Personal Outer Planets

byjove

Account Closed
Hi everyone,

so I'm looking at Saturn and Urnaus in my chart were conjunct AND retrograde at birth. Saturn is the apex of a T-square, so I keen an eye on him, but what I keep forgetting is he's conjunct Uranus in my chart. Saturn also rules my 7th, so I'd like to understand how this works. Everything I read about that kind of conjunction mentions how many people can potentially be born with it, so how do I personalize it?

Is dignity the answer? Saturn in control here?

:wink:
 
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Mark

Well-known member
Actually, Uranus outweighs Saturn on this one. I don't recall whether or not I've done this before, but I entered the birth information from your posted chart into my software to "see the unseen" (linked below). The very first thing that jumps out at me is the fact that Uranus is conjunct the SgrA* (galactic centre) with less than 0.1° of variation. I'm not even sure I would call Saturn and Uranus conjunct, given that they are 5.62° apart.

http://www.twelvestaralmanac.com/cg...ngitude=-6.25&latitude=53.333333&elevation=10

One odd thing is that my software indicates your ascendant is in early Leo and the chart from astro.com indicates late Cancer. That's unusual because both are based on the same software package. I double and triple checked the information and I don't see a discrepancy. If this change is accurate, that means both Saturn and Uranus are in the 5th house, rather than having the 6th house cusp sitting between them.

After Uranus, the signs of Pisces and Aries hold all the cards you should examine. The Sun, Jupiter, and North node are all in Aries. This indicates that you should be learning to develop proper control of Mars/Aries influences. You must rule them or they will rule you. Actually, Uranus would help them rule you if you let them take control. Venus and Mercury are in Pisces, giving you the mental and emotional tools that you will need in order to control Mars/Aries. Mars is placed in Gemini, which reinforces this conclusion.

I also notice that the osculating lunar apogee is placed in Cancer. That means that Cancer tendencies are bad for your life and development. When you work in a Cancer sort of mindset, you will create discord and disharmony for yourself and those around you. You need to work with a Pisces mindset, commanding the strength of Aries. There are a lot of strong influences within you and they will require the force of will to control them.

P.S. Your many, many contraparallels are also interesting. Check those out in the aspect lists of each planet after following the link above.
 

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byjove

Account Closed
Hi Mark,

Thanks for taking a look.

Starting with the AC, I can't tell you how many times I asked myself the same question. I've gone through the books learning step by step what the computer does. I sent an email asking about this to a VERY popular astrology site and they told me in the most pompous fashion I've heard in my life, that they are exceedingly accurate, and that's that! Hah!

I was born in Dublin, which as you know lies a little west of Grenwich, so the Sun does not rise in both places at the same time of the morning (or any part of the day for the AC), however, as is common around the world, Ireland uses another time zone for regional simplicity; and uses GMT 0. How does this figure? Most programs I've used says late Cancer, some did say early Leo though.

This aside, even with late Cancer rising, Saturn retrograde at the end of the 5th, I image would have great impact in the 5th than the 6th? While the Mercury conjunct MC is direct and conjunct an angle; not any old cusp, and might be more strongly felt in the 10th? Saturn also conjuncts the Part of Fortune.

And Uranus outweighs Saturn? Is it that the natural Uranus influences are at home in the Saggittarian atmosphere? Saturn however holds the strongest aspect in the chart; with the Sun no less, trine, 0.01 degrees. As I say as my 7th ruler I'm trying to understand all of that.

I've researched contraparallels before but on the internet I think the resources are scarce; I need to invest in a good astro. book on more complex things.
 

byjove

Account Closed
Mark wrote:

One odd thing is that my software indicates your ascendant is in early Leo and the chart from astro.com indicates late Cancer. That's unusual because both are based on the same software package. I double and triple checked the information and I don't see a discrepancy. If this change is accurate, that means both Saturn and Uranus are in the 5th house, rather than having the 6th house cusp sitting between them.


