Oracle or Morinus (I forget which, since I did both) I got 20 and 21 for Mercury and Venus. It's not important, I was just wondering since I always have to scroow around with the charts and time to get them right in both programs.

At any rate...agreeing in the journey and assembly. I would swear that their lawyer is helping us. Perhaps not intentionally, but. From our first communication with him all the way up to today when both their response to our counter suit as well as supporting documentation (which completely contradicts what is said in the response)...call it gut or whatever you will, but I get the feeling that while he may not actively be helping us, he certainly isn't hurting us. And I swear he's leaving little sign posts along the way for us to pick up on.

I only mention this because we were talking about sect, and planets acting contrary to their nature. Jupiter is of the sect of the chart, and as you explained in hayz (still have a bruise on my forehead from that one, and I guarantee I won't forget again) does it work similarly in horary as it does in natal? As in, the ASC ruler is out of sect, but it's a day chart. Which means all the diurnal planets in a natal chart want to work with the native as much as they are able? In this case, if possible do all the diurnal planets want to work with the querent?

Meanwhile, Thursday has gone from a hearing on our motion for contempt to a hearing on all the pretrial motions. Including our motion to dismiss the original complaint due to lack of standing. The minutes sent to us by their attorney, as well as the recording they made of the meeting when all this happened, clearly show that there was never a resolution authorizing the board president to enter into an engagement (a court complaint) as outlined in the by laws of the non profit...and even with the Supreme Court decision on Citizen's United, corporations are still prohibited from representing themselves in court. Meaning that they needed to have a lawyer file the original complaint and not a member of the board.

I'll post an update when I have one, but wouldn't it be fantastic (I'm not holding my breath here..my life never works out like this...but my husband's does) if the unexpected event is the whole case being dismissed?

I tried the idea of making an even chart for the time of the hearing, but the problem is that with NH Superior Court all the cases on the docket are called for the same time. Meaning our hearing could be any time between 9 am when court convenes and 1 pm when it recesses for lunch.

Someone ought to tell them this doesn't work for astrologers.

tsmall · Jun 19, 2013

dr. farr said:
I'll add that the opposition's significator, Mars, is additionally detrimented by being conjunct Algol.

I saw that too.

tsmall said:
Speaking of Mars, at 24* Taurus he gets quite a few fixed stars. Capalus, or the hilt of Perseus' sword. Possibility of willful blindness? Associated with blindness of some sort. As well as leaping to action without being able to look directly at the face of his opponent. (If that isn't an apt metaphor for this situation I don't know what would be.) There is also the possibility of a passionate energy "that can dissipate or turn inward due to a lack of focus."

Well, since their initial complaint was filed and they stole our property (did I mention that they also trespassed in our private residence as well as removing our animals from our facility prior to obtaining a court order?) they have lost 5 board members, the disgruntled employee who started this all was promoted to executive director and then demoted to co-director, and one employee was forced to quit. Lack of focus? Maybe.

Mars also gets Segin, which represents "beauty spoiled by vanity and greed, and a mother's pride falling into humility." Interesting bit, that, in light of what I said about Saturn's stars.

Most noticeably, Mars gets Algol. Lilly gave a whopping 5* and -4 detriment points for planets conjunct Algol, it's that malefic. "...indication of decapitation, hanging, or danger to the head." Ok, I'll admit that I've been a little vengeful, but I seriously don't want anyone to die. I'm wondering if this might also be more metaphoric, as in could this indicate the board president (the "head") being severed from the rest of the organization? In our counter suit we have filed against each party individually due to the egregious nature of what they did. Could the "head" be severed and left on the hook for all of it? Or, could it be an indication of them tying their own noose and then hanging from it??

dr. farr, what do you think Mars conjunct Algol means here?

dr. farr · Jun 19, 2013

Could add to the opponents detrimented situation (Mars detriment), might indicate their hurting their own case by extreme claims, even extreme or very hostile, actions.
Will PM you my fuller delineation of your horary over next day (hopefully by Thursday at the latest)

BobZemco · Jun 19, 2013

tsmall said:
Since all the players will be assembling on Thursday I'll post an update. Assembly also implies agreeing in the journey, right?

Yes. I should have clarified that when looking at an Assembly (the Stellium in Modern Astrology), you have to weigh the actors involved.

