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  #26  
Unread 07-07-2012, 07:29 PM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

Thank you PierceTV, I'm sure others will find that useful too. I'm reasonably young so I don't think I can pinpoint love or profession as a strong theme in my life yet. I thought about solar arcs also, as ever some people swear by them and others not at all.

One more piece of the puzzle, I pestered my dad and he said he thinks I pressed the eject button 'around 4-5am'. Add 6-8 hours for subsequent pregnancy and that's 10am-1pm. I've a new hospital letter written requesting as much detail as possible. I'll get this eventually.

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Unread 07-08-2012, 12:24 AM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Thank you PierceTV, I'm sure others will find that useful too. I'm reasonably young so I don't think I can pinpoint love or profession as a strong theme in my life yet. I thought about solar arcs also, as ever some people swear by them and others not at all.

One more piece of the puzzle, I pestered my dad and he said he thinks I pressed the eject button 'around 4-5am'. Add 6-8 hours for subsequent pregnancy and that's 10am-1pm. I've a new hospital letter written requesting as much detail as possible. I'll get this eventually.
If by that you mean to say that some consider you to have been born premature ...I believe it doesn't matter... but, that's only due to what limited experience I have in X number of charts I've done over the years.

In Dane Rudhyar's book that He co authored with his 4th and last wife, Leyla Rael, "Astrological Aspects', which was published in 1985 when He was 84 or 85 [he was born March 23, 1895]] he wrote that in all the years he'd been doing charts he only had two people in his files that had a 'Grand Semi-Sextile' [Star of Solomon] in their natal charts. I came across no less than six that I recall from late 2001 to early 2007 [as that was a 'special time' for me...in the situation and living arrangements that were in that time period.] and I seem to remember there may be as many as eight.
Although I don't know whether Dane includes the Asc. as a 'qualifier' for one of the six points as I do [and if he didn't, it was only due to his lack of experience with the matrix as to 'direct experience'..as I won't be dissuaded that it isn't...couldn't be dissuaded is the more correct term, in fact...and I also allow the Nodes and I don't know if Dane did..to that I may be in error...but even still that wouldn't be but one less from my total.].
It does come down to direct experience as far as what to truly believe...IMHO... you can only trust the so called Master Astrologers so far... [and there are some that are unable to follow them as far... and there's a couple/few of these so called Masters I don't think are worth following at all...but that's another thing altogether...or not.]

My astrological experience has been such that I'm fairly convinced that the birth time is...the moment the first breath is exhaled and the embryonic fluid is expelled... or what ever the nurses in the United States were basing these birth times on in the 1940s, 50s and 60s [as most of the charts I have done are for people in this age bracket...and was so nearly exclusively until I started these online endeavors in late 2008] seems to be right although I do believe that these nurses had a tendency to, 'round it up', as to the exact time...for the most part. Everything on birth certificates I've ever seen are only to 'the minute' and a difference of a minute amounts to... well, let me give my own as example...if not for you , as you have probably already figured this out for your own benefit..for anyone else that reads this that may wish to know.

I was born May 6 , 1953 in Glendale, [LA. Co.] Calif at, according to my birth certificate, 7:41 pm pdst.
A chart from astrodiest for that time produces and Asc. of 17* Scorpio 10' 22" and a M.C. of 24* Leo 20' 46". A chart for 7:40 pm [one minute earlier] produces an Asc. of 16* Scorpio 58' 01 and a M.C. of 24* Leo 05' 15".
That's 12' 21" difference between the Ascs. and 15' 31" for the M.C.s for 60 seconds of 'time'. Every 15 seconds rounded up that day around that time increased the error from true mark by 03' 04 plus" and the M.C. by 03' 48 plus"
When one is dealing with such subtle energies and sensitivities as the Sabian Symbols then it can be said that it's, "Nice to be Precise". Although in the matter of the two aforementioned Parts of mine they were so close to the cusp of the previous degree and given to the fact that these precepts of an influence given in form by the symbols do morph one into the next...as best as I can describe...or it may be best just to say, "Think analog not digital" as in "music recordings", as to how things in nature 'blend' one into the next.
I felt my M.C. shouldn't be changed nor my Part of Fortune at 24* Leo 58' 46" but the Asc. and Desc. symbol I never was truly comfortable with and allowed up to as much as need to be deducted there while retaining the integrity of the M.C. PoF. arrangement. This also change my Part of Hyleg from the 7th to the 6th degree of Capricorn and that was another symbol I had trouble dealing with as you can see for your self if you look up the 7th of Capricorn... It did however make mu Asc. and Part of Destiny 'One' ..and that's okay as either way I had the same symbol for the part of Destiny and it makes more sense to me to believe I was born what I was always destined to be... as one whom has lived through and seen what I have can only say...You got to live it to understand it [or believe it , for that matter.] ... either way...Part of Hyleg remaining the same or Asc. Part of Destiny being, 'One', it can, it does come off as pretty **** pretentious to most people...and I can't say I blame 'em either.