By any chance is it one hour discrepancy; one hour of daylight savings time, since an April birth was using it for summer time?
 

byjove

Account Closed
Hi Cap,

1. TR; I've just moved abroad to study and am all set up here. I read that TR Uranus conjunct any angle can have the affect of leaving your country. Also, I did read that during the roll-out of this TR, people often buy their first computer or experience a surge in interest in technology. While I've always loved this thinigs, I can confirm a bit of an explosion in my thirst and ability in technology. But is that really significant enought? Moving abroad, maybe? TR Jupiter, I don't recognise anything yet. Maybe the move is tied in again with PR Moon conjunct AC? Otherwise, nothing else to report.

2. Ura/Sat. I totally understand everything you said about this. My mind is torn between these two. It's not reckless, but it certainly takes time to integrate opposing approaches and feelings and ideas.

3. Chiron, I just can't register. I can't start with that at least.

4. Parents? If I had to pick planets to represent my parents, I'd say dad; Mercury in Pisces maybe. Mother; Moon or Saturn, definitely!
 

byjove

Account Closed
I can tell you the date I moved country with confidence; I planned it some time in advance, and also had to take a year out of college to save for it; so watched and prepared with intense focus...

15th September 2010

It's expected to last roughly a year as I go home probably early July 2011. With the economic/political meltdown at home I intend to finish the last year of my degree and head abroad again...:love:

I'm attaching my astro.com calculated chart (late Cancer AC). You'll see TR Jupiter conjunct Uranus dancing on my MC, both planets within one degree orb and Uranus pretty much bouncing on the MC. Would this be a good, clear sign of correct time of birth? (I hope so, I really want that Saturn/7th husband, not Uranus/7th :surprised::surprised::surprised:).
 
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Frisiangal

Well-known member
Hi,
Mark: Is it possible that the house system you use takes another manner of calculations into account than Astro.com? Although the angles should be the same in every system and apart from different house cusps, I noticed the word 'elevation' on the chart data you provided. I am not 'technique' knowledgeable but I understand that this has something to do with a position above rather than along the ecliptic that can provide differences in (portions of) degrees.

byJove:
so how do I personalize it?


I would personally think this would come from the aspects to the personal planets on the T-square. Moon refers to automatism, habit, over which Saturn would apply (authoritarian) 'control'. Moon applies to Saturn. 'It's always been that way; leave it so'.
Mercury, however, refers to how the mentality works. It's in the sign opposing its rulership!! There's no more 'going by proof' that Virgo requires and more of a learning process (Placidus 3rd house cusp on Virgo) through sensitivity of feeling. Mercury and Uranus may have similarities of golf length mentality, yet Uranus applies to and is pulled by Mercury. It's Mercury that has the say, to which Uranus may reply, 'Oh, yeah? There are other ideas/ways, you know. Do you really think and feel that it's so with all the 'faith' (Pisces) of mind you possess, or do you only 'believe'(Sagittarius) that it's possible and there are other alternatives?'

I would think that (anti-) 'religion' (Sagittarius) into which one is born is a primary factor in such a way of thinking. Yet, it is only the beginning and but one part of a total change of Mercury-Uranus thought that Moon-Saturn will face and come up against until such a time that Sun trine Saturn-Uranus can take over.

Mark : I also notice that the osculating lunar apogee is placed in Cancer. That means that Cancer tendencies are bad for your life and development. When you work in a Cancer sort of mindset, you will create discord and disharmony for yourself and those around you.

I'm not so sure of that.:smile:
The lunar apogee, the Black Moon called Lilith, shows a point of emptiness, that where nothing 'physically' occurs. In Cancer it would appear to try its hardest 'to turn off/away from feeling' because there is a strong sense of not belonging anywhere. Through an inner sense of self-protection a subject will inwardly act as if it does not care, whereas its inner longing is 'to feel' something which, deep down, it usually does. It seems to have something very instinctual about it. Moon in Virgo can be so proof-baked that it will take nothing on hearsay, let alone 'gut feeling'. Horoscopes I have seen with Black Moon Lilith in a water sign or house are often of those who are 'not encumbered by Earthly boundaries'. Their 'sense' regarding something is very strong; it's just sometimes difficult to grasp 'to make sense of it'. That which is thought to no longer exist/be extinct takes a creative form 'within them'. In opposition to Neptune there can be physical disassociation, a sense of abandonment, including from 9th house belief/health systems! Neptune dissolves the boundaries imposed by Capricorn's physical manifestation, whereby Black Moon's 'gut feeling' is released and free to work. The deep inner desire to reach 'the source of all things' could well be found in the 12th house position.
Byjove may travel the world round, yet deep down he will feel tied by the 'family bonds' that he may try so hard to shake off. 'Going home' may one day mean more to him than he can now imagine.:wink:
 