Two Planets are [inherently] Benefic: Jupiter and Venus
Two Planets are Malefic: Saturn and Mars
Two Planets can be both: Sun and Mercury

There's a disagreement among the ancients as to whether Jupiter/Venus can ever be truly Malefic (and likewise for Saturn/Mars being truly Benefic).

If Sun/Mercury are Unfortunate (Retrograde Mercury or either in Detriment/Fall, in the Term of a Malefic, having the Malefics "look" at them from other Signs/Houses, with the Tail, etc) and the are in square or opposition aspect, or joined by body without Reception (except for Cazimi) they can be Malefic.

What we see here is Mercury traveling from a Benefic -- Venus -- to a Benefic -- Jupiter, and within the context of an Assembly.

In any chart, Natal, Mundane Event, Horary, Electional, when a Planet (especially a significator) is moving from a Benefic to a Benefic, or is enclosed or "besieged" by Benefics, that is a good/positive thing.

And, yes, Planetary Speed matters (Saturn is never going to move to Venus), but even Saturn besieged by Benefics is a good thing.

We already established that Mercury is Benefic here...yes, Pitted, but that only shows the state of mind/being of what Mercury represents, and indicates whether Mercury can function to its fullest potential.

So, Venus is moving from a Benefic Mercury, to Benefic Jupiter, which is good and that's why I said I was inclined to believe the Assembly to be positive/good over all.

All of that applies as well to a Planet traveling from a Malefic to a Benefic, and also separating from a Malefic to Benefic, as well as from a Benefic to a Malefic, or being enclosed or besieged by Malefics.

tsmall said:
Maybe this is testimony that a settlement will be reached.

Possibly...it certainly looks like it.

tsmall said:
I haven't spent much time with the nodes. This is a good thing, right? For us I mean?

Generally, yes.

tsmall said:
I only mention this because we were talking about sect, and planets acting contrary to their nature.

Really important. One of the keys to correctly reading a chart.

Understand that a person/thing doing something contrary to its nature or what it normally does is not the same thing as being hesitant or reluctant, since the activity or behavior is already taking place.

Mars is not Out-of-Sect, and seeing how Mars is Pitted, with Algol, Peregrine, and in Detriment and with the Tail in Taurus, that is who they are ---freaking mean people --- and seeing how Taurus represents animals, they probably shouldn't be allowed within 100 meters of any animal, including orang-u-tans and wallabies.

tsmall said:
Jupiter is of the sect of the chart, and as you explained in hayz (still have a bruise on my forehead from that one, and I guarantee I won't forget again) does it work similarly in horary as it does in natal? As in, the ASC ruler is out of sect, but it's a day chart. Which means all the diurnal planets in a natal chart want to work with the native as much as they are able? In this case, if possible do all the diurnal planets want to work with the querent?

Okay, for general guidelines in refining judgments on Out-of-Sect Planets, if the Planet is Fortunate or otherwise in decent condition, it signifies a person or thing that is acting contrary to its nature, often doing things it would not normally do. The outcome may be good or bad.

In all cases, you have to refine your judgment within the context of the chart and chart type.

Natally, suppose the Significator of Wealth was Out-of-Sect? That tells you a lot about the Native's finances and wealth, and correctly delineating the chart ---- Planet [& Condition], Sign, House, Aspect Always is what helps you do that.

Within the context of the chart, the Native may be frugal, but occasionally act contrary to his nature and splurge a little. Suppose the 9th House/Sign was involved, then perhaps the Native spends money occasionally to take foreign holidays....maybe the Native is frugal precisely because they want to save money for foreign holidays.

Suppose Moon is Out-of-Sect, then perhaps an occasional emotional outburst, or if Moon with Saturn then occasionally doing something on the spur-of-the-moment, or Moon with Mars, some risk-taking (and if Mars is the Significator of Wealth then financial risk taking).

If Venus was in Fall, Detriment, with Tail, with her own Nodes etc, I would have concluded that what you were doing was wholly inappropriate....and that runs the gamut from something as [seemingly] innocent as mediating a dispute between family, your children, your friends, your neighbors or co-workers all the way to criminal activity.