And "There's the Rub" trying to get people to recognize, accept their veracity and utilize the symbols in interpretation... somebody confronted by...say for example the 21st degree of Sagittarius as their Part of Destiny...described by Dane Rudhyar as [from his book "An Astrological Mandala"];

"A CHILD AND A DOG WEARING BORROWED EYEGLASSES.
KEYNOTE: The use of imagination and make-believe in anticipating higher stages of development....
[Dane's "Keyword{s} summation is...]
LEARNING THROUGH IMITATION."

...or something even more humble than that as there are symbols among the 360 that are...IMHO...
... People, for the most part in general, always seem to have pretty high opinions of themselves...and don't want to 'cop to' the truth... and the worst of them won't admit any validity to astrology at all! ...at least this has been my experience with Astrological analysis since I've been reading charts for people I know or knew the last 28 years... of whom nearly all were Americans and I hear we are the worst at being honest with ourselves...or 'way up there on the chart'.
one last thought..it did just occur to me that the Part of Catastrophe may be one to best judge if a chart needs rectification...at least those charts that willy only need enough time added or subtracted to change the degree of that Part to one lesser or greater.
My own Part......for President Obama, for 'Dubya'...they all are as obvious as the noses on our faces...[and if I may, once again mention, that Part of the same from the chart I've been claiming to be the true chart for Jesus/Yeshua
as the Part of Catastrophe for that chart is 27* Virgo 02' which is the 28th degree of Virgo and that is symbolized by the Sabians as [ibid.]:

"A BALDHEADED MAN WHO HAS SEIZED POWER.

KEYNOTE: The sheer power of personality in times that call for decision.

Whether at the religious or at the socio-political and cultural level there comes a time when obsolescent patterns of order and cultural refinement have to be radically and relentlessly challenged. Catabolic personages emerge to seize power and dictate decisions that alter the structures of society; or within an individual life, an intense urge for cathartic changes mobilizes the will, and traumatic decisions are made. At such times, the issue has to be met and, ruthless as the power may appear, it must be accepted..."

That's why I was able to 'dial in' the birth time as close as I did... I was set on Pluto on the Asc. that day but that allowed about 4 minutes of lee way...it possibly can go back still as long as the Part is at 27* Virgo 00' 01" and no less...
...that is... if you can see what I mean about the Part of Catastrophe being so fitting ,as to what we do know for certain [from most all accounts and legends] about the Mans life....as the degree previous has to do with exhibiting "cultural refinement" and the later degree not being nearly as believable as the 28th of Virgo is, as to the opinions of most folk and of no qualification at all to the rest.

I know that all this does little good for someone that only knows they were 'Born in the daytime' or during some span of time that stretches hours...but if nothing else it is one more speech ...appeal .... plea to all future parents...'Get the exact time and gps location of the birth of your babies!" ...as the gps issue is another thing I could go on about for a thousand words or more... See my contribution to 'The Correct natal chart for the modern nation of India for more about that..or what I've recently come up with and written about the natal chart for the nation of the USA..they both came down to my getting as precise a take on the actual capital of the time of the birth as it made 'THAT MUCH DIFFERENCE' of importance symbolically.