Mark

Well-known member
As to the difference in ascendant direction, I considered a time discrepancy might be the cause, but it wasn't. Both charts were erected for the same time UTC on the same date. My site uses the same software package as astro.com, the Swiss Ephemeris. The elevation option is geographical elevation and the average for Dublin is only one metre higher than what I used. The elevation should only have a tiny impact anyway. I really don't know why the difference is there. Perhaps I will stumble upon it.

I do still feel that Uranus outweighs Saturn in this chart. Saturn may have a tight trine to the Sun, but Uranus has a tight conjunction to the SgrA* (galactic centre). Uranus experienced a serious boost through the whole month of this birth. Put simply: conjunctions are stronger than trines and the SgrA* delivers more power than the Sun. The big difference between the Sun's influence and that of the SgrA* is the tendency of the SgrA* to act like an outer planet. It's a large, distant power source that will require effort to coordinate.

My interpretations of the osculating lunar apogee (Lilith) are spiritually based. The point seems much more pleasant when viewed from a mundane, physical perspective. I find it's almost always indicative of spiritual dilemma and selfishness. This is why I feel that it deserves the name "Lilith" more than the hypothetical body or the asteroid.
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Mark said:
My interpretations of the osculating lunar apogee (Lilith) are spiritually based. The point seems much more pleasant when viewed from a mundane, physical perspective. I find it's almost always indicative of spiritual dilemma and selfishness. This is why I feel that it deserves the name "Lilith" more than the hypothetical body or the asteroid.

Surely this is not possible because it's a calculation of a non-physical point. It has no 'outer' substance, no consistency.
I would not refer to it as self-ish-ness rather than self-less-ness. From observation from 'everyday life' its position can convery a denial from Self of its qualites; a creative process that lies within but too often lays dormant because it does not relate to what is expected of Saturn society. That which 'ought to be' but never physically is.:biggrin:
When negatively expressed it can represent the demon(s) to be conquered, yet find its quality and it will turn one's Self into a much stronger entity.
But that's just me.:smile:
 

Mark

Well-known member
The whole purpose of tracking the point is, of course, to use the acquired knowledge to refine one's self. The osculating lunar apogee is that "realm" (perhaps better said as "context") within an individual that is going to be the most problematic and difficult to resolve. I've seen this manifest as a skill at which one is particularly good. It's the idea that, "I'm already good at this so you should listen to me," which perpetuates the selfishness. It's something like what the Greeks called hubris. The greatest obstacle to learning is what you think you already know. As the very old saying goes, "Those whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad with power." There is your motivation for learning what the apogee indicates. If you acquire resources, skills, or social influence without first conquering what is indicated by the apogee, you are on a path to your own destruction.

In the chart of a completely unselfish person, the context indicated by the apogee would have already been conquered and therefore would have already become useful, rather than problematic. This is also true of all the planets, signs, and aspects. Once the context indicated by the apogee has been conquered, you will have all the skill it entails, plus the awareness that selfish use of said skill would be nothing but destructive.

The Moon indicates many things regarding spiritual development. The osculating lunar apogee is not a physical body unto itself, but it is a quality of a physical body: the Moon. The apogee, just like the nodes, are qualities of lunar orbital dynamics. I must also assert that any and all changes within self are due to interaction between self and the Spirit. Any and all astrological information can only describe those changes, not cause them. It all boils down to the basic decision of whether to be selfless or selfish. That determines the big shifts in expression of astrological influences. It is my understanding that the context indicated by the apogee will be problematic until conquered and set right within self. When the change is made from selfish expression to selfless expression, then there will be a change in the manifestation of the influences in daily life.
 
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