Read the chart; look at the Significators involved. That's why I used to say if you don't want it know, don't post a chart, because there's a few people here who will know who and what they are....one cannot hide from us.

You see Out-of-Sect Planets a lot in relationship charts. The Querent may be married or involved in a relationship, and inappropriately pursuing another, or it could be the Quesited, or it could be that the relationship is in appropriate on religious grounds, moral grounds, Social Class or any number of other factors (read the chart), and the outcome could be harmful to someone, or not. Yes, the outcome could be positive.

For job queries, what the Querent is doing may be inappropriate --- Should I quit my job/seek another job? No, that would be inappropriate or inappropriate at this time.

Often the job itself is inappropriate to the Querent, meaning the querent applied for a job they are not qualified or trained to perform.

In Buying/Selling, is the Querent acting appropriately? Is this something the Querent ought to be doing? Is the item itself appropriate or inappropriate?

In Natal Charts, again for the Moon, it might indicate someone who is prone to emotional outbursts, rather than occasionally venting. If the Significator of Wealth is involved, it could be a person that spends money inappropriately....why? Read the chart...there's a difference between people who spend money to soothe/comfort themselves, and those just blow it at every opportunity.

What if it was the Significator of Marriage? They might pursue relationships that are inappropriate, or for other 7th House Matters, they might go after business relationships that are not appropriate, and then there's the 11th House and Friends, and 3rd House relationships with siblings, 4th House Relationships with parents and so on.

If Venus was Retrograde, or in aspect with Malefics without Reception, then I would have concluded that you/the situation is not what it appears to be, perhaps to the point where you have misrepresented it.

You see that a lot in relationship charts, Mundane Event charts, job charts, Buying/Selling and such. The Querent/Quesited is not who or what they appear to be. Maybe the employer misrepresented the job, maybe the Querent is misrepresenting his education, training or qualifications, or maybe the Querent has misinterpreted the job description, and so either the Querent ends up regretting having taken the job, or maybe the Querent loves the fact that the job wasn't as presented, or maybe the Querent doesn't give a **** one way or another.

Buyers and Sellers can misrepresent themselves, the objects being bought or sold could be misrepresented intentionally, or accidentally. You think buying an hybrid car will save money, but not in reality, that kind of thing.

Natally, it works both ways: a Out-of-Sect significator for the native could be that the Native appears to be a good person, but is really evil, or may appear to be an evil person, but is really a good person. They appear dumb, but are smart; appear smart but are dumb; appear to have many friends, but don't, their friends aren't really what they appear to be, their family (parents) are really what they appear to be. Wealth or the source of wealth is not what it seems.

Involving Mercury or Moon/Mercury, a person who exaggerates, or appears to be emotionally stable but really isn't. 9th House connections, someone who pretends to be religious.

Out-of-Sect Significators can reveal people who are prone to extra-marital affairs, who engage in unusual sexual behaviors, who engage in criminal activity, who are devious, who are hypocrites and whatnot.

It isn't always bad, since sometime you'd actually want a Significator to be Out-of-Sect for something positive, like a Mars that might otherwise be violent, but acts contrary to its nature or misrepresents itself, appearing to be something that it really isn't.

Anyway, Out-of-Sect really isn't about cooperating or helping (that's Reception), but more about performing as is was intended to perform. Think of using a knife as spoon, or a spoon as a fork....that's contrary to their intent and it may or may not be good/positive (or bad/negative).

You can use a spoon instead of a fork to eat rice, and that will work out quite well, but using a fork for a bowl of soup is going to be frustrating and aggravating (or maybe not).

dr. farr said:
Could add to the opponents detrimented situation (Mars detriment), might indicate their hurting their own case by extreme claims, even extreme or very hostile, actions.

I could not agree more.

Clinton Soule · Jun 19, 2013

Tsmall stated:

Here is a reference for degree types.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/degree_types.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clinton Soule What worrys me upon this is the the Judge, lord of tenth, is in cjt. though combusting the lord of the 7th, your adversary. It would appear absent the Combust that the judge or jururs may initially favor your opponent.