Eventually this will be understood, accepted and will utilized...and after that, until something even better for rectification comes along...if there be such ...there it will remain. [...IMHO...of course...]
I would just like to see it happen sooner than later...that's all.
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Unread 07-08-2012, 12:37 AM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

...and not to beat a subject to death,,,but I realized, just now, this is also a good example [by what I've written above...] to cajole all to start familiarizing your selves with as many of the Arabic Parts/Lots, Hermetic Lots, modern Astrological Parts [those that use the trans-Saturnian Planets] as much as you can stand to... for the more that you are sure of, or doubtful of on a natal chart in question,
allows that much more precision as to the rectification.
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Unread 07-08-2012, 07:11 AM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

Okay...just one last thing... a helpful hint for those of you interested in attempting this technique. Start with those Arabic Parts closest to the degree cusp in question and work your ways back or forward, depending, and once you've reached a degree for which the change in symbology seems inappropriate...there's where you need to stop...in all likely hood...as you may want to go ahead and go a couple of more...just in case you 'don't see it, but it's there' as to the one that seems inappropriate by the Sabian Symbol it changed to...

It does make the process so much smoother... just disregard the signs and go by the degree enumerations themselves... as every Part will be that much lesser or that much greater in regards to every other part. That's why i say to try to familiarize yourself with as many as possible... you might end up skipping the one that is closest to the cusp!


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Unread 07-08-2012, 02:42 PM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

Also, for anyone keen to explore the Animodar method of rectification briefly referred to amongst the OP comments there's an interesting discussion entitled "Rectification by Trutine of Hermes/Animodar" at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=822
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Unread 07-16-2012, 12:40 PM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

I had a fair bit of trouble using these methods to fine-tune rectification because Saturn TR conjunct my natal Moon a few years ago and that dominated everything for a long period. Transits to planets are easier for me to find than angles.
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Unread 07-27-2012, 01:40 AM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
I had a fair bit of trouble using these methods to fine-tune rectification because Saturn TR conjunct my natal Moon a few years ago and that dominated everything for a long period. Transits to planets are easier for me to find than angles.
Physical appearance indications are worth checking out as well http://reocities.com/athens/delphi/1601/physical.html
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Unread 07-27-2012, 02:00 AM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

Don't overlook the Vertex axis in rectification. It consistently shows up in unusual events and very often in events connected to relationships and events connected to death.

The most accurate rectification tool I have found is Age Harmonics, particularly Day Age Harmonics. These can rectify your birth time down to seconds.

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Unread 07-27-2012, 11:52 AM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

I'm not familiar with using either Alice, but I'll look into them!

p.s. JupiterASC, I just read that page about physical descriptions. Firstly, I note some very different and distinct interpretations than most authors! Well I gave it a shot anyway. I checked the decantes of each of my possible birth signs and none of them are even close, even reading in full planets in arc of the ascendant beneath. For e.g. for late Cancer rising, it mentions full, round eyes etc. but actually mine are fairly small and not so round. Another example might say plumb or short, I've average heights with a very defined body etc. Another might say high cheekbones or small hands with short fingers. Nope!

I haven't had much luck with solar arcs either. I think I'll just pay for a rectification; I've stared at my navel so long I can't tell the wood for the trees!

I will need all the tools I can get, my hospital said they are so understaffed that they may not be able to reply to the request at all.

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Unread 07-27-2012, 02:44 PM
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Arrow Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

re: link to Blavatsky chart at astrodatabank.
Monk, somehow the dot did not get included in the clickable part of the link you posted. Here is the correct link:
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/...sky,_Helena_P.

More on Blavatsky and her chart as summed up on this astrodatabank page:

If you read the source notes there you will see that in some quotations she gave her time of birth as nearer to midnight rather than sunrise. I don't know if this was a later or earlier period in her life, but I would take it to mean that she thought of herself as Gemini rising, not Cancer rising. In any case, I have no suspicion or notions of conspiracies of deceit.

Just a brief perusal of her biographical summary there gives a clear pictures of someone that does not at all fit the 19* Cancer Asc opp Neptune. She was incautious, a life-long globetrotter with no long-term place of residency. "...smoked incessantly and talked incessantly in a guttural voice, often witty and vulgar... cared not a hoot for convention and was humorous, impulsive and warm-hearted." In addition she married rather young (when Mars was in partile conjunction to her natal Sun) at age 17 and abruptly left her new husband within weeks. Not the behavior of a Cancer rising. In addition she showed early life brilliance with language skills, as well as a tendency to disappear from home to interact with "street ragamuffins."

This summary fits Gemini rising far more than a Cancer rising chart with ruler Moon in 4th. As the LMR source note describes, they gave her horoscope a time of shortly after midnight to put Gemini on the ASC (she talked incessantly) and the MC in Aquarius conjunct Jupiter, trine ASC. I will do one better than that. I suggest +/- 17GEM44 as the most likely Asc for her (depending on the exact birth place coordinates). This puts Jupiter and Uranus at the MC ~16 Aqua.

Rectification isn't a matter of birth times or the specificity thereof, nor of the prime meridian or matters of local time. Today's astrological computerized programs make the important conversions there. These other things are a matter for discussion of house systems, since effective Rectification by necessity focuses on obtaining the correct Asc degree (and minute) of arc so that there is actually a root point for intelligent discussion of the rest. The point in rectification is to get the correct, functioning Asc. Start with the signs.

Regarding Blavatsky, Rudhyar preferred a time that gave her Sirius rising: "probably around 2 AM, bringing the 13th or 14th degree of Cancer and the great star Sirius to the Eastern horizon of her birth-chart..." This is so unbelievably off the mark given the excellent biographical information and clearcut personality, but it makes my point about the importance of first getting the Asc in the correct sign. Then get more specific as to degree.

re: Sabian symbols

I have found these of no use whatsoever in rectification. They introduce another symbolic language of pictures more akin to tarot than anything in astrology. It is like using bits of Russian to try to clarify the exact meanings of Greek words. Yes, they may both be Cyrillic, but it just creates confusion. Not only that, but for something as specific as the Asc of a person's natal horoscope Sabian symbols are not specific, but always general and mostly vague.

Better to rely on the very distinct planetary energies for specificity in dealing with the Asc by looking at potential planetary aspects in both longitude and declination. Reliance on Sabian symbols or any other method of attempting to interpret a single degree arc without reference to what planets are involved on that particular day is to look for an 'easy money' solution.

re: Trutine of Hermes

This touts something that cannot be verified by ordinary means. When we are rectifying for a valid, authentic Ascendant, we must use events and information gathered outside the field of astrology and especially its sub-mythologies, of which the Trutine is part. The very exacting, rigorous work of Alexander Marr relating to the principle of the pre-natal epoch, a birth chart must first be rectified and validated in order to even obtain it. So trying to use the Trutine (which aims to produce the pre-natal epoch) as a rectification tool is to put the cart before the horse.

There are no special tricks to consistent, effective rectification. These tricks are attempts to short-cut the obvious challenge of rectification. Use a common sense approach of:

1. Get as definite a time range as you can, but don't take it literally. Byjove, this means I would use a time range from 5 hours previous to the hospital's recorded 'time of birth' to 6 hours after it that your mother gives. Keep the time range wide enough to account for human error.

2. Determine the correct Asc sign by looking at your personality and physical traits. Consider good, complete sources of information for this. Please don't waste your time with physiognomy drawings of gnarled half-beast caricatures supposed to represent humans or on other over-simplifications.

3. Once you've got the Asc sign that fits, look at the possible planetary aspects in both longitude and declination. They are equally important. If step 2 drove you nuts, then don't bother with this one. Just use a mid-sign chart. In order to be serious at rectification and expect to actually arrive at accurate results you must get used to considering the parallel (P) and contra-parallel (CP) aspects. For some charts they won't be relevant, but you won't know until the final result. Assume they are.

4. Validate the chart first by making sure that the MC/IC axis fits your parents. If a daytime chart the IC/4th=father; if nighttime chart MC/10th=father. Secondly, by journaling all transits, particularly by fire planets Sun-Mars-Jupiter, angular to your Asc. Describe in ordinary terms what is happening, but pay attention especially to activity, energy level and assertiveness, which is what these transits most involve. My validation standards are far stricter. I use only secondary progressions with house cusps calculated by the method of Naibod arc of Right Ascension: Standards for the validation of birth horoscopes
The most important factor is using very tight, single minutes of arc orbs only for these progressed aspects and they must involve the correct horoscopic rulers specific to that chart for the event, the only exceptions being if a mundane ruler is involved in a very tight aspect.