No joke. Initially our "oppnent/s" attempted to file an ex parte motion to simply remove the animals after the police (the officer they hired for civil standby and the ones who came when I called 911 to report the theft) said they had to have a court order. Luckily a friend of a friend reached a lawyer who appeared in our driveway in time to help my husband prevent that from happening, but what did happen was a complaint they filed listing vague allegations (with no evidence offered) of abuse and their "absolute fear" that if the animals were left in our care my husband would kill them. The judge treated it as a custody case and not a property case and refused to hear about ownership. Which is how they ended up signing an agreement, that then then chose to ignore.

Thanks for the link Tsmall, it turns out I have read of that several times, but in the study of Lilly's CA and the Ancients he gleaned wisdom from many times being studious is like those whom study diligently their Bibles yet miss all of the Pro-astrological references. Or those in many Islamic dominated nations who all have a different understanding or different confusion of their Queran(Koran) as evidenced by various Moslem nations where their laws are interpreted differently yet based upon the Koran. It always amazes me how many of the world's best horary authoritys who swear by Lilly occasionally get caught in the quagmire of showing that they missed some things Lilly taught.

And I'm no exception, we all need to be reminded of what Lilly and the Ancients were actually saying or teaching! :rightful:

We know that Lilly generally gives the conjunction a positive view or verdict, yet that combustion to their Lord, Lucifer :mars:

will in the finality work against them. I just read the symbology as the cjt was in the beginning helping them. And you affirm that it has.

Max Heindel, of the Rosicrucian Fellowship, wrote from the Germantic astrologers who influenced him that Mars was devil-like, Lucifer. And this sure sounds like your opponents. :devil:

Note in CAI, when Lilly talks about the Houses that Lilly says Mars correlates to the 8th, secretive lil devil :devil:

. And your advocates friends and is it not also his attorneys are represented by the 8th, their 2nd?

That is a plus for them!

But their ruler combust will eventually hurt them badly as Lilly states '...combustion is about the worst that can happen to a planet...'.

As the 8th is investigation for you and occult research which you are using very well. :rightful:

Note that your lord, Anphrodite :venus:

is in the 8th; not a great place, ugly in the 8th. Now many ultra trads on forums like skyskript will say the wording Accidental Fall is entirely Moderne, from the Mod Squad, but Lilly in telling us about the houses is showing the correlations between the houses and signs as well as the planets ruling the signs relate also to houses.

Tsmall said:

I would swear that their lawyer is helping us. Perhaps not intentionally, but. From our first communication with him all the way up to today when both their response to our counter suit as well as supporting documentation (which completely contradicts what is said in the response)...call it gut or whatever you will, but I get the feeling that while he may not actively be helping us, he certainly isn't hurting us. And I swear he's leaving little sign posts along the way for us to pick up on.

I only mention this because we were talking about sect, and planets acting contrary to their nature.

If I understand Lilly correctly their Lawyer is in their 2nd, the horary's 8th. The lawyer isn't helping you, he is spying on you and promoting their cause.

Tsmall you have to remember two things dealing with the attorneys.

1) What is the difference between a Lawyer and a prostitute? Prostitutes will stop fornicating with you when you are dead!

2) What are the simularitys between lawyers and prostitutes? Neither will or can tell one the truth and they are both dedicated to the art of fornicating with others :lol:

!

Tsmall I know it's tedious, and most horary artists it appears upon this Forum want to minimize the work and as you can see many beginers wish to get caught in the trap of of using only the first aspect to the matter. But this is major, how about walking through Lilly's Point Count method, and I'll join in and help you? Lilly used it because he knew the validity of weighing the different testimonies against each other.

For many on here don't seem to have the dedication of BobZemco, Dr.Farr, and Rafaella. You do have dedication, and every horary we do is like we are tackling a major problem, trouble-shooting; therefore they need us to take our horary seriously.

Clinton Garrett Soule

Wise men truly know how little they know

The Piscean Master told of astrological revelations according to:

Luke 21:25 New King James Version

[ The Coming of the Son of Man ] “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;

Will we win our lawsuit?

tsmall

Attachments

tsmall

tsmall

Mandy

Well-known member

Clinton Soule

Banned

tsmall

tsmall

Clinton Soule

Banned

tsmall

BobZemco

Well-known member

dr. farr

Well-known member

tsmall

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

dr. farr

Well-known member

tsmall

tsmall

dr. farr

Well-known member

BobZemco

Well-known member

Clinton Soule

Banned