Any astrologer that consistently gets the Asc correct within a few degrees is a very good rectifier. Most professional astrologers who attempt the task cannot do this. The reasons are twofold: poor understanding of the 12 rising signs and not referencing declinations. In fact, most professional astrologers are inconsistent at best, and at worst laughable at it. Just look at the above example by Rudhyar preferring a Cancer rising chart for Blavatsky, even though that sign clearly did not fit her, simply because it put the fixed star Sirius at the Asc. Seriously!? This is the most common problem - overspecifying before all information is fully considered. I've done it. It's easy to do, but it is still poor practice.

I'm about to put up a permanent Rectification page on my site, but it will probably not include any sort of tutorial since it is for the masses, not for astrologers. It has been my experience that sometimes a (lay)person can rectify their own chart pretty effectively when relatively minor adjustments are called for like bumping forward to the beginning of the next sign that fits them better, or pushing the Asc back a few degrees to a planet they strongly relate to that shouldn't be missing a conjunction/parallel to the Asc. I also find that most of the time people just get confused in the process.

I may decide to use an example or two with charts that demonstrate vital principles, but there are other factors relating to the hyperdimensional science of astrology that I am more interested in.

Peace... and happy rectifying.
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Unread 07-27-2012, 05:21 PM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

Here is the link to my blog post on Blavatsky's birth chart. Mystery solved.

Helena Blavatsky validated birth horoscope
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Unread 07-27-2012, 05:23 PM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

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I think I'll just pay for a rectification; I've stared at my navel so long I can't tell the wood for the trees!

Different rectification experts may have different opinions as to your exact time of birth...
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Unread 07-27-2012, 05:37 PM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
p.s. JupiterASC, I just read that page about physical descriptions. Firstly, I note some very different and distinct interpretations than most authors! Well I gave it a shot anyway. I checked the decantes of each of my possible birth signs and none of them are even close, even reading in full planets in arc of the ascendant beneath. For e.g. for late Cancer rising, it mentions full, round eyes etc. but actually mine are fairly small and not so round. Another example might say plumb or short, I've average heights with a very defined body etc. Another might say high cheekbones or small hands with short fingers. Nope!
That's most intriguing byjove... particularly since OryxExtinct who like you has an uncertain birthtime, found that one of the physical descriptions - on the link I posted that you refer to at http://reocities.com/athens/delphi/1601/physical.html - is a great match. Here's a link to the discussion at http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=52875

Adds to the mystery of astrology
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Unread 07-31-2012, 12:33 AM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

I finally got around to trying to rectify my own birth chart, even though I have a military birth certificate. On another thread way back I tried a chart with an ASC corrected for local apparent time, but that didn't seem to work any better than what I had to start with. Now let me just say that the time only moves back by a minute and a half or so, but that could make a difference when timing transits and directions.

One of the methods I believe outlined in the OP was to use exact times of specific events. Rather than having to wait for several new notable events to occur, and actually try to remember the times, I used the births of my three children since I know pretty close to exactly when they were born. I have all the particulars down, but I wanted to share a few things that I noticed.

The way I knew the ASC and MC degrees were just a teensy bit off was because the day my oldest was born (her) Venus was sextile my ASC, off just by 16'. This also made the sextile from (her) Venus to the cusp of my 5th off by 16'. Also, (her) transiting PoF conjuncted my MC/IC axis by a difference of 18'.

With number two, (her) Venus trined my Sun by a difference of 18', with (her) Sun conjunct my MC by a difference of 29'. Meanwhile, my Saturn (ruler of the 5th) was sextile (her) transiting PoF by a different of 29', and trine Mercury by 35'.

Lastly, with three, her North Node was opposing my Jupiter by 20' and sextile the cusp of my 5th by 20'.

By adjusting my stated time of birth, 8:15, to 8:13 the aspects to the AC and MC lined up pretty close to perfectly, as did the aspects to the PoF. The reason I think including aspects to PoF is important is because fortune is the physical body, and fortune can only be found using the degree of the ASC.

A couple of things that I did notice when using childbirth to track timing of transits. In all the cases the nodal axis was activated, either my natal by transit, or transiting nodes to natal points. Also, in all cases the angles were involved, of course, as were the lights (funny enough, aspects to natal Sun for both daytime births and Moon for the nighttime one, with the middle daughter aspecting both lights.) Venus in two, but in all three the cusp of the 5th, or the ruler of the 5th played a role with an extremely close aspect. Lastly, Jupiter was involved in close aspect in all three.
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Unread 07-31-2012, 01:05 AM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

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Lastly, Jupiter was involved in close aspect in all three.
Interesting that Vettius Valens states:
"... Jupiter rules childbearing... of the internal parts Jupiter rules the uterus"


I note your natal Moon is Tropical Pisces and therefore Jupiter ruled

Venus, your ascendant ruler is the Exaltation ruler of Pisces

Furthermore, while the Moon is the Domicile ruler of your MC, Jupiter is the Exalted ruler of your MC
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

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Interesting that Vettius Valens states:
"... Jupiter rules childbearing... of the internal parts Jupiter rules the uterus"

I note your natal Moon is Tropical Pisces and therefore Jupiter ruled

Venus, your ascendant ruler is the Exaltation ruler of Pisces

Furthermore, while the Moon is the Domicile ruler of your MC, Jupiter is the Exalted ruler of your MC
And Venus joys in the 5th. I love seeing traditional rulerships in action, and I especially love seeing the concept of exaltation rulers having practical value. When else is a mother most exalted, than when giving birth?
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Unread 07-31-2012, 01:32 AM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

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And Venus joys in the 5th. I love seeing traditional rulerships in action, and I especially love seeing the concept of exaltation rulers having practical value. When else is a mother most exalted, than when giving birth?
Exactly - IMO fwiw, when the timing of a birth is accurate THEN 'star talk' is precise, accurate and even poetic re: descriptiveness
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The way I knew the ASC and MC degrees were just a teensy bit off was because the day my oldest was born (her) Venus was sextile my ASC, off just by 16'. This also made the sextile from (her) Venus to the cusp of my 5th off by 16'. Also, (her) transiting PoF conjuncted my MC/IC axis by a difference of 18'.

With number two, (her) Venus trined my Sun by a difference of 18', with (her) Sun conjunct my MC by a difference of 29'. Meanwhile, my Saturn (ruler of the 5th) was sextile (her) transiting PoF by a different of 29', and trine Mercury by 35'
fwiw IMO tsmall, MC ruler as well as aspects to MC/IC axis may well relate to changes in perception of you by the public - i.e. because you now appear as a mother.

Likewise changes/transformations involving roots/ancestry/the home
reflect aspects to the IC
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Lastly, with three, her North Node was opposing my Jupiter by 20' and sextile the cusp of my 5th by 20'....

A couple of things that I did notice when using childbirth to track timing of transits. In all the cases the nodal axis was activated, either my natal by transit, or transiting nodes to natal points.
I remember discussion on another thread regarding the many eclipse connections your chart has tsmall and of course the Nodal axis is linked to both solar and lunar eclipses
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Unread 07-31-2012, 02:11 AM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

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re: Trutine of Hermes

This touts something that cannot be verified by ordinary means. When we are rectifying for a valid, authentic Ascendant, we must use events and information gathered outside the field of astrology and especially its sub-mythologies, of which the Trutine is part. The very exacting, rigorous work of Alexander Marr relating to the principle of the pre-natal epoch, a birth chart must first be rectified and validated in order to even obtain it. So trying to use the Trutine (which aims to produce the pre-natal epoch) as a rectification tool is to put the cart before the horse
.

Do you have Marr's book Kannon? I had book 3 many, many years ago, which covered his work with the Pre-natal epoch, but discarded it because as far as my memory goes he didn't check out two very important pre-requistes before he started his research.

A. he didn't check if the births were natural i.e. no medical assistance. As the Tritune can't work at all if the birth wasn't natural I questioned his whole data.
B. he didn't check if the child was conceived in the same place as (s)he was born. This strongly affects the time between conception and birth.

Now I would like to go over his work again both to see if my memory is correct and to check his system, but can't find the book anywhere.

I agree that you need to have close to an exact time of birth before the Tritune of Hermes is accurate. I also work with the Parallax Moon, which can change the data at times.

Alice
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Unread 07-31-2012, 12:21 PM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

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One of the methods I believe outlined in the OP was to use exact times of specific events. Rather than having to wait for several new notable events to occur, and actually try to remember the times, I used the births of my three children since I know pretty close to exactly when they were born. I have all the particulars down, but I wanted to share a few things that I noticed.

The way I knew the ASC and MC degrees were just a teensy bit off was because the day my oldest was born (her) Venus was sextile my ASC, off just by 16'. This also made the sextile from (her) Venus to the cusp of my 5th off by 16'. Also, (her) transiting PoF conjuncted my MC/IC axis by a difference of 18'.

With number two, (her) Venus trined my Sun by a difference of 18', with (her) Sun conjunct my MC by a difference of 29'. Meanwhile, my Saturn (ruler of the 5th) was sextile (her) transiting PoF by a different of 29', and trine Mercury by 35'
PoF is considered most important in Hellenistic as well as traditional astrology. In fact the Education Board of this forum has guidance from Ray Austin entitled "The Five Lots of Fate, Success, Your Fortune Chart http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=13197

Thank you for sharing these clear verifications of the basic method because fwiw IMO many basic as well as important astrological principles are highlighted by your data
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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Lastly, with three, her North Node was opposing my Jupiter by 20' and sextile the cusp of my 5th by 20'.

By adjusting my stated time of birth, 8:15, to 8:13 the aspects to the AC and MC lined up pretty close to perfectly, as did the aspects to the PoF. The reason I think including aspects to PoF is important is because fortune is the physical body, and fortune can only be found using the degree of the ASC.

A couple of things that I did notice when using childbirth to track timing of transits. In all the cases the nodal axis was activated, either my natal by transit, or transiting nodes to natal points. Also, in all cases the angles were involved, of course, as were the lights (funny enough, aspects to natal Sun for both daytime births and Moon for the nighttime one, with the middle daughter aspecting both lights.) Venus in two, but in all three the cusp of the 5th, or the ruler of the 5th played a role with an extremely close aspect. Lastly, Jupiter was involved in close aspect in all three.
Interesting also that the two sect lights, as Hellenistic astrologers designated the Sun and the Moon, are highlighted according to whether the births took place at night or in the day time. Interesting as well that for one of the three births, both sect lights play a leading role.

Sect is an Hellenistic concept.
I did post some comments on sect previously on another thread and for those interested here's a basic explanation of sect that I gleaned information Robert Schmidts Project Hindsight work on Valens as well as from Professor Riley's translation of Valens http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf and the ACT astrology forum at
http://actastrology.com/viewforum.php?f=4 is a mine of useful and reliable information
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The Hellenistic Concept of Sect: Sect is just one word for a group of people with a common interest forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice. e.g. a political party or faction united by common interests or beliefs especially concerned with their own narrow interests . Some planets belong to one sect, and some to the other. The two sects are diurnal and nocturnal – i.e. day and night.

The Sun is the leader of the diurnal sect, and the planets in that sect are Saturn and Jupiter.

The Moon is the leader of the nocturnal sect, and the planets in that sect are Mars and Venus.

If Mercury rises before the Sun—if he’s a morning star—then Mercury belongs to the diurnal sect.

But if Mercury sets after the Sun—if he’s an evening star—then Mercury belongs to the nocturnal sect.


So, those are the two sects, their leaders, and their members.

What sect signifies
What is meant by “being in sect” or “being in the sect of favour” is simply that planets are happiest if they are in an area of a natal chart that is in sync with their sect

So, for example, a nocturnal Mars is not going to be too happy in a diurnal chart and a diurnal Saturn is not going to be too happy in a nocturnal chart.

Similarly, in politics, two sects such as the Republicans and the Democrats each want to be in power and are unhappy and could potentially cause disruption for the other elected opposition party.


In the booklet "Night & Day, Planetary sect in Astrology", Robert Hand writes on page 6, second paragraph: "Although no ancient writing ever states this explicitly, it would seem from these writings that the most important of these relationships is that a planet is of the same sect as the chart. Diurnal planets work best in diurnal charts and nocturnal planets in nocturnal charts. That the condition of the chart is the most important of these three sect factors can be inferred from the fact that many of the Greek texts only mention the charts diurnal or nocturnal status in relation to the sect of the planet. Little is said about the agreement of the sect of the planet with that of the sign or placement".
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Unread 08-04-2012, 03:13 AM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

I know some of the iron-clad events that people frequently rectify successfully with include child birth, marriage, deaths etc. what else would rank as a priority for rectification? Would many of the events listed in the opening post act has lesser guides? I might be footloose and fancy free for a while longer...
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Unread 08-18-2012, 10:55 PM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

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I know some of the iron-clad events that people frequently rectify successfully with include child birth, marriage, deaths etc. what else would rank as a priority for rectification? Would many of the events listed in the opening post act has lesser guides? I might be footloose and fancy free for a while longer...
Did you mean this section of the opening post byjove?
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As a result of questions on a thread at this link http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=51377 and because IMO it is common knowledge amongst astrologers that checking a natal chart for correlations with transits is a basic requirement for all charts because the basic requirement is that any natal chart is a 'working chart', this is a thread for anyone interested in very basic chart rectification.

BASIC STEPS
List major life events such as academic rewards, degree, diplomas, exams passed, operations, hospital admissions of any kind, accidents, relocation to a new home, relocation abroad, marriages, divorces, births, deaths, starting first job, leaving old job, starting new job, anything important.


When looking back at transits for major events in life, as well as noting all aspects from transiting planets to the angles, remember to note in particular aspects from all the rulers of the ASC/MC/IC/DESC to other planets as well as to the angles themselves

If you focus on the seven visible planets to begin with, then you'll find that you have more than enough aspects to cope with - especially if you have many exact dates of events to check!

Btw
exclude dates that are "give or take a couple of weeks" as being totally too inaccurate!

Specific dates for major events
means the actual exact day as well as the precise time of the occurrence
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Unread 08-19-2012, 03:26 AM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

Yeah, even though I'm past my college years, I still can't say I've done many of those things. If I were given that list to fill to aid rectification, I wouldn't be helpful.

The most sailient features of my life so far are likely success in personal goals. For now, they don't generally include much on that list.

I just thought I'd add that I have a genuine interest in these tips, both for myself and for future practice of astrology - I'm not trying to be difficult! So I'm all eyes and ears here.

Last edited by byjove; 08-19-2012 at 03:29 AM.
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Unread 09-02-2012, 04:12 PM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

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I just thought I'd add that I have a genuine interest in these tips, both for myself and for future practice of astrology - I'm not trying to be difficult! So I'm all eyes and ears here.
Thanks byjove, the ascendant is a perennially intriguing subject! Worth also mentioning that even within the same race there are differences of skin tone and eye colour

It's not unusual for children of the same race to be fairer or darker complexioned than their siblings.

So within the race of white/whitish people some siblings are darker/lighter complexioned than others and likewise within the race of black/blackish people some siblings are darker/lighter complexioned than others

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Physical appearance indications are worth checking out as well http://reocities.com/athens/delphi/1601/physical.html
Focusing on height, weight, bone structure, eye colour gives overall good results

Black people with Blue eyes and other ethnicities Parts 1 and 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vhW7rR6VDg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCPBpCWm89Y

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Unread 10-22-2012, 11:24 AM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

News!

A few months ago, before I even considered rectification, I contacted my hospital for a long version of a birth report of my birth day. After indicating that they were so busy and underfunded that I may not received news at all, today I received it.

On a copy of the original report, it clearly says 12.04. So, after investigating further, the hospital held the same time and it's quite specific.

I'm going to disregard human memory in this case, a hospital record is far more reliable than family members' memories. (They all have a different time anyway) I opened the case originally to see if there was an inaccuracy of 5/10 minutes or so, not expecting more.

Case closed, wuhoo!
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Unread 10-22-2012, 12:52 PM
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Re: Rectification Tips - Verifying Ascendant/Descendant/MC/IC angles

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News!
A few months ago, before I even considered rectification, I contacted my hospital for a long version of a birth report of my birth day. After indicating that they were so busy and underfunded that I may not received news at all, today I received it.

On a copy of the original report, it clearly says 12.04. So, after investigating further, the hospital held the same time and it's quite specific.

I'm going to disregard human memory in this case, a hospital record is far more reliable than family members' memories. (They all have a different time anyway) I opened the case originally to see if there was an inaccuracy of 5/10 minutes or so, not expecting more.

Case closed, wuhoo!
Good news indeed byjove... or 'Hercule Poirot' perhaps!

Wonderful to have an official record and as you say one expects to allow 5/10 minutes or so in any event.

12:04 is rather happily specific.

Your story is an excellent 'cautionary tale' regarding memory... although having said that, 'tis worth also noting that occasionally, memories are amazingly accurate
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